Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

Water John wrote: »

Juncker said the other day, one of his big regrets was taking Cameron's advice and not getting involved in the original 2016 Brexit debate.

Hindsight is wonderful and we don't know if it would have turned the tide, but it couldn't have made things worse as the problem isn't that Brexit won, its that a specific type of Brexit didn't win.

Simon Coveney basically said it this morning that even removing May will not sort out the problems of the reality of Brexit.

Backstop still needed if May departs, Irish foreign minister says

He said: “Without a [withdrawal] deal, then we essentially have Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom, in a different customs union and a different single market, to the Republic of Ireland, which will be part of the EU customs union and single market. And if goods travel from one customs area to another, from one single market to another, there will need to be checks somewhere.”

Asked what would happen if May’s successor was determined to scrap the backstop arrangement in the withdrawal agreement, Coveney said: “These realities don’t change. This is not a personality-based issue. It is an evidence-based issue. Within the current withdrawal agreement that’s available … there are the flexibilities there to look at alternative arrangements to the backstop if they work. If they stand up, they can replace the backstop.

“But we have to move forward on the basis of knowing that we are not going to see the kind of damage done on the island of Ireland, that the imposition of a border would result in.”

I have bolded his quotes stating that the problem with Brexit is the reality of it all and whoever is in charge or by whatever margin they voted will not change the realities of the UK's international commitments and what Brexit would mean.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have noticed that the BBC are promoting the BRITISH tradition of the ENGLISH FA Cup Final between Manchester City and Watford.

I hope people in Scotland enjoy this British tradition, as they watch two English football teams decide the British English FA Cup Final.

And they say that the BBC are not biased.

I don't think that Scottish teams even take part in the FA cup competition, so technically it's the English FA cup.
Welsh teams do take part, but seldom get far.

The Scots have their own competition.

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think that Scottish teams even take part in the FA cup competition, so technically it's the English FA cup.
Welsh teams do take part, but seldom get far.

The Scots have their own competition.

Gretna did before moving to the Scottish system and then going under; and possibly the recreation would have been allowed to; but chose the Scottish system.

Berwick, in England; play in Scotland. TNS, in England, play in Wales. The UKs borders are not that solid for football!

Enzokk

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think that Scottish teams even take part in the FA cup competition, so technically it's the English FA cup.
Welsh teams do take part, but seldom get far.

The Scots have their own competition.

Yes, Welsh teams do take part and they fall under the English FA as they take part in English Leagues as well so the promotion is not wrong. If you wanted to highlight the delusional nature of the English and their importance, there was more than enough tweets about people crowing how 2 English teams are competing in a European final and somehow showing Johnny foreigner how it is done. The irony of 2 foreign managers and the goal scorers all being foreign and from minorities was neither here not there...

serfboard

First Up wrote: »

There is nothing in the currently beligerent US trading climate to encourage the UK to expect any better (if they are lucky) access to the US market than they currently enjoy as part of the EU - and they are likely to have to pay a price even for that.

And any trade deal with the US that violates the Good Friday Agreement?

"Don't even think about it", as Nancy Pelosi said.

FrancieBrady

I know it's a satirical site, but I thought it was absolutely criminal the way Bruce shut down Farage getting called out on his history of lies, on Question Time.

https://newsthump.com/2019/05/10/racist-views-are-only-racist-for-a-three-year-time-period-confirms-fiona-bruce/?fbclid=IwAR3b2d3K-VkzVq-BslY-mt_-exYpiDNfNEU7Gu25hhXkP3JBxwgZwAct9jM

Capt'n Midnight

The Lib Dems are trying to use "Bollocks to Brexit" as a slogan.

Since no one has mentioned it, it may not be getting the traction they need.


Bollocks is not a rude word. so

Irish Praetorian

I still feel as though Farage managed to slither his way into appearing to have come off well last night. Now undoubtedly part of this was due to him representing a significant portion of the population who seem to have drunk the Kool-Aid and are all for Brexit, but he also seemed to get away with quite a lot of haranguing and boorish behaviour that I'm surprised was tolerated, from correcting a guest on Norway having never been in the EU and repeating that several times while the guest tried to make a substantial point, to railing on about 'you got that wrong didn't you?' whilst another guest was speaking. That this conduct could proceed unmolested was sad, that it seemed to be lapped up by a large chunk of the audience is depressing.

