Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

BonnieSituation

fly_agaric wrote: »

Snipped post

Only because the McDonald's had been banned serving them.

I'm annoyingly on Judeboys side. Even if I wouldn't have been quite as Helen Lovejoy about it.

These attacks usually galvanise a base. It serves no function for the attackers cause in the end.

---

Also, the Guardian today in their rolling coverage quoted a Bassett tweet. Again our former diplomat blames Ireland for Britain's woes.

Akrasia

Instead of throwing milkshakes they should be hounding him on social media, and every time he makes media and public appearance to explain who funds his party, who funds his lifestyle.

I cannot understand how a 'democracy' can allow a 'political party' with no membership to simply emerge into existence and run hundreds of candidates in an election with zero transparency over who funds it until after the election is over and it's too late to do anything about it.

Especially when the party is so closely associated with someone like Arron Banks who is already under investigation for illegal donations in a political campaign and has been directly funding Farage to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds over the past couple of years
(How is that not political corruption given the fact that Farage is an MEP and is taking enormous sums of money to engage in political activity in secret)

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48315552

Sam Russell

Well the BBC are repoting that the watchdog has begun an investigatin into The Brehttps://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48337499xit Party funding.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48337499

European elections 2019: Electoral Commission reviewing Brexit Party funding

An Ciarraioch

If Labour thought they had problems in Scotland, they're currently on course to lose Wales to Plaid Cymru:

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1130530433962303490

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1130530632541581312

megaten

judeboy101 wrote: »

Disgraceful ppl making fun of an assault on a politician. Imagine if it had been a knife or a brick, whatever your views on NF, no one should condone such behaviour. A labour political lost her life because of the belief that politicians are fair game.

Are you seriously comparing a milkshake to murder? That's literally insane.

CelticRambler

megaten wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing a milkshake to murder? That's literally insane.

Not at all insane. It is the very definition of "you've gotta start somewhere" when it comes to physical abuse. D'you think the Germans all woke up one day and thought it was OK to gas their Jewish neighbours? No, it was an insidious, progressive dehumanisation that started with simply describing them as "dirty".

As Akrasia points out, there's more than enough legitimate political ammunition to fire at these candidates without resorting to delinquent behaviour that inevitably strengthens the supporters of the milkshaken martyr.

Enzokk

I am going to do something I hate, I am going to defend the indefensible.

There is no justification for what is happening to Farage and other far right activists, but* I think this is as a result of these politicians and activists being allowed to lie and cheat and get away with it and still get airtime on the BBC. I think people feel that this is their way to protest against the likes of Farage because any other protest will not get any coverage or traction.


*This is to try and find a reason why, but it is still no justification. There are better ways to protest against Farage than what people are doing.

fly_agaric

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Only because the McDonald's had been banned serving them.

I'm annoyingly on Judeboys side. Even if I wouldn't have been quite as Helen Lovejoy about it.

These attacks usually galvanise a base. It serves no function for the attackers cause in the end.

---

Also, the Guardian today in their rolling coverage quoted a Bassett tweet. Again our former diplomat blames Ireland for Britain's woes.

True. Joke about rip-off cost of a 5 Guys milkshake aside, politicians being attacked like this when out canvassing etc. is not good. It gives a few cheap laughs to their opponents but that sort of low-level harassment becoming normalised is corrosive IMO & damages how politics is carried out.
The people doing it/approving of it should consider that (and think about what happens if their political opponents start applying the tactics too).

Akrasia

Farage is being investigated for failing to register any of the 'gifts' given to him by Banks
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-arron-banks-eu-authorities-investigation-gifts-tycoon-a8918946.html
Unfortunately, the penalties for breaching the rules on declaring conflicts of interest payments are a fine, and suspension from parliament (while maintaining voting rights) so the EU appear to be totally toothless when it comes to tackling political corruption.

Farage was already fined £35k to recoup some of the money he stole from the EU by claiming fraudulent expenses on staffing his office

Every single interview and public interaction with Farage need to focus on the funding for himself personally and the funding for his party and his own lack of transparency.

Farage and Banks got away with a lot of shenanigans in the brexit referendum campaign on the basis that the vote was 'non binding' so the election rules did not all apply. With the EU elections, there is a chance that breaches in election rules could result in criminal prosecutions.

It is a criminal act to make a false statement to the electoral commission or auditors when establishing a new political party, or to make false declarations or knowingly with-holding information on the source of donations

It's also a criminal offense to alter or destroy any records that may be required during the course of an audit or investigation.

