Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Spanish Eyes

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

No, he is really disliked here in the UK, where I am anyway.. think we are all sick of the Tory show. A weak opposition means many feel trapped with the Tories and stuck with their bungling methods of non transparent game playing and selling the country out to save themselves, their fantasies and their party. It's sickening.

I hope the EU forces them to take a long extension and allow time for some voice of sanity to come along and rise above the rabble.

So why is he portrayed as the next Tory PM (assuming that all works out re elections and so on)?

I am glad to hear he is dismissed by most intelligent people, but from my world view he seems to be top of the list. I just shake my head now and wonder why.

But it is not my country, so I will desist from saying much more.

ShooterSF

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Funny that you say that. Met with some UK people earlier today, and they are so embarrassed by all this. Whether that was for my benefit or not I am not sure, but the subject was moved on to something else sharpish. Very telling.

The unfortunate thing is, that the hubris of SOME in UK now is nauseous to me anyway, they know what they want, but cannot justify the consequences of it, nor do they care as long as the retrieve their borders, their sovereignty ( thought they have that already), and control of immigration etc.

The irony is, that the immigrant issue that they are so exercised about has nothing to do with Free Movement within the EU.

I fear for those who have not analysed all this. But that sounds arrogant, not meant to be, just a reaction to all I have seen and heard already.

I don't think freedom of movement is a bad thing but for those that are anti-immigration 8 of the top 10bu populous non-british nationals in the UK are from the EU so it kinda does no?

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1113166400993067009

This day is far from over. A lot of unhappy Tories throwing their toys out of the pram. Will the cabinet force her hand?

Professor Moriarty

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1113166400993067009

This day is far from over. A lot of unhappy Tories throwing their toys out of the pram. Will the cabinet force her hand?

Half of them might resign. The Brexiteer half.

Mr.Wemmick

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

So why is he portrayed as the next Tory PM (assuming that all works out re elections and so on)?

I am glad to hear he is dismissed by most intelligent people, but from my world view he seems to be top of the list. I just shake my head now and wonder why.

But it is not my country, so I will desist from saying much more.

Because the public don't get a say, the tories do. This is why they don't want a 2nd Ref. or a GE, they might lose the control. Johnson would not be singing his Churchill song and thumping his chest if he didn't think he had an audience.

Political showmanship and he's good at it. Yet the country needs the likes of Dominic Grieve not Saturday night at the Palladium.

EKRIUQ

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1113166400993067009

This day is far from over. A lot of unhappy Tories throwing their toys out of the pram. Will the cabinet force her hand?

Tough they had their chance, they can wait until the 12 month period is up.

force eleven

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Your contribution is very interesting.

Please elaborate just how the EU is stopping the UK from leaving!?

They want the UK to have a second vote. This is what Macron advocated as lately as today. The UK has voted. We know the result. Why must every EU referendum that goes against their goals end up being repeated. This is my point. Regardless of how you believe it should have went, ultimately the EU do not want nor an afford the UK to leave.

LeinsterDub

EKRIUQ wrote: »

Tough they had their chance, they can wait until the 12 month period is up.

They can always vote no confidence in the government.

Professor Moriarty

Great line from the Matt cartoon in The Telegraph:

A good guide to what happens next is to ask yourself how could this get any worse.

prawnsambo

force eleven wrote: »

They want the UK to have a second vote. This is what Macron advocated as lately as today. The UK has voted. We know the result. Why must every EU referendum that goes against their goals end up being repeated. This is my point. Regardless of how you believe it should have went, ultimately the EU do not want nor an afford the UK to leave.

No. He said that's what the EuCo would grant a long extension for among other things. And since when is it not allowed for the EU to have a negotiating position?

LeinsterDub

force eleven wrote: »

They want the UK to have a second vote. This is what Macron advocated as lately as today. The UK has voted. We know the result. Why must every EU referendum that goes against their goals end up being repeated. This is my point. Regardless of how you believe it should have went, ultimately the EU do not want nor an afford the UK to leave.

The UK can leave tomorrow if they want. It's the UK which delayed in order to get a deal. The EU will not go bankrupt without the UK. It will be fine.

