Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

kunst nugget

Hurrache wrote: »

The Irish Ambassador has written an open letter to the editor of the Spectator slating it and its take on things Irish.
https://twitter.com/IrelandEmbGB/status/1116383396626931712

That's a fantastic response.

Laois_Man

kunst nugget wrote: »

That's a fantastic response.

It was alright....he could have refuted a few things....but maybe biting his tongue was the right thing to do

Peregrinus

Laois_Man wrote: »

It was alright....he could have refuted a few things....but maybe biting his tongue was the right thing to do

It was a letter to the editor, intended for publication.

And I believe the Spectator did publish it, but in edited form.

Which always happens with letters to the editor - they prune them ruthlessly for publication, to keep them short and punchy.

Which means, if you're writing a letter to the editor, the shorter and punchier you keep it, the closer the published version will be to what you wrote.

Beechwoodspark

10000maniacs wrote: »

Faisal Islam is good at cutting through the BS and not allowing politicians to make statements without being able to back up their claims. He also has a good knowledge of the complexities and regualrly challenged Brexit Tories on the GATT Article 24 claims. Nobody at the BBC has ever done that, maybe because they didn't understand the complexities of it.
I remember Kirsty Wark attempting to do that once with John Redwood and getting muddled and flustered.
Islam is a big loss to Sky.

Agree. He is one of the best over in Uk at moment.

Imreoir2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

My housemate made an argument that Macron's insistence on 6 months is to both give the UK breathing space and apply pressure to them to come round to a People's Vote.

If on the other hand he is hoping to enrich France at the UK's expense, there are complications. It means throwing another EU member state, Ireland to the dogs as well as bloodying the noses of others, most notably Denmark and the Netherlands. Then there are the millions of migrants in the UK. A lot of people will lose out. I'm not saying that this is the case of course but he will make enemies in Europe over this. Merkel is in her last term and won't be doing much to impede this.

Ireland is not being thrown to the dogs, the UK will remain in the EU for another six months. At which point it will again be agree the same old question of agree the deal, no-deal, revoke or extend. And yet again, the UK will extend. The UK has caused a lot of trouble to Europe and the harm to their economey that they are suffering now is well earned. Ireland and the other member states you memtioned are also benefiting quite nicely from the stripmining of British business that Brexit has caused. I don't think any of us mind another 6 months of that. As for the millions of migrants in the UK, they only lose out if the British decide to go for a no-deal Brexit in October. I would have thought by now that this option is as clearly dead as May's deal?

The losers here are British workers who will see their jobs moving to Dublin, Paris, Amsterdam and a hundred other places accross the EU.

This notion that Macron is now some sort of panto villan is silly. He took a hard line becuase of his domestic politics, we and others took a softer line because of our domestic politics. A compromise was worked out and we moved on. That's how politics is supposed to work.

gmisk

Farmer wrote: »

ByDonkeys registered Nigell's http://thebrexitparty.com

https://mobile.twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1116583675632574464

But sure doesnt he love a fag and a pint of bitter?!?!
He is one of us!!!!!!!
INGGERRRRRLUUUUNNNDDDD INGERRRRRLUNNNNDDD

Imreoir2

Scoondal wrote: »

Let's give UK another six months to destroy their economy and social order. When will the riots begin ? Well done EU.

It's really not the EU's fault that the UK is a divided broken country. They are now just getting a taste of what dealing with the EU as a non-member would be like. As a member, the EU has to take the UK's needs into account. Should the UK leave, the EU will have no reason to treat the UK in any other way than the EU's own interests direct, regardless of the consequences to the UK.

If there are riots on the streets of the UK, that is not the EU's problem.

Seth Brundle

Imreoir2 wrote: »

If there are riots on the streets of the UK, that is not the EU's problem.

The EU is looking at this from the perspective that the majority of people within the UK did not make an informed choice to leave. These people are currently EU citizens and the EU is standing up for them and I reckon will continue to show concern for them after any Brexit.
Furthermore, any Brexit will be harmful to the EU in some shape or form, even after they leave. The EU wants to ensure that any impact is minimised as much as possible.
Any UK problems are the EU's problems.

gmisk

Scoondal wrote: »

Let's give UK another six months to destroy their economy and social order. When will the riots begin ? Well done EU.