Ideally he should have been hit and should BE HIT on a number of key points;

Every time he mentions Switzerland and Norway jump on their contributions to the EU budget and/or Schengen membership.
Every time he mentions getting a free trade deal with the EU (sans any obligations) bring up his previous predictions of 'French vintners and German car manufacturers' coming to the rescue.
Every time he mentions immigration mention the rising numbers of non-EU migrants and the lies told about Turkey joining the EU.
Every time he talks about metropolitan elites, bring up the outsourcers like Dyson or the financiers like Rees-Mogg.
And whenever he talks about 'believing in Britain' mention his 2018 claim that he never said Brexit was going to be a huge success.

FrancieBrady

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I still feel as though Farage managed to slither his way into appearing to have come off well last night. Now undoubtedly part of this was due to him representing a significant portion of the population who seem to have drunk the Kool-Aid and are all for Brexit, but he also seemed to get away with quite a lot of haranguing and boorish behaviour that I'm surprised was tolerated, from correcting a guest on Norway having never been in the EU and repeating that several times while the guest tried to make a substantial point, to railing on about 'you got that wrong didn't you?' whilst another guest was speaking. That this conduct could proceed unmolested was sad, that it seemed to be lapped up by a large chunk of the audience is depressing.

Ideally he should have been hit and should BE HIT on a number of key points;

Every time he mentions Switzerland and Norway jump on their contributions to the EU budget and/or Schengen membership.
Every time he mentions getting a free trade deal with the EU (sans any obligations) bring up his previous predictions of 'French vintners and German car manufacturers' coming to the rescue.
Every time he mentions immigration mention the rising numbers of non-EU migrants and the lies told about Turkey joining the EU.
Every time he talks about metropolitan elites, bring up the outsourcers like Dyson or the financiers like Rees-Mogg.
And whenever he talks about 'believing in Britain' mention his 2018 claim that he never said Brexit was going to be a huge success.

When the Labour grandee was allowed to get away with handwaving away the prospects of violence here, all was lost. The BBC is lost. A nation is lost.

Tikki Wang Wang

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I still feel as though Farage managed to slither his way into appearing to have come off well last night. Now undoubtedly part of this was due to him representing a significant portion of the population who seem to have drunk the Kool-Aid and are all for Brexit, but he also seemed to get away with quite a lot of haranguing and boorish behaviour that I'm surprised was tolerated, from correcting a guest on Norway having never been in the EU and repeating that several times while the guest tried to make a substantial point, to railing on about 'you got that wrong didn't you?' whilst another guest was speaking. That this conduct could proceed unmolested was sad, that it seemed to be lapped up by a large chunk of the audience is depressing.

Ideally he should have been hit and should BE HIT on a number of key points;

Every time he mentions Switzerland and Norway jump on their contributions to the EU budget and/or Schengen membership.
Every time he mentions getting a free trade deal with the EU (sans any obligations) bring up his previous predictions of 'French vintners and German car manufacturers' coming to the rescue.
Every time he mentions immigration mention the rising numbers of non-EU migrants and the lies told about Turkey joining the EU.
Every time he talks about metropolitan elites, bring up the outsourcers like Dyson or the financiers like Rees-Mogg.
And whenever he talks about 'believing in Britain' mention his 2018 claim that he never said Brexit was going to be a huge success.

That was a silly gaff by Soubury when she said Farage had said Norway left the EU. It ruined a very valid point. Dealing with Farage you need to on point and rock solid or else he will weasel his way out which he did.

FrancieBrady

Tikki Wang Wang wrote: »

That was a silly gaff by Soubury when she said Farage had said Norway left the EU. It ruined a very valid point. Dealing with Farage you need to on point and rock solid or else he will weasel his way out which he did.