Enzokk

Akrasia wrote: »

Farage is being investigated for failing to register any of the 'gifts' given to him by Banks
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-arron-banks-eu-authorities-investigation-gifts-tycoon-a8918946.html
Unfortunately, the penalties for breaching the rules on declaring conflicts of interest payments are a fine, and suspension from parliament (while maintaining voting rights) so the EU appear to be totally toothless when it comes to tackling political corruption.

Farage was already fined £35k to recoup some of the money he stole from the EU by claiming fraudulent expenses on staffing his office

Every single interview and public interaction with Farage need to focus on the funding for himself personally and the funding for his party and his own lack of transparency.

Farage and Banks got away with a lot of shenanigans in the brexit referendum campaign on the basis that the vote was 'non binding' so the election rules did not all apply. With the EU elections, there is a chance that breaches in election rules could result in criminal prosecutions.

It is a criminal act to make a false statement to the electoral commission or auditors when establishing a new political party, or to make false declarations or knowingly with-holding information on the source of donations

It's also a criminal offense to alter or destroy any records that may be required during the course of an audit or investigation.

This is good to keep the pressure on him and I think if people are going to protest, just ask him all the time about where his money comes from. That is a better way to protest than attacking him physically as he becomes a martyr, but if he is attacked for the way he composes himself and his party then he can only lose with his reaction.

Rjd2

Farage is dismal and I understand why he provokes so much loathing but the milkshake stuff is poor. Supposed serious journalists cheering it on like Corbyn fanboys such as Owen Jones and the Novarra Media lot are dismal.

I wonder what the reaction will be once Jez gets similar treatment?

Enzokk

Rjd2 wrote: »

Farage is dismal and I understand why he provokes so much loathing but the milkshake stuff is poor. Supposed serious journalists cheering it on like Corbyn fanboys such as Owen Jones and the Novarra Media lot are dismal.

I wonder what the reaction will be once Jez gets similar treatment?

Owen Jones has gone all in on the and drunk the Corbyn Kool-Aid and is unwilling to admit he is wrong. I think he probably knows he has backed the wrong horse but he has been defending Corbyn's Labour so much he cannot back out now. You can see with his tweets where he has to do some impressive gymnastics to defend Labour (Corbyn) positions. He was dismissive of the first People's March in October and his justification was that the Stop Iraq War march had more people and had no impact. But he would unashamedly tweet about smaller protests against the Saudi Arabia relationship with the UK. The hypocrisy of this is astonishing.

Novara Media is something else. I believe Aaron Bastani was trying to defend that some protesters were removed at one of the Labour events about Corbyn not backing a second referendum. He stated he saw no reason why people who doesn't fall in line should be silenced and removed. That is fascism, when you silence all that disagree with your view and he seems to think it is not just okay but the things you have to do. Dangerous doesn't even begin to describe it.

Corbyn has been attacked this year, the fact that its not well known tells you much I think.

Jeremy Corbyn egging: Brexiteer jailed for 28 days

megaten

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not at all insane. It is the very definition of "you've gotta start somewhere" when it comes to physical abuse. D'you think the Germans all woke up one day and thought it was OK to gas their Jewish neighbours? No, it was an insidious, progressive dehumanisation that started with simply describing them as "dirty".

As Akrasia points out, there's more than enough legitimate political ammunition to fire at these candidates without resorting to delinquent behaviour that inevitably strengthens the supporters of the milkshaken martyr.

That comparison doesn't make sense at all.

murphaph

Wouldn't be surprised if that was all staged.

Capt'n Midnight

From some number crunching over at slugger the Conservatives from 19 MEPs now will probably get just 4 and only Daniel Hannan's seat is safe. :eek:

Labour will also get a kicking.


The UK system means that the Remain groups would get perhaps 6 more MEP's if they were a singe remain list. D'Hondt is like FPTP in some ways.

An Ciarraioch

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

From some number crunching over at slugger the Conservatives from 19 MEPs now will probably get just 4 and only Daniel Hannan's seat is safe. :eek:

Labour will also get a kicking.


The UK system means that the Remain groups would get perhaps 6 more MEP's if they were a singe remain list. D'Hondt is like FPTP in some ways.

Hence various sites like Remain Voter and Tactical Vote attempting to calculate how to maximise Remain seat numbers in each region, across party lines.

http://twitter.com/votetools/status/1130215356566507525

Capt'n Midnight

BTW in case anyone missed it Chris Grayling's privatisation of the prohibition service has been reversed. Costs so far are half a billion. Dwarfs the ferry fiasco costs.