So you are blaming the EU for the mess the Uk has got itself into? Thats err a different take, I will give you that.


The best comparison for me.
Brexit is like an exploding backed up toilet, the UK is the owner of said toilet.

They are calling the EU (the plumber) and expecting them to pay the UK for the privilege of fixing the toilet and cleaning up their sh1t.

ancapailldorcha

gmisk wrote: »

But sure doesnt he love a fag and a pint of bitter?!?!
He is one of us!!!!!!!
INGGERRRRRLUUUUNNNDDDD INGERRRRRLUNNNNDDD

No more of this please.

demfad

Have a look at this video. It is pathetic in many regards but it tells us that the Leave vote is potentially on the verge of a major collapse.

The issues facing the UK include ongoing division.

But in my opinion there an opportunity for those wishing to both remain in the European Union and, also essentially, heal divisions.

Almost ALL campaigning, especially Facebook targeting should be focussed on former Leave voters to suppress that vote. Crucially, the targetting should include an 'out' as in laying the blame on the charlatans who focussed on the lies.
'They lied to use' kind of thing.


(Note also that the propaganda 'No Deal' groups run by Lynton Crosby such as "Future Britain" have de facto pulled out withs pending drying up).

The propaganda machine has retreated.

Important that people accurately shape how reconciliation proceeds now.

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1116443770638221313

McMurphy

BarryD2 wrote: »

It is extraordinary how they have become the main voice for our Northern Irish friends. If you're not in, you can't win.

They weren't though.

The majority of the north voted remain, and in that sense had both the EU and the Irish govt being their voice.

Pretty sure this has been covered about a thousand times already.

MrFresh

gmisk wrote: »

But sure doesnt he love a fag and a pint of bitter?!?!
He is one of us!!!!!!!
INGGERRRRRLUUUUNNNDDDD INGERRRRRLUNNNNDDD

I wonder has he figured out who paid for that private plane yet.

First Up

Seth Brundle wrote:

The EU is looking at this from the perspective that the majority of people within the UK did not make an informed choice to leave. These people are currently EU citizens and the EU is standing up for them and I reckon will continue to show concern for them after any Brexit. Furthermore, any Brexit will be harmful to the EU in some shape or form, even after they leave. The EU wants to ensure that any impact is minimised as much as possible. Any UK problems are the EU's problems.

The EU is looking at it from the perspective of sovereign nations being responsible for themselves.

The EU is an association of sovereign nations; its concern for the UK extends to how developments there impact on EU members collectively and individually.

It isn't their mother.

LuckyLloyd

demfad wrote: »

Have a look at this video. It is pathetic in many regards but it tells us that the Leave vote is potentially on the verge of a major collapse.

The issues facing the UK include ongoing division.

But in my opinion there an opportunity for those wishing to both remain in the European Union and, also essentially, heal divisions.

Almost ALL campaigning, especially Facebook targeting should be focussed on former Leave voters to suppress that vote. Crucially, the targetting should include an 'out' as in laying the blame on the charlatans who focussed on the lies.
'They lied to use' kind of thing.


(Note also that the propaganda 'No Deal' groups run by Lynton Crosby such as "Future Britain" have de facto pulled out withs pending drying up).

The propaganda machine has retreated.

Important that people accurately shape how reconciliation proceeds now.

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1116443770638221313

It hasn't worked out. The magnificent Brexit promised to people hasn't materialised. The problem is how you gain a parliamentary consensus for a GE or referendum. IF this goes to the people I believe we will see a majority for remain / remain policy platform.

BarryD2

kunst nugget wrote: »

If you were a nationalist voter, you could have had the SDLP in the British parliament representing you but if you gave your vote to abstentionist party and are now complaining about having no representation, I'd have very little sympathy for you.

The problem with that is that an elected representative is supposed to represent all the people of their constituency, not just their own party interests. So those elected on the nationalist side have a duty also towards fellow nationalists that didn't vote for them.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

They weren't though.

The majority of the north voted remain, and in that sense had both the EU and the Irish govt being their voice.

Pretty sure this has been covered about a thousand times already.

Of course it has been discussed and we all know that the majority of the north voted remain but that doesn't lessen the almost complete lack of representation of that view!

Seth Brundle

Keep it in the family (love the subheading)...

