Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Jizique

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The Telegraph isn't reporting anything about 1,000,000 people marching or a petition by over 4,000,000. That's odd. Perhaps their fax is broken or their telephone lines are down. Must be something like that.

Yes, I was checking the site just now.
The have history expert Hanann with another of his fantasies as the top story.
Much much lower down, they have a story on the March where various of the usual suspects rubbish the number of attendees.

Frank Bullitt

DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson calls for the Republic to rejoin the Commonwealth

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-s-jeffrey-donaldson-calls-for-the-republic-to-rejoin-the-commonwealth-1.3836771?fbclid=IwAR1KGQObDqjMLUVZupRHvXJz5Ib_8rjbU7DETjLReRSGZPbixMVFRGZjMDg

Can someone remind me, when was Ireland ever a member of the Commonwealth?

Inquitus

Gintonious wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-s-jeffrey-donaldson-calls-for-the-republic-to-rejoin-the-commonwealth-1.3836771?fbclid=IwAR1KGQObDqjMLUVZupRHvXJz5Ib_8rjbU7DETjLReRSGZPbixMVFRGZjMDg

Can someone remind me, when was Ireland ever a member of the Commonwealth?

Eire, as the Republic of Ireland was known, was a member of the Commonwealth until 18 April 1949 when The Republic of Ireland Act 1948 (adopted on 24 November 1948) came into force severing all formal ties with the British Crown.

Kermit.de.frog

Fine Gael Taoiseach on tv right now thanking independents for their "comradeship" in government.

Strange times indeed.

Sardonicat

Gintonious wrote: »

DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson calls for the Republic to rejoin the Commonwealth

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-s-jeffrey-donaldson-calls-for-the-republic-to-rejoin-the-commonwealth-1.3836771?fbclid=IwAR1KGQObDqjMLUVZupRHvXJz5Ib_8rjbU7DETjLReRSGZPbixMVFRGZjMDg

Can someone remind me, when was Ireland ever a member of the Commonwealth?

AFAIK, between 1922 and 48/49, when we declared ourselves a Republic. Long time since LC History so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

judeboy101

Gintonious wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-s-jeffrey-donaldson-calls-for-the-republic-to-rejoin-the-commonwealth-1.3836771?fbclid=IwAR1KGQObDqjMLUVZupRHvXJz5Ib_8rjbU7DETjLReRSGZPbixMVFRGZjMDg

Can someone remind me, when was Ireland ever a member of the Commonwealth?

Right up to the rep of Ireland act we were technically still subjects of the monarch from an international perspective. The Balfour declaration mentions all subjects of the monarch not individual countries.

Imreoir2

Gintonious wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-s-jeffrey-donaldson-calls-for-the-republic-to-rejoin-the-commonwealth-1.3836771?fbclid=IwAR1KGQObDqjMLUVZupRHvXJz5Ib_8rjbU7DETjLReRSGZPbixMVFRGZjMDg

Can someone remind me, when was Ireland ever a member of the Commonwealth?

1922 - 1949. Dominion status under the Anglo-Irish Treaty ment continuing to be part of the British Empire (aka The Commonwealth). We actually palyed an important part in wrecking the empire in its final decades, by constantly encouraging other members to stand up to England and take more power over their own affairs. This led to Ireland being termed the "restless dominion". This ultimatly left the former Empire as a loose collection of countries with the UK being just one nation among equals. We also never left as such, we never applied to leave of announced our departure, when we became a republic that was taken to mean that we would no longer remain a member as no member of the British Commonwealth was a republic at the time.

Enzokk

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Unfortunately, while hundreds of thousands were marching against Brexit today Jeremy Corbyn decided to visit Morecambe for a local election campaign:

https://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/jeremy-corbyn-to-visit-morecambe-as-labour-unveils-bold-ambitious-blueprint-for-a-brighter-future-1-9667536

Meanwhile, Margaret Georgiadou who started the petition which broke 4 million signatures has received death threats:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47678275

Corbyn supporters will point to the fact that he tried to pursue a vote for a second referendum (20 January this year I think) as proof that he his following the Labour pledge. But the optics of him not attending the march today and his lackluster performance when it comes to a second referendum spell out the truth for me. At least his attack dogs, Owen Jones and Aron Bastani and the likes, did not mock the march again today like they did the previous one. They sent out good luck messages but that is probably as they realised what hypocrites they were for not supporting it.

