Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

Off topic posts deleted.

Cryptopagan

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If you don't vote all the way to the bottom of your ballot paper (leaving the very last place blank if you like) you are not using your vote to the fullest.

Even then, there is a chance your vote won't count for anyone that gets elected, happened to me in 2007, but it is much less likely than if you stop at 2 or 3.

But go right ahead, since it makes my vote count for more.

Are you people incapable of debating this without the smug “hur-hur you’re making my vote count more, dumbass” attitude?

I know perfectly well that if there is one candidate who I consider markedly worse than every name on the ballot, it makes sense to give a preference to every other candidate. However, that is usually not the case; usually, the ballot is full of candidates I have no preference among.

If you’re the kind of voter who finds it somehow satisfying to vote for everyone but that one candidate you really dislike, that’s great. But I would rather my vote has some sort of positive motivation—choosing among unappealing alternatives doesn’t do anything for me. It’s a bit like choosing among different forms of Brexit, in which some remainers won’t compromise and support a “least worst” version of a bad idea.

Sitting in my car in traffic in Dublin this morning and I looked at the Dublin-registered car in front of me as one does. I had to take a second look, and a third look. The manufacturers of the car actually incorporated the Union Jack into the lights at the back so the car. Sweet. Mother. of. Jesus.

What the hell is wrong with that society? What are they trying to prove? Do Germans do that with their cars? Do Japanese? Italians? French?

A quick google and they got this Union Jack addition last year, 2018. The fact that the car company in question - Mini - has been owned by a German car company, BMW, for the past 20 years and that production of the electric Mini has been threatened to move to mainland Europe in the event of a no-deal Brexit says so, so much about how these flag-waving Brexiteers have been duped. Send the profits back to Germany, but put a Union Jack on the car and these benighted sorts will be happy. Painful, painful stuff.

Brexit is like being unable to escape watching your neighbour having a mental breakdown, but definitely not wanting to watch it, and having a deep feeling of sadness for other members of the family, whom you've known and respected for a long time, as they try to keep a semblance of normality going. You could see it all, in both cases, building up over many years. You tried to give advice in a respectful way but a mixture of no intervention and wrong interventions exacerbated the situation beyond repair.

lawred2

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Are you people incapable of debating this without the smug “hur-hur you’re making my vote count more, dumbass” attitude?

I know perfectly well that if there is one candidate who I consider markedly worse than every name on the ballot, it makes sense to give a preference to every other candidate. However, that is usually not the case; usually, the ballot is full of candidates I have no preference among.

If you’re the kind of voter who finds it somehow satisfying to vote for everyone but that one candidate you really dislike, that’s great. But I would rather my vote has some sort of positive motivation—choosing among unappealing alternatives doesn’t do anything for me. It’s a bit like choosing among different forms of Brexit, in which some remainers won’t compromise and support a “least worst” version of a bad idea.

or some Brexiteers won't compromise and support a “least worst” version of their bad idea

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

Sitting in my car in traffic in Dublin this morning and I looked at the Dublin-registered car in front of me as one does. I had to take a second look, and a third look. The manufacturers of the car actually incorporated the Union Jack into the lights at the back so the car. Sweet. Mother. of. Jesus.

What the hell is wrong with that society? What are they trying to prove? Do Germans do that with their cars? Do Japanese? Italians? French?

A quick google and they got this Union Jack addition last year, 2018. The fact that the car company in question - Mini - has been owned by a German car company, BMW, for the past 20 years and that production of the electric Mini has been threatened to move to mainland Europe in the event of a no-deal Brexit says so, so much about how these flag-waving Brexiteers have been duped. Send the profits back to Germany, but put a Union Jack on the car and these benighted sorts will be happy. Painful, painful stuff.

Brexit is like being unable to escape watching your neighbour having a mental breakdown, but definitely not wanting to watch it, and having a deep feeling of sadness for other members of the family, whom you've known and respected for a long time, as they try to keep a semblance of normality going. You could see it all, in both cases, building up over many years. You tried to give advice in a respectful way but a mixture of no intervention and wrong interventions exacerbated the situation beyond repair.

I would have thought it was simply trying to cash in on the Britishness of the Mini brand.

