Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

VinLieger

Seth Brundle wrote: »

MoD confirms some of it's staff don't favour Corbyn...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/unacceptable-video-shows-british-soldiers-shooting-corbyn-target-1.3848028

How stupid do you have to be to first allow yourself be videoed doing that and secondly to then put it online thinking there would be no repercussions

Seth Brundle

VinLieger wrote: »

How stupid do you have to be to first allow yourself be videoed doing that and secondly to then put it online thinking there would be no repercussions

When did the British army ever recruit intelligent people?

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

Laois_Man wrote: »

Is there a single example of Theresa May outmaneuvering anyone, ever?

She has been embarrassment after embarrassment after embarrassment since becoming PM

I'd say the same thing about Corbyn though. It'll be like two wet paper bags negotiating with eachother.

theguzman

VinLieger wrote: »

How stupid do you have to be to first allow yourself be videoed doing that and secondly to then put it online thinking there would be no repercussions

I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

robinph

Laois_Man wrote: »

Is there a single example of Theresa May outmaneuvering anyone, ever?

She has been embarrassment after embarrassment after embarrassment since becoming PM

Well, when I say outmanoeuvre what is actually meant is that she'll stand behind her red lines and blame everyone else for not agreeing with them. There won't be any actual manoeuvring happening on her part.

She'll stand her ground and not budge, then blame others for not budging.

DrumSteve

robinph wrote: »

Well, when I say outmanoeuvre what is actually meant is that she'll stand behind her red lines and blame everyone else for not agreeing with them. There won't be any actual manoeuvring happening on her part.

She'll stand her ground and not budge, then blame others for not budging.

Its weird how her intransigence is seen as a positive in some quarters.

Laois_Man

theguzman wrote: »

I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

But the media also pontificate and tell everyone what to think about Corbyn to a level of ridiculousness right down to the coverage over how much much he bowed or didn't bow his head when laying a wreath on remembrance day! He won't engage in a debate on BBC because he knows there's no chance in hell that he'd be getting a fair hearing.

I'd like to see some evidence of the royals opinions on Brexit. Is there any?

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

Labour MP on BBC news now saying that it's the will of 90% of Labour party members that there is a confirmatory vote on any deal... "it is our clear policy" so he couldn't imagine that Corbyn will agree to anything with May that isn't subject to a confirmatory vote.

So, potentially we could lose Corbyn from this as well if he agrees anything without confirmatory vote?

Water John

Why do you think Barclay was out this morning flagging the confirmatory ballot as a difficult issue? Obviously trying to put a wedge between Corbyn and the majority of Lb voters and MPs.

VinLieger

theguzman wrote: »

I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

I don't even know where to begin with this conspiracy theory laden nonsense but ill give it a go.


Firstly "erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror" are both a direct result of conservative right wing agendas. Also the majority of mass media in the UK is incredibly conservative and the likes of the daily mail, telegraph and express readers seem to have no problem listening to elites like Boris, Mogg, Farage et al as long as they are saying stuff they agree with. Im not even acknoledging your other 2 points due to how ridiculous they are.


Anyone who believes brexit, trump etc are symptoms of a singular issue like pushing back against a left wing agenda need to really get off breitbart and T_D as both issues are so incredibly more complex than that.


You really think this video was a well planed MOD PR exercise and that the British army supported by the Royal family would actually try to launch a coup against Corbyn if he were elected PM? The conspiracy theory forum is here


Finally please give proof that the royal family supported brexit that is not a link to a bias source misrepresenting facts akin to the Mail, Telegraph or express

ancapailldorcha

theguzman wrote: »

I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

Have you sources for any of this?

hill16bhoy

Seth Brundle wrote: »

MoD confirms some of it's staff don't favour Corbyn...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/unacceptable-video-shows-british-soldiers-shooting-corbyn-target-1.3848028

Mainstream right-wing politics and media across the world have an extremely serious hate speech problem.

An even bigger problem is that all of the people involved either don't see it as a problem at all, or don't see that they could possibly have anything whatsoever to do with the problem.

CelticRambler

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Honest question, why the hell didnt the UK decide what kind of Brexit they wanted BEFORE triggering article 50?

Same reason they didn't decide what Brexit meant before putting it to a referendum - it was never meant to happen. The whole fiasco was an exercise in megaphone "diplomacy" between two right-wing factions of the English political establishment.

Since the referendum, and especially since the triggering of Art.50, we're seeing a re-run of so much of English history, which has been forever characterised by two opposing forces and never any compromise.

For that same reason, I suspect that Labour heard TM's statement yesterday and immediately thought "what's the catch?" She's left it too late in the day for her offer to be anything other than a Cunning Plan.