As for sending death threats to the person who started the petition, that is a totally normal reaction. I mean who doesn't like to threaten the person who is in your way? This is why a second referendum is needed I think, to make sure that this is what the people in the UK wants. Going around in circles and ignoring the illegality of the Leave campaign and the realities that we know now should be tested again in a vote. Those ridiculing it should realise that the benefits for them with another win will cement the Brexit they want. The other option is that it is not the will of the people, and how you can be upset by supporting democracy seems just strange to me.

Frank Bullitt

Imreoir2 wrote: »

1922 - 1949. Dominion status under the Anglo-Irish Treaty ment continuing to be part of the British Empire (aka The Commonwealth). We actually palyed an important part in wrecking the empire in its final decades, by constantly encouraging other members to stand up to England and take more power over their own affairs. This led to Ireland being termed the "restless dominion". This ultimatly left the former Empire as a loose collection of countries with the UK being just one nation among equals. We also never left as such, we never applied to leave of announced our departure, when we became a republic that was taken to mean that we would no longer remain a member as no member of the British Commonwealth was a republic at the time.

I don't think they need our help in wrecking it anymore.

fash

sink wrote: »

I wouldn't be opposed to joining la Francophonie or the Organization of Ibero-American States but as we don't commonly speak French or Spanish/Portuguese ...

Speak for yourself.

ancapailldorcha

Enzokk wrote: »

Corbyn supporters will point to the fact that he tried to pursue a vote for a second referendum (20 January this year I think) as proof that he his following the Labour pledge. But the optics of him not attending the march today and his lackluster performance when it comes to a second referendum spell out the truth for me. At least his attack dogs, Owen Jones and Aron Bastani and the likes, did not mock the march again today like they did the previous one. They sent out good luck messages but that is probably as they realised what hypocrites they were for not supporting it.

Well, that's two out of two marches involving many hundreds of thousands he's missed. Labour for a Socialist Europe were there and there were people distributing socialist literature such as Solidarity.

Labour is supposed to oppose the government. Missing this in such a visible way is catastrophic. If Corbyn had something equally important, that'd be one thing but this just shows him to be an ideologue who is more concerned with himself that the people he says he wants to govern for.

Enzokk wrote: »

As for sending death threats to the person who started the petition, that is a totally normal reaction. I mean who doesn't like to threaten the person who is in your way? This is why a second referendum is needed I think, to make sure that this is what the people in the UK wants. Going around in circles and ignoring the illegality of the Leave campaign and the realities that we know now should be tested again in a vote. Those ridiculing it should realise that the benefits for them with another win will cement the Brexit they want. The other option is that it is not the will of the people, and how you can be upset by supporting democracy seems just strange to me.

It shouldn't be normal. Nor should Anna Soubry needing escorts in central London be normal. Lloyd Russell-Moyle, MP for Brighton Kemptown near where I used to live was assaulted outside a Morrisons while speaking to People's Vote campaigners (Source). The Tories have done everything possible to widen the divide in British society and now they have the gall to use the threat of furthering that to undermine the campaign for a People's Vote.

Calina

sink wrote: »

We don't need to leave the EU to join the commonwealth. It's not an either/or option. We can be in both. The benefits of being in both are the fact that the majority of commonwealth members are not in the EU, so we expand our diplomatic footprint.

We do not need to be in the Commonwealth to do this. And we are heavily expanding our diplomatic footprint also in South America. Plus we already punch far above our weight. The Commonwealth may be detrimental to that.