Comically crass obviously for a German company but that's marketing for you.

lawred2

lawred2 wrote: »

I would have thought it was simply trying to cash in on the Britishness of the Mini brand.

Comically crass obviously for a German company but that's marketing for you.

Even the French, who are coming from a similarly conceited imperialist cultural background, don't feel the need to do that with their cars. If they have to build a Union Jack into their car design it says much about how desperate they now are.

seamus

lawred2 wrote: »

I would have thought it was simply trying to cash in on the Britishness of the Mini brand.

Comically crass obviously for a German company but that's marketing for you.

This.

Audi - "Vorsprung Durch Technik"

Very few people know what that actually means, but it's Audi pinning their brand to "Germanness". A German flag wouldn't really be used because the German have the same sensitivity that we do about overt displays of nationalism.

Like the Americans, the British are showy about flags and have no hangups about the nationalism of flag-waving. Thus, in Britain the addition of a British flag to a commercial product is largely regarded as a positive.

All that aside it's pretty common for this kind of cultural link to be pushed by a company. Lyon's Tea, which would pour massive chunks of its marketing budget into the "Irishness" of it, is produced entirely in the UK.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Even the French, who are coming from a similarly conceited imperialist cultural background, don't feel the need to do that with their cars. If they have to build a Union Jack into their car design it says much about how desperate they now are.

Or how easily duped little Englanders are...

Igotadose

lawred2 wrote: »

I would have thought it was simply trying to cash in on the Britishness of the Mini brand.

Comically crass obviously for a German company but that's marketing for you.

Before BMW owned Mini you could buy them with the Union Jack painted on the roof, the top of the engine compartment, wing mirrors... These were imports to the US .

robinph

lawred2 wrote: »

I would have thought it was simply trying to cash in on the Britishness of the Mini brand.

Comically crass obviously for a German company but that's marketing for you.

This.

It's not a British company trying to force Britishness on anyone, it's a German company trying to sell stuff to Britain and hoping that people forget that it's actually a German company. Blame this bit of British nationalism on the German marketing department.

robinph

Igotadose wrote: »

Before BMW owned Mini you could buy them with the Union Jack painted on the roof, the top of the engine compartment, wing mirrors... These were imports to the US .

But that would have all been optional extras.

You really don't see much flag waving going on in the UK, unless it's a football world cup at the time. Much more common in Ireland, and things being sold in shops flagged up as being Irish made in order to differentiate it from being British.

Sam Russell

I cannot see how this would work.

How can the UK get a say in EU trade agreements if it is not an EU member?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/customs-union-would-give-uk-a-say-in-trade-deals-says-varadkar-1.3860427

Britain would have a “meaningful” say in future European trade deals if it chooses to enter a customs union with the EU, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said.

Mr Varadkar told The Irish Times that the UK, as the fifth-largest economy in the world, should have a say in any trade deals.

The argument against a customs union from many in Westminster has been that the UK would not have any say in trade deals struck between the EU and other trading blocs.

trellheim

I cannot see how this would work.

How can the UK get a say in EU trade agreements if it is not an EU member?

Does Norway have any input into a Turkish trade deal for example

Leroy42

It is an attempt to limit the fear of a deal. It is also aimed at keeping the UK as tight as possible aligned to the EU for 2 reasons.

1) avoid them moving their regulations for much away and thus possible trade war
2) hoping that it will end up with the UK deciding that it is better to be fully in than sitting outside shouting.

seamus

trellheim wrote: »

Does Norway have any input into a Turkish trade deal for example

Norway is not in the customs union, it's in the Single Market.

I barely understand any of this tbh.

I don't see though why the UK couldn't have a special status within the customs union which doesn't necessarily give them a deciding vote, but could oblige the European Commission to seek observations from the UK and make a good-faith attempt to acknowledge the UK's needs in any trade deal.

I don't believe that would satisfy the UK detractors - who would want nothing less than veto rights over any CU trade deal - but it does lay out how the UK could participate in the CU without losing the right to have an input.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

Do Germans do that with their cars?

MINI are German.


But other makers do this sort of thing too. Check out the leather in this Indian owned Range Rover:









This Fiat 500:

Laois_Man

Sam Russell wrote: »

I cannot see how this would work.