Jacob Rees-Mogg’s sister to stand for Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party
Former Ukip leader Farage says UK is ‘led by donkeys’

The sister of Tory Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg is to stand as a candidate for Nigel Farage’s new Brexit Party in the forthcoming European elections.

Annunziata Rees-Mogg was introduced by the former Ukip leader at the party’s campaign launch at a factory in Coventry.
...
Ms Rees-Mogg twice stood unsuccessfully as a Conservative general election candidate.

Roger_007

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Keep it in the family (love the subheading)...

Jacob Rees-Mogg’s sister to stand for Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party
Former Ukip leader Farage says UK is ‘led by donkeys’

Did she speak in Latin like her brother?

BonnieSituation

BarryD2 wrote: »

The problem with that is that an elected representative is supposed to represent all the people of their constituency, not just their own party interests. So those elected on the nationalist side have a duty also towards fellow nationalists that didn't vote for them.



Of course it has been discussed and we all know that the majority of the north voted remain but that doesn't lessen the almost complete lack of representation of that view!

Do they? The same way the DUP look out for their entire constituents?

My God man. Think first. Type after.

BarryD2

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do they? The same way the DUP look out for their entire constituents?

As regards Brexit, the DUP are clearly not representing many moderate unionists, never mind nationalists.

But the point is, that despite what we may think of them and how much they may be despised, at least they're out there getting their voices heard on Brexit and having their votes counted. And that is what is important to voting citizens. For that alone, you'd have to give them some credit, wouldn't you agree?

Patser

Farmer wrote: »

ByDonkeys registered Nigell's http://thebrexitparty.com

https://mobile.twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1116583675632574464

Looks like Farage lost out on Brexitparty.eu to Dolphin party too

http://thebrexitparty.eu/wordpress/

BonnieSituation

BarryD2 wrote: »

As regards Brexit, the DUP are clearly not representing many moderate unionists, never mind nationalists.

But the point is, that despite what we may think of them and how much they may be despised, at least they're out there getting their voices heard on Brexit. And that is what is important to voting citizens. For that alone, you'd have to give them some credit, wouldn't you agree?

You want me to give credit to the DUP for being pro Brexit despite the North voting remain?

I don't geddit.

kunst nugget

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Keep it in the family (love the subheading)...

Jacob Rees-Mogg’s sister to stand for Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party
Former Ukip leader Farage says UK is ‘led by donkeys’

I just googled and I was quite surprised... I was expecting her to look like a female version of JRM and she's not that at all.

Seth Brundle

BarryD2 wrote: »

The problem with that is that an elected representative is supposed to represent all the people of their constituency, not just their own party interests. So those elected on the nationalist side have a duty also towards fellow nationalists that didn't vote for them.

An elected representative should represent everybody in the constituiency, not just one group of people who happened to vote for the politician.
Whilst a political representative will have certain political leanings, they should act in the best interests of their entire electorate, not just those who have similar views.

The DUP have failed the electorate of Northern Ireland.
SF too have failed the electorate of Northern Ireland, leaving people to be represented by either the bigoted incompetency of the DUP or by the leaders of parliaments who are unable to voice them in Westminster. Excuses and assumptions that the RoI and EU were going to represent the electorate of NI is a cop out!

Seth Brundle

Patser wrote: »

Looks like Farage lost out on Brexitparty.eu to Dolphin party too

http://thebrexitparty.eu/wordpress/

I'm curious to know who registered the .co.uk domain name back in January
http://whois.domaintools.com/thebrexitparty.co.uk

Still, given Farage's connections, maybe he should reister the .ru version!

RobertKK

CelticRambler wrote: »

There's so much misunderstanding of French politics in those two paragraphs, that it's almost worthy of a "fake news" label! First of all: Macron's 27% popularity is indeed "whopping" - the highest he's ever scored, thanks to his intelligent handling of the gilets jaunes, and 3 percentage points higher than he polled in the presidential election.

Secondly, while 47% of French people say that they can imagine a scenario whereby Marine Le Pen achieves a meaningful role in parliament, that doesn't mean they want it to happen. Her new "it's a movement, not a party" party is only neck-and-neck in the polls (less so since last weekend's debate) insofar as it relates to the first round. In other words, exactly the same as last time out, and the time before, and the time before that. France's first-two-past-the-post system means that her xenophoic racist bigotted candidates have to attract support from all their natural enemies to win the second round, whereas Macron's lot only have to attract everyone who hates Marine Le Pen (which is about 60-70% of the electorate).