I did think she would be able for him. But she was actually quite bad up until she put the '6000 quid' guy back in his box.

Irish Praetorian

While we're on the topic, did anyone else think the 'Nigel won't do anything about the system of Central Banks' guy in the audience was about 30 seconds away from telling us all how Jews were responsible for all the worlds wars? I just got that vibe, no-one else?

An Ciarraioch

May promises to leave mañana:

http://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1126961218231656450

An Ciarraioch

Senior Tory MP describes RoI as a "hostage" in negotiations:

http://twitter.com/CrispinBlunt/status/1126886830882938880

Ben Done

Farage leaves the scene of a car crash involving his chauffered Range Rover, seemingly unconcerned with the welfare of the 3 year old in the other car.

As an allegory for Brexit, it's pretty much all there.

https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1126961029223780352

Shelga

On BBC Any Questions last night, the awful Suella Braverman did the usual faux-outrage, foaming at the mouth thing when someone suggested a second referendum. “How DARE they... affront to democracy...” blah blah blah- 10 minutes previously she admitted her own government had failed miserably in delivering Brexit!

None of the other panellists picked up on this, a completely wasted opportunity. Brexiters are allowed to get away with so much complete rubbish. If Brexit is such an amazing idea, why have they failed so utterly to deliver it? Because there is no version of it that will ever get a majority.

The last 3 years have been a complete joke. The people of the UK are expecting the politicians to sort something out that they themselves have no idea how to implement. Time to take some personal responsibility by having a second referendum on May’s deal vs Remain.

FrancieBrady

Shelga wrote: »

On BBC Any Questions last night, the awful Suella Braverman did the usual faux-outrage, foaming at the mouth thing when someone suggested a second referendum. “How DARE they... affront to democracy...” blah blah blah- 10 minutes previously she admitted her own government had failed miserably in delivering Brexit!

None of the other panellists picked up on this, a completely wasted opportunity. Brexiters are allowed to get away with so much complete rubbish. If Brexit is such an amazing idea, why have they failed so utterly to deliver it? Because there is no version of it that will ever get a majority.

The last 3 years have been a complete joke. The people of the UK are expecting the politicians to sort something out that they themselves have no idea how to implement. Time to take some personal responsibility by having a second referendum on May’s deal vs Remain.

'Twas Amber Rudd, twere it not?

Shelga

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Twas Amber Rudd, twere it not?

Sorry, I was talking about the radio programme on BBC R4- slightly less rabid than QT... slightly. Probably because we can’t see the audience.

CalamariFritti

So am I reading this right that Brexit is basically off the agenda? Sure we have kicked the can down the road and sure the Europeans budged once they will budge twice so we can go right back to infighting and stop giving a sh1t about making that stupid thing actually happening? Thats what I'm reading between the lines of what's currently going on anyway. Am I somewhat accurate?

I predict they will be just as ready in October as they were in March and if Europe budges again I lose all hope in them. The March extension was a mistake tbh. Out you go, let the door not hit you in the back. But we're all too worried about a recession and the Tories knew it all along.

Enzokk

CalamariFritti wrote: »

So am I reading this right that Brexit is basically off the agenda? Sure we have kicked the can down the road and sure the Europeans budged once they will budge twice so we can go right back to infighting and stop giving a sh1t about making that stupid thing actually happening? Thats what I'm reading between the lines of what's currently going on anyway. Am I somewhat accurate?

I predict they will be just as ready in October as they were in March and if Europe budges again I lose all hope in them. The March extension was a mistake tbh. Out you go, let the door not hit you in the back. But we're all too worried about a recession and the Tories knew it all along.

In hindsight it is always easy to spot the mistakes. What the EU has done is give their members another 6 months to prepare for no-deal, if that is to be the outcome. It also gives another 6 months to possibly revoke from the UK side, which is the ultimate aim as it is what will cause the least harm to both the EU and UK.