How can the UK get a say in EU trade agreements if it is not an EU member?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/customs-union-would-give-uk-a-say-in-trade-deals-says-varadkar-1.3860427

That's jumping a few steps ahead. Varadkar is forever trying to appease the English tabloids so they might slag him off less. It's not a decision until they actually leave and future relationship talks begin. I wouldn't pay much heed to it until Barnier or someone involved on the EU side of negotiations says it.

First Up

Laois_Man wrote:

Varadkar is forever trying to appease the English tabloids so they might slag him off less.

You gotta love Boards sometimes.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

Even the French, who are coming from a similarly conceited imperialist cultural background, don't feel the need to do that with their cars. If they have to build a Union Jack into their car design it says much about how desperate they now are.

Ah, hang on a second ... :P The French are not afraid to emblazon anything French with either un coq français and/or a blue-white-and-red ribbon


(2019 Renault Twingo)

That said, they're also obsessed with the Union "Jack" and just about every home décor shop here has shelves full of stuff branded with the flag, and I've seen similar in the US.

One could argue that this is almost a vindication of the UKIPer's claim to have lost sovereignty, but only if they were to agree that they (specifically the English) have been so luke-warm about their national identity for so many decades, that it's essentially their own fault if everyone else feels free to use their national symbols for selfish commercial purposes. And that brings us back to the question of what it means to be British and whether some Brits are more equal than others.

Leroy42

Britishness, including the Union Jack, is a symbol of coolness across the world. It carries with it a certain cache. Their is a huge amount of interest in the Queen, UK music, movies, TV etc etc.

But just like the US, the UK are so inherently lacking in confidence in themselves and their nationality that they cannot simply accept it for what it is and feel they have to hammer it home at every opportunity.

At that has played a big part in Brexit. It isn't good enough that they were key players in the club, they needed to be told how important they were, how needed they were, how important they were.

It is a massive irony within the whole Brexit debate that the UK itself is a union of countries that have given up their notions of sovereignty for a greater good whilst they can not only see that in the EU but actually seem to be steadfastly against it. It is one of the questions that I have wished would be asked of the likes of Johnson or JRM. Why is a complete fiscal, political, military, sovereignty, law etc deemed great when it comes to the UK but deemed such a threat to democracy when looked at from the EU perspective? We all know the answer of course, but it a question I would like to see them explain how they can defend such a contradiction.

lawred2

Leroy42 wrote: »

Britishness, including the Union Jack, is a symbol of coolness across the world. It carries with it a certain cache. Their is a huge amount of interest in the Queen, UK music, movies, TV etc etc.

But just like the US, the UK are so inherently lacking in confidence in themselves and their nationality that they cannot simply accept it for what it is and feel they have to hammer it home at every opportunity.

At that has played a big part in Brexit. It isn't good enough that they were key players in the club, they needed to be told how important they were, how needed they were, how important they were.

It is a massive irony within the whole Brexit debate that the UK itself is a union of countries that have given up their notions of sovereignty for a greater good whilst they can not only see that in the EU but actually seem to be steadfastly against it. It is one of the questions that I have wished would be asked of the likes of Johnson or JRM. Why is a complete fiscal, political, military, sovereignty, law etc deemed great when it comes to the UK but deemed such a threat to democracy when looked at from the EU perspective? We all know the answer of course, but it a question I would like to see them explain how they can defend such a contradiction.

Yeah but England dominates their own Union so all is good. England doesn't get to dominate the larger European Union. It's not enough to just be a big player.

nc6000

I've noticed Kenwood have incorporated the Union Jack into some of their toasters. I'm not sure where they are made.

An Ciarraioch

Brexit is already impacting on Continental Eurosceptic campaigns - the National Rally (still better known as the Front National) has quietly ditched both Frexit and scrapping the euro from its European manifesto, instead proposing to abolish the Commission and have MEPs composed of delegations from national parliaments (yet think this is still compatible with popular elections?):


http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/le-rassemblement-national-veut-supprimer-les-elections-europeennes-20190415

AlmightyCushion

nc6000 wrote: »

I've noticed Kenwood have incorporated the Union Jack into some of their toasters. I'm not sure where they are made.