I finally found time last night to read the politico article linked earlier and it certainly seems well-founded. I've had only the briefest passing acquaintance with any of the EU/National actors in this drama, but that was back in 2017 and even at that point they were several steps ahead in their Brexit planning than Westminster is today. That's why I'd say April 12th is the last we'll hear of the Withdrawal Agreement - after that, IndyRef2, UI and a new EU-UK FTA will fight for place on the front pages.

kunst nugget

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Have you sources for any of this?

It all comes from God. Angels whisper it to him as he writes because God hates Marxist lefties...

Professor Moriarty

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

Labour MP on BBC news now saying that it's the will of 90% of Labour party members that there is a confirmatory vote on any deal... "it is our clear policy" so he couldn't imagine that Corbyn will agree to anything with May that isn't subject to a confirmatory vote.

So, potentially we could lose Corbyn from this as well if he agrees anything without confirmatory vote?

Corbyn going would be a boost for Soft Brexit/Remain. At best, he's very reluctantly implementing the will of Labour party members. in fact, his mealy mouthed ineptitude is as much to blame for Brexit as May's intransigence.

Water John

I think in fairness both Lb and SNP have compromised as the indicative vote process went on and that should be acknowledged.
Sturgeon meeting with May today. SNP want in on the negotiations. Also in fairness they have a bloc of 35 votes that whip very effectively and are deliverable. Foolish to ignore them.

Peregrinus

theguzman wrote: »

I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

Gee, that must be why the Labour vote slumped so dramatically at the last election, and the Tories romped home with a historic majority.

Tell me how

theguzman wrote: »

I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

With regards to the last sentence of your first paragraph, there are some it seems who feel this way but the reality is that those that do think this way are vastly in the minority. Maybe they have grown in number from 10 years ago but they still hold a minority view.

With regards the last sentence of your second paragraph. This is entirely untrue, the Royal family goes out of it's way to be apolitical.

Roger_007

TM starts PM questions by giving Jeremy a kick in the you-know-where knowing his views on NATO and neuclear deterrents.
Doesn't auger well for the talks later on?

An Ciarraioch

The European Commissioner for Customs, Pierre Moscovici, has a thread detailing no-deal customs scenarios - customs would be immediately applied on UK goods, businesses would have to pay VAT on imports, and there would be prohibitions or strict limits on certain goods:

http://twitter.com/pierremoscovici/status/1113395957310394369

bob mcbob

theguzman wrote: »

I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

Why do you use the word British. Brexit is an English movement.
It is essentially an English nationalist movement that since it does not have any English national identities, defines itself by what it is against rather than what it stands for.

It is exactly the same as the English football fans, who songs closely resemble the Brexit "discussion". The songs can be split into 3 different types -

1 Inability to identify between England and Britain
- God Save the Queen
- Rule Britannia

2 Nostalgia for the past
- Three Lions
- Dambusters

3 Xenophobia
- 10 German bombers
- F*** the IRA
- any song about Gibraltar or the Falklands

jm08

theguzman wrote: »

I would guess it was entirely well planned as to send a message, ordinary British people who are in favour of Brexit hate Corbyn even more, he is seen as a Marxist traitor over there and if given the choice in a US Style 2-choice election they would choose anyone else instead of Corbyn. People are sick to the teeth of mass immigration, political correctness, erosion of wages and lviing standard, Islamic Terror and the pontificating mass media and elites telling them what to do and think.

Brexit, Trump etc. are just symptoms of the mass pushback against the leftwing agenda. If Corbyn came to power and started implementing his radical measures I would go so far as to say the British Army would launch a coup against him with the full support of the the Royal Family. The Royal family also supported Brexit and this played a part too in British Patriotism toward Brexit, they feel under siege from the EU analogous to the struggle of World War II.

Do you have any evidence of this? If anything, it would seem the Queen was/is pro EU bearing in mind what she wore to the state opening of parliament in 2017. (See link below).

For the first time in 43 years, Queen Elizabeth II of Britain on Wednesday did not wear her crown as she delivered the traditional Queen’s Speech and State Opening of Parliament.
https://www.premiumtimesng.com/foreign/world-foreign/234699-first-time-43-years-uk-snap-election-denies-queen-elizabeth-traditional-grandness.html

Enzokk

Roger_007 wrote: »

TM starts PM questions by giving Jeremy a kick in the you-know-where knowing his views on NATO and neuclear deterrents.
Doesn't auger well for the talks later on?

They just cannot help themselves and think this is the best way forward. I fail to see how being so confrontational in politics is anything but obstructive to working together when the need is there. You can see it in their press and if you watch supporters on Twitter, if someone like Anna Soubry does well that benefits your party the first instinct is to attack her record and to show she is not that great. It is a never ending battle and it is tiring.