EKRIUQ

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They can always vote no confidence in the government.

They could but in the current atmosphere I don't think their going to chance a general election.

Headshot

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They can always vote no confidence in the government.

They don't want a GE and the possibility of JC in charge and Brexit going altogether

joe40

Just catching up on the day's events, but if ERG and co are pissed off, it must be a positive development.
I know plenty can happen yet though

ShooterSF

force eleven wrote: »

They want the UK to have a second vote. This is what Macron advocated as lately as today. The UK has voted. We know the result. Why must every EU referendum that goes against their goals end up being repeated. This is my point. Regardless of how you believe it should have went, ultimately the EU do not want nor an afford the UK to leave.

I'd imagine they want them to pass the deal they negotiated...

What with this clown, Corbyn, the 48% of the UK electorate which voted to remain in the EU have no political leadership in their parliament. How long will it take the pro-EU people to mobilise to create a new realignment in British politics? Their two main parties are two sides of the same coin, and that 48% have no political party to represent them. A joke democracy that so many are disenfranchised and accepting it.

Remember the Liberal Party was once the main opposition to the Tories until Labour successfully overthrew it. Two party system or not, Labour can be overthrown from its position by a pro-EU/progressive party. But that 48% has not mobilsed into supporting a pro-EU party. They actually deserve little sympathy for letting the ignorant and the undereducated beat them.

ancapailldorcha

Boris Johnson will almost certainly not be the next Prime Minister. Once upon a time, he was en route to being the sort of Tory a lefty could be forgiven for voting for. He had his own brand of charisma, experience as London's Mayor (despite spaffing away mountains of taxpayers' money) and a reputation for being an intellectual. The problem is that his backing Brexit simply to position himself as the next PM and then burning his own campaign through his own laziness and lack of discipline and organisational ability have killed his bungling Boris facade for good. Sure, the Tory right and membership might still love him but he's toxic from the centre-right leftwards. Millenials won't be forgetting his actions any time soon as they're about to be stripped of their rights to live and work abroad simply because Boris felt entitled to be Prime Minister because reasons.

Next election, what will the Conservatives run on? Strong Economy? Controlling Immigration? Getting out of the ECJ? Boris Johnson's Funhouse? If Labour ditch Corbyn, they all but guaranteed No. 10. If not, they're in with a fighting chance. Johnson's carefully maintained gaffe-prone but well-meaning bungling buffoon persona has been stripped away exposing a truly ugly and venal person underneath.

Capt'n Midnight

briany wrote: »

I was talking about the scenario where the EU accepts May's proposal of extending to the 22nd for talks with Labour, which is, admittedly, highly unlikely-looking.

Look at Spain and the Catalan thing.

The EU doesn't interfere in internal politics.
So unlikely to grant short extension for internal politics , elections etc.

I could see a short extension for referendum because EU citizens. But only for a very clear question and guarantee that it would be acted upon. And zero chance if it's for something the EU has already rejected. No unicorns. No defining a negotiating position.

Dampsquid

Have mixed feelings about this, is she doing this to get the hard brexiteers in her party to finally switch over and vote for her deal - now that they see the alternative.

Or is she doing this to countdown the clock to next week, then announce no agreement with Labour and they leave with no deal on the 12th.

I cant see her going all this way and backing down at the last moment, she gave no indication to date that she would compromise and seek cross party support, or go with a softer brexit.

If there is not mass resignation in her cabinet by lunch time tomorrow, then there is something else going on in the background.

Brexit has always been about the Tory party.

Hurrache

EKRIUQ wrote: »

Tough they had their chance, they can wait until the 12 month period is up.

Absolutely, and I reckon that's a large part of May's reasoning too.

Her own party had the chance and could come up with nothing several times over.

Water John

There are various strands to what May offered. She knows almost no chance of the 22nd May target. She wants to ensnare Corbyn whilst at the same time hoping he may save her Deal in some form.
Corbyn quite right not to reveal his hand. What he wants and especially his rating those desires. May is now very weak, or she might be just on Groundhog Day, meeting Corbyn without good faith.

Irishmale0399

The big question here is will the EU accept the request for yet another extension without any solid basis. The elections are coming fast and surely if the UK was to take part they would need at least 2-3 weeks prep in Brussels and London.