From this side of the Channel, there's a much simpler explanation for Macron's stance: under his stewardship, France's economy is finally getting back on its feet. What the country really needs now is an influx of new business and new investment, and the best place to steal that from is a Brexited UK. Forget all this leprechaun nonsense about Ireland having a huge advantage being the only English-speaking country in the EU - the serious business centres in France can converse in English just as well as anyone from Dublin, Cork or Galway. Even in the middle of nowhere (e.g. where I live!) many jobs are advertised with the obligatory criterion "good level of English essential".

I just wanted to highlight this point.
I mean I know this from a simple experience of playing an online game that means we both type in English and speak English. The European player I play with and am friends with are from the Netherlands, Romania, Finland, Sweden, Denmark.
Their level of English is really really good, as fluent as an Irish person. They make me feel inadequate that I can't honestly say I am fluent in Irish, but here they are speaking English as if it was native.
Then I was watching a youtube video about life in Switzerland and they were talking about what language does a French speaking Swiss person talk to a German Swizz speaker in, and if one didn't know the other language well enough the default language is English.
I think the younger people especially in Europe will be a generation very fluent in English.

So I think the only advantage Ireland has and a diminishing one is we have the youngest population in Europe, closest to the US and strong historical and ancestral links.
Our European cousins put us to shame when it comes to language skills, and those skills are also a big asset for businesses looking for a base outside a post Brexit UK.

WomanSkirtFan8

kunst nugget wrote: »

That's a fantastic response.

It's a brilliant response and something which needed to be said.

lawred2

Hurrache wrote: »

The Irish Ambassador has written an open letter to the editor of the Spectator slating it and its take on things Irish.
https://twitter.com/IrelandEmbGB/status/1116383396626931712

A great response but in all honesty I'd be surprised if the author was even vaguely aware that there were already 17 members/observers from the EU

Infini

BarryD2 wrote: »

As regards Brexit, the DUP are clearly not representing many moderate unionists, never mind nationalists.

But the point is, that despite what we may think of them and how much they may be despised, at least they're out there getting their voices heard on Brexit and having their votes counted. And that is what is important to voting citizens. For that alone, you'd have to give them some credit, wouldn't you agree?

I'd give them no credit whatsoever, they arguably could barely even be considered a unionist party they're certainly toxic to Nationalists but the DUP are a liability to Unionist's as well as they don't seem to be interested in even representing them (See Sammy Shítstirrer: "Send em to the chippy" when Brexit was risking supplies to supermarkets and was being highlighted in the commons). They're purely a cronyist group only interested in representing their dim outdated and narrowminded views and utterly incompetent to the point that they didn't even research their position first they just jumped on the Brexit bandwagon because "flegs, the union etc" without actually checking out how this would backfire on normal people. Like I said before they're not fit to even run a county council they should be chucked out of office for incompetence and I honestly hope they get their comeuppance for trying to throw the entirety of NI under the bus for the sake of their idiocy.

I'd have a different view entirely if the DUP were pragmatic and actually cared for their people and took aboard the whole point that NI voted to remain by a decent margin 56% but they essentially went full retard going for a Hard Brexit despite EVERY warning being given about how badly this would damage NI expecially, the only reason they might change position now is purely about money because the last we heard the Buisness and Farming Groups were pulling their support for em.

CelticRambler

BarryD2 wrote: »

But the point is, that despite what we may think of them and how much they may be despised, at least they're out there getting their voices heard on Brexit and having their votes counted. And that is what is important to voting citizens. For that alone, you'd have to give them some credit, wouldn't you agree?

Nope, because the only place they're getting heard and having a token influence is in Westminster - probably the only place in the world where that counts for nothing in respect of Brexit! Sinn Féin, meanwhile, are talking directly to Dublin, and talking directly to Barnier/Tusk/Juncker, and talking to movers and shakers in the US. Three years after the referendum, the DUP's electorate have achieved nothing as regards Brexit, but Sinn Féin's electorate have effectively achieved a United Ireland in all but name.

If you want your voice to be heard and your vote to count, make sure you're talking to the right people.