And it possibly gives the UK the breathing space to agree to the WA and get the legislation through, although as you note it does seem as though it has been pushed to the back burner by the UK for the moment. It is most likely we end up in the same position as in March, only the date have been changed to October, but you should never be in a position where you feel you haven't done enough to try and prevent the worst outcome.

sink

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Senior Tory MP describes RoI as a "hostage" in negotiations:

http://twitter.com/CrispinBlunt/status/1126886830882938880

In reference to the video clip and the comments afterwords. It's very interesting because the two sides interpret the clip very different. To Remainer's it's perceived as a bit of banter, they are not being serious, they are mocking the fears expressed by Brexiters using hyperbole 'we've turned Britain into an EU colony'. To Brexiters it's interpreted as bare faced triumphalism, they believe that the two diplomats really are boasting about turning the UK into a colony because they believe that to be true, after all they've be told it over and over again by the leading figures in their movement. The two sides are not even living in the same reality.

devnull

BBC are showing how impartial they are as usual

https://twitter.com/haveigotnews/status/1126934743407370241

They don't seem to have a problem with Nigel Farage being on many times however.

I'm in the UK for a little while and honestly the coverage by some of the media is awfully biased, even on the local versions of the BBC output there is a horrible bias where people are being lied to and a complete lack of transparency.

I saw someone handing out Jeremy Corbyn leaflets yesterday and on the front page he said he would represent everyone whether they voted leave or remain, whilst inside there was lots of fence sitting, vague rhetoric and claims, without any kind of substance, meaning behind them or word on what actually he meant.

murphaph

A poster on another forum I read calls them Branch Jeremidians and reckons they are about to burn the place down to get their man into number 10 (ignoring the fact he seems fairly unelectable).

An Ciarraioch

I think we've reached peak Farage:

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1127250315257044993

Says much about FPTP, however, that the Tories would win 209 seats in this scenario, and the Brexit Party only 32.

Spanish Eyes

I know I’m not contributing much to the debate really, but I do have to laugh at this Democracy, Will of the people mantra now.

FPTP has to be the most UNDEMOCRATIC electoral system ever. But I do recognise that the Referendum was couched in a majority wins system.

I think it will be revoked myself.

Enzokk

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

I think we've reached peak Farage:

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1127250315257044993

Says much about FPTP, however, that the Tories would win 209 seats in this scenario, and the Brexit Party only 32.

That is interesting. Labour's policy of staying on the fence is doing nothing for them and they are not reacting to it. The Leavers are voting for either the Brexit Party or the Tories and the Remainers will most likely move towards the Libdems if they aren't careful. I think Corbyn will eventually move towards a remain position, the question will be whether it will be too late.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1127250825859014656

An Ciarraioch

Telegraph poll is even starker:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1127304570332426242

Electoral projection then gives the "predictable" projection of:

Lab 316
Con 179
SNP 55
Brexit 49
Lib Dems 28
NI 18
Plaid Cymru 4
Green 1

Enzokk

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Telegraph poll is even starker:

Electoral projection then gives the "predictable" projection of:

Lab 316
Con 179
SNP 55
Brexit 49
Lib Dems 28
NI 18
Plaid Cymru 4
Green 1

That is interesting. The Lib Dems has already said they would not go into coalition with Labour. Labour would need a deal with another party but I don't see who it would be. The SNP would demand a second independence referendum and no other party would have enough seats so get them a majority. Still won't sort out Brexit though.

Sam Russell

Enzokk wrote: »

That is interesting. The Lib Dems has already said they would not go into coalition with Labour. Labour would need a deal with another party but I don't see who it would be. The SNP would demand a second independence referendum and no other party would have enough seats so get them a majority. Still won't sort out Brexit though.

SNP might agree to a rerun on Brexit - WA or Revoke, with a promise of a Scottish Indy Ref 2 within a decade. That would be a good deal for them because an Indy Ref is not a clear win for the SNP yet.

The actual number of seats will be different. SNP getting 55/59 seats in Scotland.

Water John

The numbers make the Govn't after an election. That would be a reasonable deal for SNP but possibly Corbyn whilst remaining Leader of LB, not being PM.