Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Dyr

bob mcbob wrote: »

This is brilliant - it is a description of the hard line Brexiteers who even now think anything except a no-deal is betrayal.

A quote from it -

(One Tory Brexiteer describes the three men thus: “Mark Francois: idiot, Andrew Bridgen: 75% idiot, Steve Baker: sometimes lets his emotions cloud his judgment”).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/04/brexit-brexiteers-brincels-ultras-war-martyrdom

It's embarrassing, like most of the guff The Guardian print now, The Guardian is now basically the lefty equivalent of the Torygraph with forays into Daily Mail levels of purse clutching and hysteria

ShooterSF

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Gearing up for Chancellor Merkel in the Pheonix Park at Farmleigh.


Apparently there will be some tough talking on Ireland's preparedness for no deal and how we intend on protecting the single market.

As there should be because either our government are grossly under-prepared or as many here seem oddly ok with they have been telling barefaced lies to their constituents in a game of politics with a foreign nation. Strange when the ERG do it pretending to support the DUP and then revealing it was all political games people are more angry here than when our own govt are at it.

Laois_Man

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's up to the people living there and as of now the clear majority prefer to remain part of the UK.

That depends on which opinion poll you're taking notice of. They're woefully inconsistent, ranging from a 13% lead on the Unification side to a 13% lead on the staying with the UK side just in the last 6 months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland#cite_note-Irish_Times_Ipsos_poll_209-03-07-49

prawnsambo

Water John wrote: »

Yvette Cooper's Bill looks like it will sail through the House of Lords. The lady has great gumption. This is the second time she has made a key intervention that will have scraped through. Letwin and herself were thinking 48 hours ago it was a long shot.

Jolyon Maugham wrote an article in The Guardian about it. He's not particularly enthusiastic about it. And that's putting it mildly. How he puts it is that the bill requires a motion to be passed by parliament compelling the PM to seek an extension of a duration of her choosing, but which parliament can also disagree with. If this fails, it's dead in the water.

If it passes, it opens another can of worms. The EU could come back quickly with a counter offer like January 2020 and EuroParl elections or even agreement without conditions but a different date, then the bill is silent. And now we're at Thursday and the bill suggests that she goes back to parliament for another extension request which is clearly ridiculous with a day to go.

In short, any different date or added conditions from the EU ends the bill's effectiveness because of the time constraints. Hard brexit is still very likely.

prawnsambo

ShooterSF wrote: »

As there should be because either our government are grossly under-prepared or as many here seem oddly ok with they have been telling barefaced lies to their constituents in a game of politics with a foreign nation. Strange when the ERG do it pretending to support the DUP and then revealing it was all political games people are more angry here than when our own govt are at it.

Well that's a good stretch. The silence on what happens at the border is to prevent it becoming a political football on the other side of the Irish Sea. But Revenue were on the radio today talking about their preparations. And it's all happening at the ports.

ShooterSF

prawnsambo wrote: »

Jolyon Maugham wrote an article in The Guardian about it. He's not particularly enthusiastic about it. And that's putting it mildly. How he puts it is that the bill requires a motion to be passed by parliament compelling the PM to seek an extension of a duration of her choosing, but which parliament can also disagree with. If this fails, it's dead in the water.

If it passes, it opens another can of worms. The EU could come back quickly with a counter offer like January 2020 and EuroParl elections or even agreement without conditions but a different date, then the bill is silent. And now we're at Thursday and the bill suggests that she goes back to parliament for another extension request which is clearly ridiculous with a day to go.

In short, any different date or added conditions from the EU ends the bill's effectiveness because of the time constraints. Hard brexit is still very likely.

Plus it has the same ambiguity problems a lot of the indicative votes with almost majorities. As soon as you try and flesh out the details you will lose your majority as some will not be happy with the direction it is taking. They need all of last night's yes voters to be unanimous in what type of extension they want. Which I highly doubt they will be.

Strazdas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Gearing up for Chancellor Merkel in the Pheonix Park at Farmleigh.





Apparently there will be some tough talking on Ireland's preparedness for no deal and how we intend on protecting the single market.

First visit to Ireland in five years by the Chancellor.

There has been some talk about the No Deal aspect alright but apparently she is here primarily as a show of solidarity to Ireland (she is our guest after all.....if she wanted to tell the Taoiseach off, she would have invited him to Berlin).

ShooterSF

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well that's a good stretch. The silence on what happens at the border is to prevent it becoming a political football on the other side of the Irish Sea. But Revenue were on the radio today talking about their preparations. And it's all happening at the ports.

It wasn't silence. The govt clearly stated they had NO plan for a border. Whether you are ok with politicians lying to their constituents because the end justifies the means is a personal matter I guess.

