Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Zubeneschamali

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Reasonable logical fact based takes gain zero traction on QT week in, week out. That has to mean something.

Yes, it means the bookers for QT want a gladiatorial show so they keep putting Brexiteer extremists in the audience and calling on them for questions.

Just as Brexiteer MEPs were on a QT panel 35 times in 5 years to 2018, pro Europe MEPs no, zero times.

demfad

Severe pressure coming on Corbyn/Milne to back a Confirmatory vote, with remain option under all deals.

If they do they win big in the EU elections, if they don't they lose big.

If Labour make this definite commitment I think Brexit is over.

Polls 58:42 for remain and remain voters are more likley to turnout.

Kermit.de.frog

Is it just me or has it all gone quiet, dull and boring all of a sudden?

Are everyone, even the politicians, just fed up at this stage?

Definitely has the feel of collective exhaustion.

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is it just me or has it all gone quiet, dull and boring all of a sudden?

Are everyone, even the politicians, just fed up at this stage?

Definitely has the feel of collective exhaustion.

Never mind, it will get exciting again next October, for a month or so until the next extension. I think they should make the next extension precisely a year, and make future Halloweens in the UK into Brexit Extension day in perpetuity, with Farage and Boris masks and kids dressing up as Saint George to slay the EU dragon and a tasteless feast of "adequate" food to celebrate.

Mr.Wemmick

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is it just me or has it all gone quiet, dull and boring all of a sudden?

Are everyone, even the politicians, just fed up at this stage?

Definitely has the feel of collective exhaustion.

Apart from the dinosaurs dragged out of retirement with nothing to lose - other than their (false) memories of wonderful ol' blighty in years gone by - to support Farage and the democratic vote.

Get back in your retirement homes the lot of ye. The rest of us have our eye on the future and that of our children.

Irish Praetorian

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes, it means the bookers for QT want a gladiatorial show so they keep putting Brexiteer extremists in the audience and calling on them for questions.

Just as Brexiteer MEPs were on a QT panel 35 times in 5 years to 2018, pro Europe MEPs no, zero times.

Much as I would like to put it down to lunatics running the QT asylum, I think its a grim but impossible to ignore reality that No-Deal nutters are about as strong a part of the population as the Remain crowd.

Capt'n Midnight

ambro25 wrote: »

Since Feb’18 then, just about all anchor stores have gone from Worksop & Rotherham, many are gone from Retford, there’s more boarded up units in Meadowhall, and drab people with 6 ft long faces and moaning everywhere we went (some quite aggressive too, apparently over nothing, saw some guys having a right ding-dong outside Aldi on a Sat morning over a ‘parents’ car parking spot).

It all felt very grim, tbh.

I can see the lashing out/protest vote doing still better this year at the EU elections, than it did in 2016 & 2017.

Retail in the UK is getting hammered. Energy and council bills going up too. And Brexit won't solve any of this.

Debenhams names 22 stores to close

Capt'n Midnight

The latest in the Ferry saga is that finally, a company with actual Ferries has entered the game.


P&O are now suing HMG over the handing over £33m to Eurotunnel.

If unlawful state aid is found, the government would have to recover the aid in full, with interest, and damages may be payable to P&O.

10000maniacs

Vince Cable on Newsnight now. If ever you doubted that the Beeb were anything but biased against "remain", watch this interview to erase any doubt. It was like watching an episode of Celebrity Roast. Or like Miriam O'Callaghan interviewing a Sinn Fein member. In other words Rottweiler-esque.

Leroy42

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The latest in the Ferry saga is that finally, a company with actual Ferries has entered the game.


P&O are now suing HMG over the handing over £33m to Eurotunnel.

If unlawful state aid is found, the government would have to recover the aid in full, with interest, and damages may be payable to P&O.

This is a pure example of what the future holds in store for the UK and what the politicians really mean by 'Taking back Control'.

It means making stuff up as they go along, flouting the rules if they feel the need and being unanswerable for any of it.

Strazdas

10000maniacs wrote: »

Vince Cable on Newsnight now. If ever you doubted that the Beeb were anything but biased against "remain", watch this interview to erase any doubt. It was like watching an episode of Celebrity Roast. Or like Miriam O'Callaghan interviewing a Sinn Fein member. In other words Rottweiler-esque.

I saw it. She hectored and interrupted him like she was talking to some extremist. Funnily, Farage never seems to get this treatment on the BBC.

Capt'n Midnight

10000maniacs wrote: »

Vince Cable on Newsnight now. If ever you doubted that the Beeb were anything but biased against "remain", watch this interview to erase any doubt. It was like watching an episode of Celebrity Roast. Or like Miriam O'Callaghan interviewing a Sinn Fein member. In other words Rottweiler-esque.