He's the Secretary of State for Transport. Considering how reliant the UK is on imports and exports it may need someone competent.

S.M.B.

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Hence various sites like Remain Voter and Tactical Vote attempting to calculate how to maximise Remain seat numbers in each region, across party lines.

http://twitter.com/votetools/status/1130215356566507525

That's not very helpful when it comes to London. Or else I'm reading that incorrectly.

demfad

Source articles for the Brexit Party Paypal scandal can be found on Byline Times.

This is the latest. Any questions about potential perils awaiting The Brexit Party or how thw law may be being broken, feeel free to ask.

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/05/20/paypal-man-questions-the-electoral-commission-must-ask-the-brexit-party/

Enzokk

demfad wrote: »

Source articles for the Brexit Party Paypal scandal can be found on Byline Times.

This is the latest. Any questions about potential perils awaiting The Brexit Party or how thw law may be being broken, feeel free to ask.

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/05/20/paypal-man-questions-the-electoral-commission-must-ask-the-brexit-party/

So it seems like The Brexit Party is using the ambiguity in the Electoral Commission rules that states you don't have to take the details for donations less than £50 (or £500, I am not sure) and any donations more than £500 cannot be from anyone outside the UK.

The rules and laws around donations doesn't seem fit for purpose in this regard. You cannot accept donations from overseas, but you don't have to take details if donations are less than a certain amount. So how do you know where the money is coming from? That is some oversight from the Electoral Commission and it is no surprise that charlatans would take advantage of this.

Rjd2

Enzokk wrote: »

Owen Jones has gone all in on the and drunk the Corbyn Kool-Aid and is unwilling to admit he is wrong. I think he probably knows he has backed the wrong horse but he has been defending Corbyn's Labour so much he cannot back out now. You can see with his tweets where he has to do some impressive gymnastics to defend Labour (Corbyn) positions. He was dismissive of the first People's March in October and his justification was that the Stop Iraq War march had more people and had no impact. But he would unashamedly tweet about smaller protests against the Saudi Arabia relationship with the UK. The hypocrisy of this is astonishing.

Novara Media is something else. I believe Aaron Bastani was trying to defend that some protesters were removed at one of the Labour events about Corbyn not backing a second referendum. He stated he saw no reason why people who doesn't fall in line should be silenced and removed. That is fascism, when you silence all that disagree with your view and he seems to think it is not just okay but the things you have to do. Dangerous doesn't even begin to describe it.

Corbyn has been attacked this year, the fact that its not well known tells you much I think.

Jeremy Corbyn egging: Brexiteer jailed for 28 days

I actually remember that attack on Jez, but forgot about it Yesterday, I am an idiot.

Jones was actually a relatively interesting bloke until a few years ago, a little to earnest, but harmless. However a few years ago he began to voice his concerns over Jez winning an election, and over last few years it seems like he has tried to over compensate to win back the support of the Jez die hard massive. Its a shame.

Bastani however has always been a bad egg, unpleasant and not interesting whatsoever. The Sarkar lass seems to be their main hope to go mainstream, she is sharper and more interesting than Bastani, but still not a massive fan and someone whose work if you look at in any detail,,meh.

Akrasia

Enzokk wrote: »

So it seems like The Brexit Party is using the ambiguity in the Electoral Commission rules that states you don't have to take the details for donations less than £50 (or £500, I am not sure) and any donations more than £500 cannot be from anyone outside the UK.

The rules and laws around donations doesn't seem fit for purpose in this regard. You cannot accept donations from overseas, but you don't have to take details if donations are less than a certain amount. So how do you know where the money is coming from? That is some oversight from the Electoral Commission and it is no surprise that charlatans would take advantage of this.

Where i think they'll get caught is on repeated small donations from the same source in order to circumvent the restrictions on declaring donations and on foreign donations.

I think they could be in trouble if they made any claims or assurances to the commission that they weren't accepting foreign donations while putting in place a system that makes it either impossible to verify the source, or easy to cover it up.

IAmTheReign

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not at all insane. It is the very definition of "you've gotta start somewhere" when it comes to physical abuse. D'you think the Germans all woke up one day and thought it was OK to gas their Jewish neighbours? No, it was an insidious, progressive dehumanisation that started with simply describing them as "dirty".

