Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Joe_ Public

bilston wrote: »

So the BBC reckon that if May goes senior Tories will back her deal.

I don't understand that. You either think the deal is good or you don't. Changing PM isn't going to change the deal, so why should that impact on whether you vote for it or not. If this is the case it is another example of party before country. Shameful

An unnamed cabinet minister is quoted saying the same thing in the Sunday Times so there is some basis behind it. Will be interesting to see their justification for it over coming days but it sure does smack of personality politics right enough.

McGiver

Class campaigning by Led By Donkeys albeit a bit late. They should have done this in 2017.
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1109488798818279424

Anyway, better late than never and they need to call out publicly all these liars, charlatans, idiots, incompetents, oligarch puppets and disaster capitalists. Systematically and thoroughly.

tuxy

McGiver wrote: »

Davis talking his delusional nonsense in May 2016. Listening to this is actually more a psychoanalytic (or psychiatric if you wish ) exercise rather than a political one.

Who would you put on your negotiating team? Banier with a stack of paper work or Davis with an idiotic grin? From the very first round of meetings it was clear the UK had no plan, no plan at all.

McGiver

tuxy wrote: »

Who would you put on your negotiating team? Banier with a stack of paper work or Davis with an idiotic grin? From the very first round of meetings it was clear the UK had no plan, no plan at all.

I wonder who selected him. The brighter ones in th Tory party must have known he was an idiot. My hypothesis is that they put him there intentionally, as a useful idiot. To waste negotiating time basically.

prawnsambo

tuxy wrote: »

Who would you put on your negotiating team? Banier with a stack of paper work or Davis with an idiotic grin? From the very first round of meetings it was clear the UK had no plan, no plan at all.

Who's the chap in the right foreground? I see him a lot with Theresa May, usually in photographs from Brussels.

listermint

Incredible speech from Michael Heseltine

Worth a watch.

https://youtu.be/Y8oWrF2CXF8

Panrich

prawnsambo wrote: »

Who's the chap in the right foreground? I see him a lot with Theresa May, usually in photographs from Brussels.

Sir Tim Barrow. UK Permanent representative at the EU.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Barrow

The Rape of Lucretia

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Remainers have only now taken to marching because May has led the UK to its greatest international humiliation since.. well, in fact ever

The march was very deceitful though. Styling itself as a People's Vote and in the interest of democracy, when it was nothing of the sort. If it were, it would have had no EU flags, and the banners would have had democracy promoting slogans. Instead, it was a sea of gold star flags, and stay in the EU slogans. It was simply the Remainers refusing to accept the result. And not even honest about what they are doing.

Calina

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The march was very deceitful though. Styling itself as a People's Vote and in the interest of democracy, when it was nothing of the sort. If it were, it would have had no EU flags, and the banners would have had democracy promoting slogans. Instead, it was a sea of gold star flags, and stay in the EU slogans. It was simply the Remainers refusing to accept the result. And not even honest about what they are doing.

You need some self awareness. They are campaigning for a revote because they believe the UK has made an awful awful decision. The Brexit campaigners are fairly certain the vote would go against them which is why they are trying to discredit the idea.

Anyone who truly supported democracy would recognise the inadequacies of the 2016 referendum. Not just the accusations of dishonesty and breaking of electoral law but just how badly run and drafted a referendum it was. That you don't speaks volumes about how much you truly support democracy in the UK.

Donald Trump

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The march was very deceitful though. Styling itself as a People's Vote and in the interest of democracy, when it was nothing of the sort. If it were, it would have had no EU flags, and the banners would have had democracy promoting slogans. Instead, it was a sea of gold star flags, and stay in the EU slogans. It was simply the Remainers refusing to accept the result. And not even honest about what they are doing.

Simple question for you.
Do you think that there is any chance that any people who voted "Leave" might have changed their mind? Are people not allowed to change their mind or admit that they were wrong?





Was it you that had the stance a few pages back on this thread that the reason that the negotiations had gone so badly was the fault of the "remainers". Very strange

Donald Trump

Calina wrote: »

You need some self awareness. They are campaigning for a revote because they believe the UK has made an awful awful decision. The Brexit campaigners are fairly certain the vote would go against them which is why they are trying to discredit the idea.

Anyone who truly supported democracy would recognise the inadequacies of the 2016 referendum. Not just the accusations of dishonesty and breaking of electoral law but just how badly run and drafted a referendum it was. That you don't speaks volumes about how much you truly support democracy in the UK.

The referendum was not binding.


Hasn't it been since found that if it had been, it would have had to be overturned due to issues/irregularities?

listermint

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The march was very deceitful though. Styling itself as a People's Vote and in the interest of democracy, when it was nothing of the sort. If it were, it would have had no EU flags, and the banners would have had democracy promoting slogans. Instead, it was a sea of gold star flags, and stay in the EU slogans. It was simply the Remainers refusing to accept the result. And not even honest about what they are doing.