Vince Cable was on QT earlier, not that you'd notice.

As the traditional third party they should be owning the remain campaign when both of the main parties are each alienating half of their own followers.

Can anyone remember anything of significance from them since Brexit was first mulled over ?


They've been ignored. And haven't done much to attract attention since. Not helped by them missing key votes either.

Leroy42

Thought this line from Marina Hyde column today summed Brexit up pretty well.

"So, that’s where we’re at with the Conservatives, who are mostly convinced that Brexit is still a great idea, but just hasn’t been done properly yet. It’s a lot like communism in that respect."

briany

Strazdas wrote: »

I saw it. She hectored and interrupted him like she was talking to some extremist. Funnily, Farage never seems to get this treatment on the BBC.

Funnily enough, Charles Moore's opening point on Question Time a couple of weeks ago was that there was a dearth of proper Brexit supporters on the show. I don't remember if he openly accused QT/BBC of being pro-Remain but it was certainly heading in that direction.

Furthermore, if you look at any pro-Brexit YouTube channel, the comments on the videos of BBC stuff always accuse the BBC of being Remainers. The opposite is true of pro-Remain channels. So it seems like people are seeing what they want to see in the organisation.

What's better evidence of where the BBC really sits is to have an independent, unbiased, thorough analysis of all coverage since the start of the referendum campaign to now.

Tell me how

briany wrote: »

Furthermore, if you look at any pro-Brexit YouTube channel, the comments on the videos of BBC stuff always accuse the BBC of being Remainers. The opposite is true of pro-Remain channels. So it seems like people are seeing what they want to see in the organisation.

Someone said to me once that if both sides are accusing you of being biased, you must actually not be doing too bad at all in being impartial.

briany wrote: »

What's better evidence of where the BBC really sits is to have an independent, unbiased, thorough analysis of all coverage since the start of the referendum campaign to now.

This is difficult in that how do you find someone to be truly unbiased. Everyone has a subjective opinion on Brexit which will influence their judgement on how it has been covered.
Even asking an academic from America to assess coverage could be difficult because of the similarity between populist movements there with Trump and the appearance of Farage and others in both conversations.

Only in time, when Brexit has passed could someone possibly assess it accurately.

Capt'n Midnight

briany wrote: »

What's better evidence of where the BBC really sits is to have an independent, unbiased, thorough analysis of all coverage since the start of the referendum campaign to now.

In this case anything other than Remain is a varying degree of soft to hard Brexit.


Balance isn't the mid point between the most extreme views.

It's like arguing that murder vs mass murder is a good compromise between total genocide and not killing anyone.


Has the BBC highlighted that
- by leaving the UK has handed control back to EU over our entire relationship until a new deal is done
- which means things like visas, expats rights, flights, tariffs, energy exports, mutual recognitions, data transfers for services and security can be revoked without notice at any time ?

Has the BBC highlighted that
- the main competitive advantage the UK would have against the EU after Brexit is if they reduce workers rights and(or) govt spending on health and welfare ?
- and that theory has already proved false as the fall in sterling has resulted in a real cut in pay but without a corresponding boom in exports. So further attacks on workers pay or hours or conditions would have to be savage. (remember the gain in employment is matched by a huge reduction in investment , it's cheaper to get rid of temporary workers than it is to pay for loans on unused equipment)

A Dub in Glasgo

The Tory line line of 'Scotland get back in your box' and stop carping on about how you are ignored is starting to have an affect

Latest YouGov poll in Scotland

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1122055361253584897
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1122055370128621571

briany

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In this case anything other than Remain is a varying degree of soft to hard Brexit.


Balance isn't the mid point between the most extreme views.

It's like arguing that murder vs mass murder is a good compromise between total genocide and not killing anyone.


Has the BBC highlighted that
- by leaving the UK has handed control back to EU over our entire relationship until a new deal is done
- which means things like visas, expats rights, flights, tariffs, energy exports, mutual recognitions, data transfers for services and security can be revoked without notice at any time ?

Has the BBC highlighted that
- the main competitive advantage the UK would have against the EU after Brexit is if they reduce workers rights and(or) govt spending on health and welfare ?
- and that theory has already proved false as the fall in sterling has resulted in a real cut in pay but without a corresponding boom in exports. So further attacks on workers pay or hours or conditions would have to be savage. (remember the gain in employment is matched by a huge reduction in investment , it's cheaper to get rid of temporary workers than it is to pay for loans on unused equipment)

There is more a spectrum of beliefs on Brexit, i.e. between those who favour staying in all current European institutions, those who favour leaving all current European institutions, and all those in between who support Leave or Remain could live with the various proposed compromises on offer. Brexit is a pretty vociferous political disagreement at times, but it's not really comparable to a discussion on genocide at all.