Headshot

Corbyn should of been leading the protest today and could of been his biggest moment since becoming Labour leader but just shows how out of touch he is and with him in charge Labour will go no where and rot into obscurity

Valhallapt

What harm is there in joining the commonwealth?

I don’t see much value in the organization itself, but I think many unionists would welcome it, and if we’re to have a new Ireland their opinion is as valid as everyone else’s.

eire4

sink wrote: »

I'm not hearing any reasons to be anti-commonwealth other than it was founded by the British and has the British monarch as its symbolic head. If being anti-British are the only reasons for not joining then I think it qualifies as having a chip on ones shoulder.

Or maybe you just have an agenda and refuse to acknowledge that looking at the incompetence of the British government and not wanting to be part of any organization that is heading by said government is a perfectly valid reason. Or the fact that we are more then capable of doing it ourselves. Not surprising given your post you don't want to hear that another Irishman has valid ideas contrary to yours.

FrancieBrady

Valhallapt wrote: »

What harm is there in joining the commonwealth?

I don’t see much value in the organization itself, but I think many unionists would welcome it, and if we’re to have a new Ireland their opinion is as valid as everyone else’s.

The harm is, we are a republic. I don't care if other republics are members, in my opinion we would lose integrity being subordinates to a monarch in any organisation.

Unionists may like it, but we cannot undermine any new state just to appease.

Lemming

Valhallapt wrote: »

What harm is there in joining the commonwealth?

I don’t see much value in the organization itself, but I think many unionists would welcome it, and if we’re to have a new Ireland their opinion is as valid as everyone else’s.

Bear in mind, this is Jeffery Donaldson who made this suggestion. The same Jeffery Donaldson who concocted the "Love Ulster" parade. The commonwealth suggestion is - like the love ulster parade - an attempt at trolling. He's trying to stir the pot to find ammunition to play against the home gallery should he find their support for the DUP and/or the union wavering. We could rejoin. And then what? It wouldn't solve anything; we'd still be part of the EU so what exactly does he hope to achieve (save trolling for ammunition) ?

FrancieBrady

Lemming wrote: »

Bear in mind, this is Jeffery Donaldson who made this suggestion. The same Jeffery Donaldson who concocted the "Love Ulster" parade. The commonwealth suggestion is - like the love ulster parade - an attempt at trolling. He's trying to stir the pot to find ammunition to play against the home gallery should he find their support for the DUP and/or the union wavering. We could rejoin. And then what? It wouldn't solve anything; we'd still be part of the EU so what exactly does he hope to achieve (save trolling for ammunition) ?

And from a crew who can't even bring themselves to recognise our gaining of independence by attending centenary events.

Valhallapt

I’ve gone from being very concerned about a Hard Brexit, to an almost Bring It On attitude.

I don’t in any way see how being part of the commonwealth could diminish us as a nation.

I do see having a non invisible border as having a diminishing effect.

I think many unionists think the south is not welcoming for them, if a border poll is to be won, we need to make the British identity part of this irelands identity.

A hard Brexit looks increasingly likely, if it happens the North will be hard hit in every sense, we need to start the discussion about what a new Ireland looks like.

ancapailldorcha

Lemming wrote: »

Bear in mind, this is Jeffery Donaldson who made this suggestion. The same Jeffery Donaldson who concocted the "Love Ulster" parade. The commonwealth suggestion is - like the love ulster parade - an attempt at trolling. He's trying to stir the pot to find ammunition to play against the home gallery should he find their support for the DUP and/or the union wavering. We could rejoin. And then what? It wouldn't solve anything; we'd still be part of the EU so what exactly does he hope to achieve (save trolling for ammunition) ?

Ulster Unionism, since the days of Carson and Craig has been solely about self-interest and opposition to any sort of change or compromise whatsoever.

It's easy for people like Donaldson to suggest unicorns like Ireland rejoining the UK simply to appear to his support base like he's making perfectly reasonable suggestions and so he'll be able to shift the blame when, not if the time comes.