There are posters out there that quite literally just take a contrary view on any thread across the forum.

They seek out threads and whatever the majority theme is in it they rage against it.

Possibly some odd satisfaction in it or just to see what happens.

Joe_ Public

So members of cabinet visit no.10 and tell pm her race is run, it’s time to sling your hook. Pm, smelling coffee, sees game is up but says, hang on, how badly do you want rid of me? Agree to support my deal and I’ll announce resignation first thing next week.

Pure speculation on my part, but could have gone down something like that yesterday. So May might be able to achieve her legacy of delivering brexit after all, albeit there still will likely be kicker of a people’s vote amendment if they want to secure the numbers. I don’t think this is the worst development at all, but shows twists and turns, foreseen and unforeseen, we’ll have to go through before whole thing is done and dusted.

tuxy

McGiver wrote: »

I wonder who selected him. The brighter ones in th Tory party must have known he was an idiot. My hypothesis is that they put him there intentionally, as a useful idiot. To waste negotiating time basically.

They replaced him with Raab so there is no shortage of that in the party.It's also apparent Brexit secretaries had no input on what was happening.

ancapailldorcha

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The march was very deceitful though. Styling itself as a People's Vote and in the interest of democracy, when it was nothing of the sort. If it were, it would have had no EU flags, and the banners would have had democracy promoting slogans. Instead, it was a sea of gold star flags, and stay in the EU slogans. It was simply the Remainers refusing to accept the result. And not even honest about what they are doing.

It's not. It was completely transparent unlike the leave campaign and Brexiters who've been deceitful since the get-go. We've had £350 million for the NHS, Darren Grimes, possible Russian interference, Dominic Cummings, Jacob Rees-Mogg being £7 million up since the referendum and the ultimate lie of Brexit making the country better off which has since been abandoned.

coastwatch

listermint wrote: »

Incredible speech from Michael Heseltine

Worth a watch.

https://youtu.be/Y8oWrF2CXF8

Wow, that is a powerful speech.
It should be compulsory watching or reading, before a 2nd peoples vote.

Panrich

Joe_ Public wrote: »

So members of cabinet visit no.10 and tell pm her race is run, it’s time to sling your hook. Pm, smelling coffee, sees game is up but says, hang on, how badly do you want rid of me? Agree to support my deal and I’ll announce resignation first thing next week.

Pure speculation on my part, but could have gone down something like that yesterday. So May might be able to achieve her legacy of delivering brexit after all, albeit there still will likely be kicker of a people’s vote amendment if they want to secure the numbers. I don’t think this is the worst development at all, but shows twists and turns, foreseen and unforeseen, we’ll have to go through before whole thing is done and dusted.

I still can’t see her getting the deal through. DUP/Labour/TIG and several Tories still won’t back it.

The ERG are now very worried that no deal is slipping from their grasp and want to ensure that at least they leave and can chip away at the future relationship once they have left. They need May to step aside as her usefulness is over and it looks like she might cave to a softer Brexit at the last minute.

lawred2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's not. It was completely transparent unlike the leave campaign and Brexiters who've been deceitful since the get-go. We've had £350 million for the NHS, Darren Grimes, possible Russian interference, Dominic Cummings, Jacob Rees-Mogg being £7 million up since the referendum and the ultimate lie of Brexit making the country better off which has since been abandoned.

You forgot that Brexit does not mean leaving the single market or customs Union...

Dyr

coastwatch wrote: »

Wow, that is a powerful speech.
It should be compulsory watching or reading, before a 2nd peoples vote.

Heseltine, talks about peace in Europe and the care bears all cheer, ignoring that he was in a government which waged war on people it claimed as its own citizens.

That the Brits for you.

Patser

But I don't understand, Theresa May was elected PM in 2017, and as recently as January this year was backed by the majority of Tory MPs in a vote of confidence. Surely its anti-democratic to now ask her to leave? May means May, and no changing of minds can be allowed - no matter how poor the decision may be looking in hindsight.

Donald Trump

Patser wrote: »

But I don't understand, Theresa May was elected PM in 2017, and as recently as January this year was backed by the majority of Tory MPs in a vote of confidence. Surely its anti-democratic to now ask her to leave? May means May, and no changing of minds can be allowed - no matter how poor the decision may be looking in hindsight.

Of course it is undemocratic - they shouldn't be trying to deny the "Will of the Party" :-)

Joe_ Public

Panrich wrote: »

I still can’t see her getting the deal through. DUP/Labour/TIG and several Tories still won’t back it.

The ERG are now very worried that no deal is slipping from their grasp and want to ensure that at least they leave and can chip away at the future relationship once they have left. They need May to step aside as her usefulness is over and it looks like she might cave to a softer Brexit at the last minute.

