Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Donald Trump

recedite wrote: »

A soft (but not totally frictionless) border could have been achieved post Brexit, but it would have required RoI to pursue a different, less antagonistic, strategy.

Genuine question. What sources do you get your news/information from?


"RoI" stance has merely been to stand over the GFA that they are a signatory to.

Water John

It seems Lidington had given the EU the impression yesterday that the letter would be for a long ext. When it arrived it was for a short ext. WTF.

TM didn't go the 1922 Committee this evening. It was said she would have been attacked if she had turned up.

Inquitus

Donald Trump wrote: »

Genuine question. What sources do you get your news/information from?


"RoI" stance has merely been to stand over the GFA that they are a signatory to.

With respect Mr Trump, he gets his news from the same places you do

Inquitus

Water John wrote: »

It seems Lidington had given the EU the impression yesterday that the letter would be for a long ext. When it arrived it was for a short ext. WTF.

Aye, the Brexiteers in the Cabinet basically threatened to resign enmasse, splitting the Tories badly in the process, and May took the option of putting her Party before her Country again.

recedite

Inquitus wrote: »

LOL, what a load of nonsense, we have all see how the Swiss German border is on the various news, current affairs shows, frictionless it is not. It also doesn't have the @200 crossing points our border has, Sweden - Norway has 40 for instance and Switzerland - Germany 42. Not to mention both of those pairs subscribe to European standards and Freedom of Movement.

Are you including gravel roads in that estimate? You know Britain and Ireland are probably the only places in the world that try to keep all the tiny boreens and minor roads tarred?


Anyway, you have missed my point entirely. Those borders are not frictionless. They are soft. And people living in those border regions are quite happy with them.

Anteayer

To be perfectly honest, I don't buy these conspiracy theories about "Brussels". They've been very transparent about what they're doing, far more so than the manipulative, paranoid, delusional nonsense coming out of London for the last two years.

Irish and EU interests align on this because they're one and the same thing. Also, nobody wants to see chaos in Northern Ireland. Most of Europe remembers the horrors of the 1970s, 80s and early 90s. It was one of the most dangerous civil conflicts in Europe for decades, far worse than what was going on in the Basque Country or anywhere else. It was almost at the level of a civil war, in Western Europe in the later part of the 20th century.

They also are very familiar with the DUP and its former leader hurling abuse at the Pope during a courtesy visit to the EP back in the day.

They're genuinely standing by a member of the EU that's being threatened and exposed by a soon to be former member that's extremely hostile the whole European project and has been for years.

Joe_ Public

Water John wrote: »

It seems Lidington had given the EU the impression yesterday that the letter would be for a long ext. When it arrived it was for a short ext. WTF.

TM didn't go the 1922 Committee this evening. It was said she would have been attacked if she had turned up.

The old right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing. Sounds even like her most senior ministers might be out of the loop, or she’s just making it all up in the fly. Anything seems possible.

PokeHerKing

Inquitus wrote:

It only takes a majority of the HoC to set aside Bercow's ruling, so if you have a majority for the deal, you might conclude you have a majority to set aside the ruling.

We know there is no majority for her deal. So there can be no mv3?

Or will they need to vote on whether they can vote again..?

Shambles.

First Up

recedite wrote:

I'll agree with the first part, disagree with the middle part, and as for the last part - lets just say we have been "extremely useful" to Brussels. They have always wanted to make exiting the union as difficult and costly as possible,

Who are "they" and who specifically is "Brussels"?

Your post exemplifies the fundamental incomprehension of what the EU is and is about that has resulted in the UK's disastrous attempts to leave it.

VonZan

Corbyn proving again what a complete embarrassment he is. Complete shambles on both sides of the house. No leadership on either side.

Inquitus

PokeHerKing wrote: »

We know there is no majority for her deal. So there can be no mv3?

Or will they need to vote on whether they can vote again..?

Shambles.

Aye, they need to vote to vote again, but then that's her play here, chaotic no deal versus her deal, try and bludgeon it through. No new ideas, no common sense, no leadership, frankly she is an utter disgrace at this point.

sink

recedite wrote: »

Are you including gravel roads in that estimate? You know Britain and Ireland are probably the only places in the world that try to keep all the tiny boreens and minor roads tarred?