Valhallapt

Lemming wrote: »

Bear in mind, this is Jeffery Donaldson who made this suggestion. The same Jeffery Donaldson who concocted the "Love Ulster" parade. The commonwealth suggestion is - like the love ulster parade - an attempt at trolling. He's trying to stir the pot to find ammunition to play against the home gallery should he find their support for the DUP and/or the union wavering. We could rejoin. And then what? It wouldn't solve anything; we'd still be part of the EU so what exactly does he hope to achieve (save trolling for ammunition) ?

I totally agree he is trolling. But I say let take the high ground. Just can’t see how being a member of an irrelevant organization can hurt us .

Spanish Eyes

We should ask DUP to agree to a United Ireland as a foil to us joining the Commonwealth. See how his face might look then.

Inquitus

Take it with the pre-requisite 500kg of salt that the Daily Mail requires:

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1109566535725654016

Strazdas

Valhallapt wrote: »

What harm is there in joining the commonwealth?

I don’t see much value in the organization itself, but I think many unionists would welcome it, and if we’re to have a new Ireland their opinion is as valid as everyone else’s.

The arguments against seem to be coming chiefly from Irish republicans with a big chip on their shoulder. Countries like India suffered far more from British rule in the 20th century than Ireland did and yet are totally relaxed about membership of it.

Lemming

Valhallapt wrote: »

I totally agree he is trolling. But I say let take the high ground. Just can’t see how being a member of an irrelevant organization can hurt us .

I never gave comment either way on whether or not to join; only to note that the person doing the suggesting has ulterior motive and is a troll with previous form.

I'm ambivalent on the notion of the commonwealth. It doesn't really amount to much in this day and age anyway that isn't already replicated by other organisations to a far superior degree e.g. the EU vs. the UK's unilateral scraps from the dinner plate to commonwealth citizens (how's that working out for the windrush generation?). Had the suggestion been made three or four years ago, I'd not be disinclined to roll with it.

But now? No. And why?

Brexit has broken (or unlocked depending on semantic arguments) something fundamental in the British psyche, with many people believing it to have given tacit approval to their racist leanings and thus acceptable to assert or act on such leanings in public. Having a country join (never mind re-join) the Commonwealth at this juncture would only have such people and the media & politicians egging them on crowing to the heavens and making an intolerable situation even worse.

TL;DR? Don't feed the trolls.

Inquitus

Strazdas wrote: »

The arguments against seem to be coming chiefly from Irish republicans with a big chip on their shoulder. Countries like India suffered far more from British rule in the 20th century than Ireland did and yet are totally relaxed about membership of it.

If it's required as an olive branch to the Unionists as part of a United Ireland vote / deal then I would have no issues with it, its not very consequential and brings very little up or downside.

Headshot

Inquitus wrote: »

Take it with the pre-requisite 500kg of salt that the Daily Mail requires:

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1109566535725654016

How can they get her out though when Tories failed before?

Mr.Nice Guy

Inquitus wrote: »

If it's required as an olive branch to the Unionists as part of a United Ireland vote / deal then I would have no issues with it, its not very consequential and brings very little up or downside.

This is the way I feel about it. I've no issue with it if it's part of the reunification process following a border poll vote since unionists would want reassurances about their right to identify as British, and membership could be useful in that respect.

As regards May, this is from the political editor of The Sunday Times...

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1109566443132252160

Inquitus

Headshot wrote: »

How can they get her out though when Tories failed before?

The entire Cabinet could threaten to resign making her position utterly untenable. It would take something drastic like that, but I think the Brexiteer component are worried their Brexit could be snatched away from them and as such given the chaotic nature of these times, it could happen early next week. Many things can happen thought and I think the Tory Parliamentary Party at large would prefer David Lidington so I would tend to ignore the Mail's wishful Gove thinking.

prawnsambo

Headshot wrote: »

How can they get her out though when Tories failed before?

Force her to resign. That's not easy when you're dealing with someone like May, but they could make her position untenable. You can't be PM if your own party ignore you.