Hurrache

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Apparently there will be some tough talking on Ireland's preparedness for no deal and how we intend on protecting the single market.

There are preparations, it's just not publicised as part of the negotiations.

prawnsambo

ShooterSF wrote: »

It wasn't silence. The govt clearly stated they had NO plan for a border. Whether you are ok with politicians lying to their constituents because the end justifies the means is a personal matter I guess.

That depends on whether no plan for a border also means no plan for dealing with cross border trade. Because they are not the same.

theguzman

They'd badly want to clean that ivy and rotten creepers off the front columns, looks like a deserted ruin of a castle.

Hurrache

Bambi wrote: »

It's embarrassing, like most of the guff The Guardian print now, The Guardian is now basically the lefty equivalent of the Torygraph with forays into Daily Mail levels of purse clutching and hysteria

It's an opinion piece, not an op ed. And for the most part it's based on what colleagues have said about a particular set of people, so it's opinions of the Tories. Who are not lefties.

McMurphy

Gift Grub yesterday was a laugh, the sketch was set in a fictional pub, Bercow calling "order, order" followed by May answering that she was trying to, but no one could make up their minds....

No matter what she asked Sammy Wilson what he'd like from the bar, his answer was of course NO.....

Farage arrives in, set for a stag do... All set for the lash.

Sammy answering NO to whatever is asked of him, even when it's a simple "what do you want???" - he answers NO!!!

Four minutes is all it lasts, but it had me chuckling loudly....


https://www.todayfm.com/podcasts/the-ian-dempsey-breakfast-show/gift-grub-brexit-soap-opera

Hurrache

His Bercow is pretty brutal.

VinLieger

ShooterSF wrote: »

It wasn't silence. The govt clearly stated they had NO plan for a border. Whether you are ok with politicians lying to their constituents because the end justifies the means is a personal matter I guess.

They said they had no plans to implement a border which is not the same as not having plans on how such a border would work.


For instance you may not plan on being in a car crash but have made plans like taking out insurance on how to deal with if it happened.

A Dub in Glasgo

theguzman wrote: »

They'd badly want to clean that ivy and rotten creepers off the front columns,

My first thoughts as well when I seen the pic

Strazdas

Hurrache wrote: »

It's an opinion piece, not an op ed. And for the most part it's based on what colleagues have said about a particular set of people, so it's opinions of the Tories. Who are not lefties.

I don't buy that the Guardian and Telegraph are two sides of the same coin anyway. Yes, the Guardian is left leaning and liberal etc. but the Telegraph has gone so far out to the right that it is virtually a far right blog these days.

fash

ShooterSF wrote: »

It wasn't silence. The govt clearly stated they had NO plan for a border..

I suspect you need to listen to the precise statements made more carefully.
Just because someone is not planning to do something- does not mean that one has not fully prepared for it.

I am sure many people who have guns do not plan to use them- but are prepared to use them is necessary.

Seth Brundle

theguzman wrote: »

They'd badly want to clean that ivy and rotten creepers off the front columns, looks like a deserted ruin of a castle.

It's a wisteria in full winter glory.
Merkel having a background in natural sciences would presumably recognise this common climbing vine.

10000maniacs

ShooterSF wrote: »

As there should be because either our government are grossly under-prepared or as many here seem oddly ok with they have been telling barefaced lies to their constituents in a game of politics with a foreign nation. Strange when the ERG do it pretending to support the DUP and then revealing it was all political games people are more angry here than when our own govt are at it.

I don't think the Irish government should be held to account in any shape or form for any consequences arising from this debacle. If Enda Kenny was the one who triggered an Irexit, then yes, but the Gov are blameless.

seamus

Can't believe there are still some people persisting with this British nonsense that the Germans are driving the bus and Merkel is over here to tell Leo off like a bold schoolchild.

If you've been paying any attention to print, radio & TV over the last couple of months, you'll have seen plenty of government ads about being "Brexit-ready".

Christy42

seamus wrote: »

Can't believe there are still some people persisting with this British nonsense that the Germans are driving the bus and Merkel is over here to tell Leo off like a bold schoolchild.

If you've been paying any attention to print, radio & TV over the last couple of months, you'll have seen plenty of government ads about being "Brexit-ready".

I imagine if European leaders were unhappy with no deal preparations in Ireland, Leo would have had his talking to long before 5 days after the original deadline.

54and56

VinLieger wrote: »

Only just flicked on, hopefully they throw it up as a video

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexiter-hangs-up-on-james-obrien-leave-eu/

demfad

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/03/grassroots-facebook-brexit-ads-secretly-run-by-staff-of-lynton-crosby-firm?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Quite the story here.