Anyway, you have missed my point entirely. Those borders are not frictionless. They are soft. And people living in those border regions are quite happy with them.

How long have Switzerland borders been set? I haven't a clue but my guess would be longer than the UK has been a united kingdom. Also, ask yourself what natural barriers might exist that separates Switzerland populace from it's immediate neighbours? I'll give you a hint, it starts with m and ends with ountains.

Podge_irl

recedite wrote: »

Are you including gravel roads in that estimate? You know Britain and Ireland are probably the only places in the world that try to keep all the tiny boreens and minor roads tarred?


Anyway, you have missed my point entirely. Those borders are not frictionless. They are soft. And people living in those border regions are quite happy with them.

I cross the Swiss-French border a couple hundred times a year. Phenomenally easy on foot. Often pretty nasty tailbacks in a car. Can be pretty horrendous for heavy goods.

I'm also not super happy with it as it is incredibly difficult to get things shipped over the border and living in one country while working in the other causes an absolutely shedload of hassle.

recedite

Donald Trump wrote: »

Genuine question. What sources do you get your news/information from?


"RoI" stance has merely been to stand over the GFA that they are a signatory to.

Donald, wheres your trousers?
GFA says nothing about maintaining frictionless borders.
Some fool even went to court over that issue, and lost.
Repeating a trope ad nauseum does not make it come true.

PokeHerKing

MrMusician18 wrote:

I think the idea is that if the Strasbourg agreement is endorsed by the council tomorrow, May is hoping that will be enough for it to be considered a new proposition.

I've taken my eye off the Brexit ball this week. What's the Strasbourg agreement? What's new in it for an mv3?

Spanish Eyes

May will say there will be no more votes, the EU can fekk off, we are out.

I promised I would deliver Brexit and this is the only way I can do it now, since the EU are so intransigent yada yada. Sayonara.

(But she will more than likely repeat the will of people sh!te and so on). Or maybe resign, unlikely IMO.

We are sure living in interesting times.

arccosh

Genuine questions here..

Ireland are in the black now after austerity, correct? I thought we were nearly 2 years now

Also what is our growing debt compared to gdp?

I don't know why the change in argument.. But I've been hit with:

"Ireland wouldn't be where it is if the uk didnt bail you out,and we'll get our money back even if we're out of europe"

Also..
"Ireland's debt is growing at 50% gdp and the uk is bailing out the pigs (Portugal, ireland, greece spain)"

In the uk this week...

Laois_Man

recedite wrote: »

Brexit, but it would have required RoI to pursue a different, less antagonistic, strategy.

Please tell us what it is all the experts have missed!

devnull

This is typical Jeremy Corbyn isn't it, every time the government manage to really mess something up badly and look even more in disarray than ever before, instead of taking advantage of it he manages to score a spectacular own goal.

You have two party leaders who are absolutely useless at what they are doing and each one is being enabled by the fact that each other are so bad. If even one party had a proper leader it could be avoided.

Both are too busy pushing their own agendas to bother thinking about what the national interest is for the UK. Jeremy Corbyn is full of hate for people who left his party and wants a general election no matter what the cost, whilst Theresa May is sucking up to the ERG and letting them call her tune and is too scared to stand up to them.

devnull

May is going to address the nation shortly.

Whatever she talks about, you can be sure that the National Interest won't be her first priority.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

recedite wrote: »

Oh there are plans now, including various promises being made to the beef and dairy farmers to compensate them for the collapse in exports that would result from tariffs.

What I'm saying is that there was precious little planning done until just before Christmas when it became obvious that the UK parliament was going to reject the WA. PM May responded by postponing the "meaningful vote" and Varadkar responded by rushing to publish a vague "Contingency Plan" lacking any substance.
Neither leader had expected the WA to be rejected, hence neither had prepared a Plan B.

Plan B is a hard border, I don't see any credible alternative. Not sure what's so difficult to comprehend here.

Inquitus

arccosh wrote: »

Genuine questions here..

Ireland are in the black now after austerity, correct? I thought we were nearly 2 years now

Also what is our growing debt compared to gdp?