As Akrasia points out, there's more than enough legitimate political ammunition to fire at these candidates without resorting to delinquent behaviour that inevitably strengthens the supporters of the milkshaken martyr.

I don't think anyone on here is condoning or actively encouraging that kind of behaviour but it's hard not to empathise with the people who feel they've been ignored throughout the whole Brexit process. I think this kind of behaviour is almost inevitable when the democratic process breaks down and the public are ignored. The Brexit vote won narrowly on the back of illegal funding and outright lies, calls for a second referendum ignored, a million people marching on London ignored, and a collapse in Tory support at local elections taken as a message to 'just get on with it', and all this while parliament sits on their collective hands and totally abdicate responsibility for governing.

murphaph

If they are really stupid they will be accepting large numbers of donations via automated scripts running in the middle of the UK night. That will or should at least set the alarm bells ringing.

Capt'n Midnight

While the two main parties try to score points this is an example of what's happening to the economy.
British Steel on verge of administration

The UK's second-biggest steel maker had been trying to secure £75m in financial support to help it to address "Brexit-related issues".

If the firm does not get the cash it would put 4,000 jobs at risk and endanger 20,000 in the supply chain.

...
British Steel's troubles have been linked to a slump in orders from European customers ‎due to uncertainty over the Brexit process.

The firm has also been struggling with the weakness of the pound since the EU referendum in June 2016 and the escalating trade US-China trade war.

soirish

UK and Ireland sign deal to guarantee rights of citizens after Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/08/british-irish-deal-guarantee-rights-citizens-after-brexit

Good news.

ToBeFrank123

Another constituency that didn't think it through.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48347371

British Steel is on the verge of administration as it continues to lobby for government backing, sources say.
The UK's second-biggest steel maker had been trying to secure £75m in financial support to help it to address "Brexit-related issues".
If the firm does not get the cash it would put 4,500 jobs at risk and endanger 20,000 in the supply chain.

https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2016-06-24/eu-referendum-north-lincolnshire-votes-to-leave-the-eu/

Leroy42

TBF, British Steel has been in serious trouble for years. Brexit or No Brexit things were always going to be pretty rough in that sector.

So you can understand why they might have voted for Brexit, given that being in the EU hadn't saved them. Of course they missed the fact that the EU really had nothing to do with it, save for the UK government not being able to subsidise it due to EU rules. But the Thatcher government, and of course the current Tories are very much in the same thinking, would never dream of helping them so they were going to lose either way.

And that is where the folly falls apart. Whilst I understand that people are upset with globalisation, with lack of services etc, they have chosen the wrong target to deal with it. But they have no plan on what they are going to do after Brexit of how any of the ideas they do have will make things better.

Take the fish for example. Whilst I can see the individual fishermens' point, the real issue is that the government abandoned them and allowed the quotas to be sold off. The real problem is the UK politicians and government. Yet they have turned to those very people to 'save' them. Including Farage, who is now apparently going to lead a charge of change within the EU despite having sat there for the last 23 years and done almost nothing.

demfad

Enzokk wrote: »

So it seems like The Brexit Party is using the ambiguity in the Electoral Commission rules that states you don't have to take the details for donations less than £50 (or £500, I am not sure) and any donations more than £500 cannot be from anyone outside the UK.

The rules and laws around donations doesn't seem fit for purpose in this regard. You cannot accept donations from overseas, but you don't have to take details if donations are less than a certain amount. So how do you know where the money is coming from? That is some oversight from the Electoral Commission and it is no surprise that charlatans would take advantage of this.

THis article explains it also.

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/05/16/never-seen-anything-like-it-the-funding-of-the-brexit-party-needs-urgent-investigation/


It is illegal to accept donations form an impermissable doner.

If for example the doner is non UK and donates over £500 this is impermissable.

It should not matter if the donation is in a big lump sum or several small ones.

What the BP is doing is assuming that ALL < £500 donations are individual one off donations and minimizing their ability to detect otherwise.

It's like a man putting on a blind fold of his own design, standing inside a wardrope and then stating.."I tried my best but did not see anything".

The BP must be able to tell if a donation is impermissable.

As you will read in the article many many red flags pointing towards this potentially beinga deliberate architecture by The Brexit Party.

ToBeFrank123

Re the fish, lifting EU quotas will help the fishing industry in the short term, but in the end will destroy the industry.

Fishing is an industry that needs heavy regulation and national governments particularly those who need votes from fishing areas aren't always the best to do it.