LuckyLloyd

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Honest question, why the hell didnt the UK decide what kind of Brexit they wanted BEFORE triggering article 50? Instead of negotiating a deal no one wanted, they could have held votes in parliment to find out what the majority was for(if any) now we're left in a right mess with no plan b or c and no one seems to know what they are doing. Its incompetence to an almost criminal level

Because May was under massive pressure from the media and the right of her party to trigger it, and trigger it with the hardest negotiating strategy as soon as possible. There was air of outright jingoism within the Brexit movement and May made a major strategic error of ceding to those voices via her Lancaster House speech and red lines. In the short term it looked like genius: she soared in the polls, approval ratings climbed and Corbyn was ridiculed by all and sundry.

Hindsight is 20 : 20 and of course it's easy to see now that her decision was wrong. It limited her negotiating flexibility, imposed a ticking clock upon her and was tied up in the decision to call a general election which cost her a house majority and tied her faith to the DUP. Just now as then, her focus is always on surviving to Friday. She lacks vision and capability to deliver long term complex policy.

EKRIUQ

CelticRambler wrote: »

Same reason they didn't decide what Brexit meant before putting it to a referendum - it was never meant to happen. The whole fiasco was an exercise in megaphone "diplomacy" between two right-wing factions of the English political establishment.

I think they did know exactly what it meant, it was clearly stated on the ballot paper "Leave the European Union".

They didn't understand the effects of leaving the European Union but they wanted to leave the European Union. And still 3 years later they still don't know what the effects are going to be, but since there has been a huge amount of fear and scare tactics used and still none have come to fruition I can understand there point.

An Ciarraioch

36% of British respondents would want NI to vote to remain in the UK, 19% would prefer a united Ireland, 36% are indifferent, and the remaining 9% don't know. 75% have never been to the North, while 61% have never visited the Republic.

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/most-britons-would-not-mind-if-northern-ireland-left-uk-poll-finds

seamus

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Because May was under massive pressure from the media and the right of her party to trigger it, and trigger it with the hardest negotiating strategy as soon as possible. There was air of outright jingoism within the Brexit movement and May made a major strategic error of ceding to those voices via her Lancaster House speech and red lines. In the short term it looked like genius: she soared in the polls, approval ratings climbed and Corbyn was ridiculed by all and sundry.

Hindsight is 20 : 20 and of course it's easy to see now that her decision was wrong. It limited her negotiating flexibility, imposed a ticking clock upon her and was tied up in the decision to call a general election which cost her a house majority and tied her faith to the DUP. Just now as then, her focus is always on surviving to Friday. She lacks vision and capability to deliver long term complex policy.

IIRC (so much has happened since!), the EU had stated very clearly, and repeatedly that no negotiations could take place until the UK had invoked article 50. That is, the UK's future relationship outside the EU wasn't going to be discussed with them until they had formally said they were leaving.

With such an ultimatum on the table, of course the UK then moved to immediately invoke A50. One way or another they had to.

But what they forgot was that the EU's refusal to negotiate before A50, didn't mean the UK couldn't talk about it between themselves and decide what they wanted before deciding to leave. In effect what they did is hand in their notice before they started looking for another job.

And thus we ended up at that farcical photo of the EU negotiators in possession of stacks of documents with various data and proposals on them, across the table from the UK team, who were empty-handed.

Itssoeasy

Enzokk wrote: »

It is always interesting to see the what is being said in the mornings. JRM is making a fool of himself by failing to backtrack on the tweet where he mentioned the AfD in a positive way. He backtracked a little by saying he agrees with the opinion they have on the EU but not their policies but this morning he seems to not have expanded on this and cannot name any policies he disagrees with from the far right party.

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1113345724262047744

On May's plan, I think we are going to be talking about the trap for a while as it plays out.

https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1113339530772348928

Steve Barclay was on radio this morning and said they want to test whether Corbyn actually wants to leave the EU and that a second referendum as a condition would be very difficult. The comment is that it sounds like a red line.

I heard the JRM interview live and when it was put to him about the AFD he get pure thick with the interviewer. He said the BBC and the show he was on in particular were biased to the left which the same point was made by the MP from Dover on five live who said there was a anti semitism problem in the Labour party(and there is an issue to answer there), but you have an MP for the Conservative party in JRM unable to condemn the comments he retweeted and instead got angry and cried Bias. The phrase those in glass houses comes to mind. The UK is a mess and brand UK is damaged.

LuckyLloyd

seamus wrote: »

Corbyn comes across a bit like a wilting geography teacher; inoffensive and without backbone.

I dunno, he peers out from under those glasses in such a way that makes me think he's a difficult fecker when he wants to be. People are very quick to diminish someone who hung around as a pariah within his own party for 30 years before seizing control of it against the wishes of its parliamentary party and facing down two vociferous challenges to his leadership. He then placed his long held policy desires onto a manifesto, campaigned against the odds, and garnered 40% of the vote when he was polling as low as 25% ahead of the election.

Whether you love or loathe his policies, it is surely objectively obvious that he's a political cockroach at the very least.

BorneTobyWilde

Joining forces with the DUP was her biggest mistake.