I don't know why the change in argument.. But I've been hit with:

"Ireland wouldn't be where it is if the uk didnt bail you out,and we'll get our money back even if we're out of europe"

Also..
"Ireland's debt is growing at 50% gdp and the uk is bailing out the pigs (Portugal, ireland, greece spain)"

In the uk this week...

We offered to pay the UK back early, a few years back, but they like the high interest loan and refused.

Ireland's public finances are in surplus now and our debt to GDP is going down, especially with the big GDP growth we have tacked on annually for the past few years.

Donald Trump

recedite wrote: »

Donald, wheres your trousers?
GFA says nothing about maintaining frictionless borders.
Some fool even went to court over that issue, and lost.
Repeating a trope ad nauseum does not make it come true.

You should read the link before you post it. The court ruling was that they did not have the authority to overrule a political decision.


There is a thing called confirmation bias.

Nody

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

May will say there will be no more votes, the EU can fekk off, we are out.

I promised I would deliver Brexit and this is the only way I can do it now, since the EU are so intransigent yada yada. Sayonara.

(But she will more than likely repeat the will of people sh!te and so on). Or maybe resign, unlikely IMO.

We are sure living in interesting times.

You are talking about the PM who's gone out of her way to avoid making any decisions if at all possible at every turn and who's opinion and view point changes direction more often than a flag in a storm. She'll waffle, she'll be angry and she'll do sod all as always pretending that it's actually sunny outside and that her deal will be voted through because "it's the only option on the table".

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

arccosh wrote: »

Genuine questions here..

Ireland are in the black now after austerity, correct? I thought we were nearly 2 years now

Also what is our growing debt compared to gdp?

I don't know why the change in argument.. But I've been hit with:

"Ireland wouldn't be where it is if the uk didnt bail you out,and we'll get our money back even if we're out of europe"

Also..
"Ireland's debt is growing at 50% gdp and the uk is bailing out the pigs (Portugal, ireland, greece spain)"

In the uk this week...

68% and falling; significantly lower than the UK at 87.7%

UsedToWait

Has Tusk pulled the rug from the People's Vote crowd?
Surely this is either May's deal or no deal time now..

Has parliament got the nerve to vote down her deal again?

Headshot

How is the Prime Minister is so hell bent on keeping her party together instead of a being real leader of your country. It's such sad state of affairs.

May will go down in the history books of being the worse PM in British History

Spanish Eyes

Nody wrote: »

You are talking about the PM who's gone out of her way to avoid making any decisions if at all possible at every turn and who's opinion and view point changes direction more often than a flag in a storm. She'll waffle, she'll be angry and she'll do sod all as always pretending that it's actually sunny outside and that her deal will be voted through because "it's the only option on the table".

Yes I agree, I was being sardonic in my post.

But hope springs eternal.

Irish Praetorian

sink wrote: »

How long have Switzerland borders been set? I haven't a clue but my guess would be longer than the UK has been a united kingdom. Also, ask yourself what natural barriers might exist that separates Switzerland populace from it's immediate neighbours? I'll give you a hint, it starts with m and ends with ountains.

2002 actually, occasioned by a change of change from French to Swiss hands. To be fair though there were more substantial changes in 1950, 1861 and (kinda) 1848, but the majority of the borders date from 1815.

Enzokk

devnull wrote: »

This is typical Jeremy Corbyn isn't it, every time the government manage to really mess something up badly and look even more in disarray than ever before, instead of taking advantage of it he manages to score a spectacular own goal.

You have two party leaders who are absolutely useless at what they are doing and each one is being enabled by the fact that each other are so bad. If even one party had a proper leader it could be avoided.

Both are too busy pushing their own agendas to bother thinking about what the national interest is for the UK. Jeremy Corbyn is full of hate for people who left his party and wants a general election no matter what the cost, whilst Theresa May is sucking up to the ERG and letting them call her tune and is too scared to stand up to them.

It seems clear that Corbyn is not very good at thinking on his feet. You can see this at PMQs where he doesn't focus on an answer from May and seems to be keeping to a script. You can also see it on Labour positions that seem to change by the minute sometimes. At one moment they are opposing an amendment and the next moment they are supporting it. This is another own goal. He defended his meetings with Hezbollah by saying you need to meet with those whose opinions you don't agree with, but he cannot stand to be in the same room as Umunna?