Capt'n Midnight

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Great line from the Matt cartoon in The Telegraph:

A good guide to what happens next is to ask yourself how could this get any worse.

In fairness some of those are funny because they are true.

And don't forget to put your Brexit clocks BACK 12 months.


And this one from 3 years ago
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/31/best-of-matt/

BluePlanet

The reality is that TM knew there was no support from her own bench ages ago, she should have reached across the aisle way back then.

bob mcbob

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Great line from the Matt cartoon in The Telegraph:

A good guide to what happens next is to ask yourself how could this get any worse.

A good one on the BBC too -

Boris Johnson has told the BBC that people want politicians in Westminster “not to focus on themselves, but to focus on the needs of the country"

Infini

Honestly I'm of the opinion the UK is utterly screwed thanks purely to the utter incompetence and stupidity of the Tories and the utter fools of the Delusional Unionist Party. They simply are too divided, too entrenched and too stupid politically to care about any of the consequences of leaving with no deal but they won't get very far should it happen next week.

Sad thing about all this is normal Brit's who didnt want any of this are getting dragged down the toilet with these waster's and they're the one's going to suffer for it. I honesty think the like's of Boris and that are only giving out shít and whinging about losing Brexit because they're intentionally wishing to cause this whole thing to profit personally and financially from the chaos and I hope someday the miserable bastards actions come back to bite them hard and land em a nice spot in a prison somewhere. Ultimately I hope the Tories at least suffer the same fate Electorially as Fianna Fall did 8 years ago and the corrupt trash that caused this are turfed out.

Ultimately the short term pain for us will be offset by the fact we've been preparing for this possibility from day 1 of all this and possibly the mid term possibility of a United Ireland. It would be the ultimate irony and comeuppance for the DUP who caused all this purely by being pigheaded idiots and abandoning all responsibility that their reason for existence was denied by their own stupidity. I also hope that the businesses and farmers who've pulled their backing from them causes them to implode: Idiots like them are unfit for any sort of power expecially those who put their own selfish interest before the common good and blow off concerns with "send em to the chippy".

I honestly hope Scotland get's it's independence the 2nd time around as well. Westminster has been shown to be completely diregardful of their concerns as well and their interests are better served by being independent. At least they'll likely regain EU membership quickly if they become independent as they got dragged out against their will and if they do those who want to might consider moving to Scotland as well instead of waiting for "Little England" to cop the hell on and realise what an utter fool their rump of a country was for all this.

Honestly unless they turn around and announce a 2nd referendum by the end of next week the UK is gone, I cannot see other's in Europe wanting to prolong the inevitable there comes a point where the price for vainglorious stupidity has to be paid and the political establishment in the UK needs to be held to account for THEIR incompetence and noone elses as all this is caused and originates in their broken system of government. The EU also has it's own issues and problems and cannot indefinately allow itself to be distracted by a bunch of incompetent clowns. All this chaos, pain and suffering just because the UK's polticial class couldn't get their head's out of their ásses and allowed a minority of braindead vainglorious bastards have their way instead of putting the common good first. Human Stupidity is truly the cancer of this existence.

ToBeFrank123

Depending on the ERG and DUP was never a viable option. Both are a bunch of timewasters who love to be centre of attention. They are the problem children of the HoC.
Hopefully May and Corbyn can strike a deal.

You know you are on the right track when the ERG and DUP aren't happy.

PokeHerKing

BluePlanet wrote:

The reality is that TM knew there was no support from her Parliament ages ago, she should have reached across the aisle way back then.

I think TM has proved time and again she has zero situational awareness.

It's her biggest weakness but also her greatest strength.

Professor Moriarty

PokeHerKing wrote: »

I think TM has proved time and again she has zero situational awareness.

It's her biggest weakness but also her greatest strength.

I think it's more that she put Tory party unity before all else.

Spanish Eyes

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think it's more that she put Tory party unity before all else.

So far anyway, but that will unravel now no matter what, it seems. No win situation.

Anyway, surely she is the PM of the UK, not the Tories. The good of the country should be the raison d'etre.