Since the British public holds differing views on Brexit, it's understandable they want to see those views get a fair hearing from their national broadcaster. That's what should be meant by balance - not that the BBC sit in the middle of the spectrum, but that they give fair time to those of differing opinions on the matter, and, most importantly, ask for factual debate.

But, to my original point, few seem to think that the BBC handles their point of view well, and it's getting harder to know if this is down to cognitive bias and anecdotal evidence or not. Which is why independent data (exhaustive and thorough as possible) would be better, to see how the points you made are handled (if at all), and if the direction of the BBC is a top-down thing, or is a result of too many presenters leaning one way or the other.

Leroy42

The BBC should start every interview with a Brexiteer with asking them to prove what Brexit actually meant. And that leaving the EU was being accomplished by the WA and so why are they so against it.

Headshot

I finally got around to watching "Brexit The Clock is Ticking", a fascinating watch. Gave a really in-dept look in the background of the negations from the EU side.

Great to have someone like Barnier on our side.

Tell me how

Headshot wrote: »

I finally got around to watching "Brexit The Clock is Ticking", a fascinating watch. Gave a really in-dept look in the background of the negations from the EU side.

Great to have someone like Barnier on our side.

What has been surprising has been the derth of talent on the UK negotiating side. No one has represented in a way that you think they are capable to be operating at the international level which they are in.

Apparently, Sir Ivan Rogers (former permanent representative to the EU) is a UK person who was probably at the level of Barnier but he was too strongly pro-EU to have been involved in negotiating but the way he was let step away showed very poor management on May's part.

briany

Tell me how wrote: »

What has been surprising has been the derth of talent on the UK negotiating side. No one has represented in a way that you think they are capable to be operating at the international level which they are in.

Apparently, Sir Ivan Rogers (former permanent representative to the EU) is a UK person who was probably at the level of Barnier but he was too strongly pro-EU to have been involved in negotiating but the way he was let step away showed very poor management on May's part.

Well, that's the thing - the UK didn't have its entire talent pool of politicians and civil servants to pick from when it came to dispatching a negotiating team to Brussels. If for public relations reasons alone, they had to send people who were on board with that cause.

Jim2007

Headshot wrote: »

Great to have someone like Barnier on our side.

Barnier is one of the most respected negotiators in the world. Putting him up against an amateur like Davis and there was never any doubt about how this was going to go.

Plus the UK forgot that they were no longer a member, but a third country and the EU never splits in favour of a third country. If they did it would open up all kinds of problems for them in the many treaties they have under way.

A Dub in Glasgo

My polling card came today

First Up

Jim2007 wrote:

Barnier is one of the most respected negotiators in the world. Putting him up against an amateur like Davis and there was never any doubt about how this was going to go.

More to it than negotiating skills. Barnier has been meticulous in consulting with member states and keeping the parliament informed at every step. This has ensured that he has a clear mandate and unity among the 27.

Contrast that with the chaos in the UK - even within the cabinet, not to mention the wider Tory party.

Inquitus

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

My polling card came today

SNIP

Who's standing in your constituency? which parties?

An Ciarraioch

Inquitus wrote: »

Who's standing in your constituency? which parties?

Scotland is a single constituency, so he can vote for SNP, Scottish Greens or any of the London-based parties.

An Ciarraioch

Meanwhile, the European elections may well end up snowballing towards a no-deal Brexit:

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1122177790701445121

Inquitus

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Meanwhile, the European elections may well end up snowballing towards a no-deal Brexit:

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1122177790701445121

If remain can't get their shít together and coalesce around the best candidate in each constituency then it will end up being a Brexit nightmare.

briany

Jim2007 wrote: »

Barnier is one of the most respected negotiators in the world. Putting him up against an amateur like Davis and there was never any doubt about how this was going to go.

Barnier may well be a better negotiator than Davis, by far, but it's really the fact that the EU had most of the leverage going in. It's hard to really out-negotiate someone if you have less to negotiate with, and it's especially hard when that fact is pretty obvious. That's why the EU was able to set the negotiation timetable, and that's why the UK has asked for not one but two extensions. For all the jowl-wobbling cries of "They need us more than we need them!" coming from the usual suspects in the UK, the opposite has been true to anyone with eyes and ears and even a pretence of impartiality.