The company is Japanese and I doubt the are making toasters in the UK. I could have sworn they didn't even make smaller stuff like toasers themselves and just licensed the brand name out but I could be wrong.

L1011

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The company is Japanese and I doubt the are making toasters in the UK. I could have sworn they didn't even make smaller stuff like toasers themselves and just licensed the brand name out but I could be wrong.

You're merging the two, completely and utterly unrelated (and never were) Kenwoods there.

Kenwood Japan - mostly audio kit
Kenwood UK - kettles and toasters, founded by a Mr Ken Wood.
Now Italian owned.

BonnieSituation

CelticRambler wrote: »

Ah, hang on a second ... :P The French are not afraid to emblazon anything French with either un coq français and/or a blue-white-and-red ribbon


(2019 Renault Twingo)

That said, they're also obsessed with the Union "Jack" and just about every home décor shop here has shelves full of stuff branded with the flag, and I've seen similar in the US.

One could argue that this is almost a vindication of the UKIPer's claim to have lost sovereignty, but only if they were to agree that they (specifically the English) have been so luke-warm about their national identity for so many decades, that it's essentially their own fault if everyone else feels free to use their national symbols for selfish commercial purposes. And that brings us back to the question of what it means to be British and whether some Brits are more equal than others.

That's a Le Coq Sportif edition though. It just so happens to align with French patriotism. :P

---

Why anyone would buy anything with that British rag on it is beyond me. It is hugely offensive to a whole swathe of the planet.

The lack of awareness of this is actually the proto-British attitude really.

I despair when I see a young person in Dublin wearing the likes of Jack Wills clothing, huge UJ emblazoned across the back. Bleugh.

AlmightyCushion

L1011 wrote: »

You're merging the two, completely and utterly unrelated (and never were) Kenwoods there.

Kenwood Japan - mostly audio kit
Kenwood UK - kettles and toasters, founded by a Mr Ken Wood.
Now Italian owned.

Never realised they were different companies. My bad. Also, I was mis-remembering the licensing thing, it was bigger items like dishwashers they were licensing the name out for.

Alun

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The company is Japanese and I doubt the are making toasters in the UK. I could have sworn they didn't even make smaller stuff like toasers themselves and just licensed the brand name out but I could be wrong.

You are wrong

The Japanese Kenwood Corporation is a totally different company making radio equipment. Confusingly there's also JVCKenwood which makes audio equipment.

The other Kenwood Limited that makes kitchen stuff was originally British, but was bought by De Longhi (Italian) in 2001 on the death of it's founder Ken Wood (!). They have a factory in China but are based in the UK.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

Sitting in my car in traffic in Dublin this morning and I looked at the Dublin-registered car in front of me as one does. I had to take a second look, and a third look. The manufacturers of the car actually incorporated the Union Jack into the lights at the back so the car. Sweet. Mother. of. Jesus.

What the hell is wrong with that society? What are they trying to prove? Do Germans do that with their cars? Do Japanese? Italians? French?

A quick google and they got this Union Jack addition last year, 2018. The fact that the car company in question - Mini - has been owned by a German car company, BMW, for the past 20 years and that production of the electric Mini has been threatened to move to mainland Europe in the event of a no-deal Brexit says so, so much about how these flag-waving Brexiteers have been duped. Send the profits back to Germany, but put a Union Jack on the car and these benighted sorts will be happy. Painful, painful stuff.

Brexit is like being unable to escape watching your neighbour having a mental breakdown, but definitely not wanting to watch it, and having a deep feeling of sadness for other members of the family, whom you've known and respected for a long time, as they try to keep a semblance of normality going. You could see it all, in both cases, building up over many years. You tried to give advice in a respectful way but a mixture of no intervention and wrong interventions exacerbated the situation beyond repair.

Mini regards it as an extra to have standard lights fitted and will charge potential customers £600 not to have the UJ built into the car lights!

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1106209570161070081

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why anyone would buy anything with that British rag on it is beyond me. It is hugely offensive to a whole swathe of the planet.

The lack of awareness of this is actually the proto-British attitude really.

I despair when I see a young person in Dublin wearing the likes of Jack Wills clothing, huge UJ emblazoned across the back. Bleugh.

Alright, let's have no more Brit bashing please.