A series of hugely influential Facebook advertising campaigns that appear to be separate grassroots movements for a no-deal Brexit are secretly overseen by employees of Sir Lynton Crosby’s lobbying company and a former adviser to Boris Johnson, documents seen by the Guardian reveal.

The mysterious groups, which have names such as Mainstream Network and Britain’s Future, appear to be run independently by members of the public and give no hint that they are connected. But in reality they share an administrator who works for Crosby’s CTF Partners and have spent as much as £1m promoting sophisticated targeted adverts aimed at heaping pressure on individual MPs to vote for a hard Brexit.

All the apparent groundswell of support "hardening" public opinion towards no-deal, all the organic support...was none of the kind.
The fact that a nonm-grassroots/organic group called "Britain Future" hiding behind an average Tory called Tim Dawson was pouring money into online campaigns was not brand new news.

The fact that all of these groups were in fact pushed by ONE organisation is massive.

Putting the likes of Tim Dawson as head actually complies with Facebook's new "transparancy" rule about and shows it up to be as useless as it is: The true backers are still invisible.

But according to the documents, almost all the major pro-Brexit Facebook “grassroots” advertising campaigns in the UK share the same page admins or advertisers

Lynton Crosby, behind Tories in 2015 and Johnson's successful Mayoral campaigns.

The "Mainstream media" group came to notice for the fake grassroots "Chuck Chequers" campaign. All that stuff about George Soros funding Brexit was them too.

Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be “mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers

Anyone who engaged with the online Fakery was given an option to contact email their local MP. The MP would then be under the impression that there is a grassroots ground-swell for no-deal.

Remember MPs and other key players are targetted in other ways and from other angles.

(Ill put another post about how the PM herself has been targetted this way with special mention to Nick Boles mentioned and Theresa May’s director of communications, Robbie Gibb)

Water John

Prawn, we all know the EU will amend any ext request from May. They did the last time. If Cooper's Bill was so wrong, Cox would have been all over it.

ShooterSF

VinLieger wrote: »

They said they had no plans to implement a border which is not the same as not having plans on how such a border would work.


For instance you may not plan on being in a car crash but have made plans like taking out insurance on how to deal with if it happened.

fash wrote: »

I suspect you need to listen to the precise statements made more carefully.
Just because someone is not planning to do something- does not mean that one has not fully prepared for it.

I am sure many people who have guns do not plan to use them- but are prepared to use them is necessary.

“The answer I’ve been giving people all along is the honest truth,” the Taoiseach said.

“We’re not making plans for a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Our focus is entirely on getting an agreement that ensures that that doesn’t happen.”

Later, Mr Varadkar added: “We have made no preparations whatsoever for physical infrastructure or anything like that. We certainly do not want it to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

“The contingency plans we are making are very real but they are happening at our ports, particularly Dublin Port, Dublin Airport and Rosslare, where we have acquired or are in the process of acquiring land and will develop border control posts in those places,” he said.

“They may be needed March in the event of a hard Brexit, but if they are not needed in March, they will be needed into the future, or are very likely to be needed at some point into the future. So that is contingency planning that we are making but we are not making to the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

“We simply cannot countenance that being the case.”

(From the IT in december)

Those statements don't sound like I'm not planning to implement a border but am prepared for one in the event of it. I remember hearing him say this kinda stuff and being outraged. Again I get people are ok with him lying about (Im not) but the idea that he didn't say he wasn't preparing in case a border happened was not the case imo.

54and56

Probably the best short article I've read on the ultra Brexiteers thus far - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/04/brexit-brexiteers-brincels-ultras-war-martyrdom

"One Tory Brexiteer describes the three men thus: “Mark Francois: idiot, Andrew Bridgen: 75% idiot, Steve Baker: sometimes lets his emotions cloud his judgment”"

Reminds me of how AA Gill wrote restaurant reviews. He could turn a horrible eating experience into an enjoyable read

ShooterSF

This has probably answered but what is it with both houses calling each other "the other place" sounds very derogatory...

badtoro

ShooterSF wrote: »

This has probably answered but what is it with both houses calling each other "the other place" sounds very derogatory...

You'd hear them in the HOC referring to it as "this place"

MPFGLB

I find this article on the Brincels ( a hard core group from among the the hard Brexiters) both funny and sad

One wonders how these people get elected into a 70k a year job with expenses and pensions

Also Francis is reported to have funded the ERG through his parliamentary expenses ???

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/04/brexit-brexiteers-brincels-ultras-war-martyrdom?CMP=share_btn_tw