Labour hierarchy won’t show any enthusiasm unless the likes of Watson or Starmer forced its hand, probably not likely. You could still appeal to Labour waverers though, likes of Lisa Nandy, whom May had alienated with her speech. Attraction for remainers is that it would likely bring a people’s vote closer and they might be happy to take their chances with that. Maybe still not likely, but pm deal back on the table at least.

Joe_ Public

“Farage, alive to bbc requirements for ‘balance’, had returned to preach yesterday to his handful of leaderless foot soldiers at a pub car park in Linby, Nottinghamshire: ‘You are the 17.4m’, he told a crowd of 150.”

- Tim Adams, observer

jochenstacker

Donald Trump wrote: »

The referendum was not binding.


Hasn't it been since found that if it had been, it would have had to be overturned due to issues/irregularities?

This is the bit where hardliners look left and right and say "did you hear something?" or plug their ears and go "lalala" very loudly.

There may be an opportunity to go for super soft Brexit, or even revoke Art 50 altogether.
This would have the effect to completely drive the hardliners nuts and make them even more extremist.
They would be nothing but a bunch of nuts shouting "leave means leave!", while onlookers would make twirling motions with their fingers beside their head.
Support for them has dwindled to the point where they can be safely sidelined.

MrFresh

Corbyn not attending the march for a vote is either the nail in the coffin for his leadership, the Labour party or the campaign for a second referendum, depending how his fellow Labour MP's respond. All three can't survive that act.

robindch

Joe_ Public wrote: »

“Farage, alive to bbc requirements for ‘balance’, had returned to preach yesterday to his handful of leaderless foot soldiers at a pub car park in Linby, Nottinghamshire: ‘You are the 17.4m’, he told a crowd of 150.” - Tim Adams, observer

Not the only pro-Brexit meeting which turned into a bit of a damp squib. Here's a report from Plymouth, including video goodness:

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/brexit-ferry-protest-plymouth-no-2677855

Plymouth Herald wrote:

While the A30 and M5 had 'go slow' protests during today's rush hour, Brexiteers in Plymouth staged a 'no show' at the Millbay Docks tonight - to express their frustration at the way Government and Parliament are handling the UK's withdrawal from the EU.

Spokesperson Karen Gadd, 62, had previously said protesters aimed to disrupt the 8.30pm arrival of the Brittany Ferry. However, a "disappointing" turn out, which swelled from a crowd of eight to a throng of around a dozen, stood and waved a placard and a Union Flag as vehicles disembarked from the ferry - occasionally shouting 'Leave Means Leave', when passions really boiled over.

One man and his dog also joined the group, but only so the protesters could pause their protest to stroke his pet - before he left.

Police were in attendance, but the seven officers - most of whom remained in their van - threatened to outnumber the protesters.

Lin Taylor-Greep said: "So many people so full of it online - Plymouth is a damp, limp lettuce. I was the first here and nearly went home. This is laughable. I'm very disappointed - I haven't been out in the evening for three years."

Things did get a little heated at one point - a string of mini EU flags was set alight, after a few a failed attempts. But spokesperson Mrs Gadd swiftly swept up the remains of the charred bunting. "We're very considerate. We're taking away our rubbish," said Mrs Gadd. "We're peaceful and we're not going to stop the traffic," said Mrs Gadd, before the protest began in earnest. "I'm glad there are no Remainers here. They're getting very nasty. Very Personal. They said we'd be down here on our mobility scooters," interjected fellow protester Ann Roberts, who later said a few disembarking ferry passengers yelled 'eff off' at her as they drove past.

"There's no need for abuse," she said.

However, the protesters also received encouragement, with a number of drivers beeping their horns - with one yelling "geddon, Nigel Farage" as he passed the protesters. Despite the support from ferry passengers, Mrs Gadd admitted she was disappointed with the turn out.

"People on Facebook were saying they're coming - they but haven't turned up. I feel sorry for people having to to grow up in this country. I'm advising my kids to leave the country - to go to Greece or somewhere."

judeboy101

MrFresh wrote: »

Corbyn not attending the march for a vote is either the nail in the coffin for his leadership, the Labour party or the campaign for a second referendum, depending how his fellow Labour MP's respond. All three can't survive that act.

In fairness, Theresa may, The queen of England and Arlene foster didn't attend,neither did Tommy Robinson.

devnull

I'm reading that article and I have to say that at first I thought it was a parody or some sarcasm, especially when they mentioned the dog, someone not being out in the evening for a while and going to Greece.

I'm still not sure if it's satire or not?

Anteayer

Wouldn't any new PM have to achieve a majority vote in the house to get the position? The Tories don't have one of those...

Lemming

Donald Trump wrote: »

The referendum was not binding.


Hasn't it been since found that if it had been, it would have had to be overturned due to issues/irregularities?

Elections and binding referendums are held to stricter oversight to avoid questionable activity; hence why you rarely encounter anything greater than "politician in election manifesto u-turn shocker" at any given election. The UK has had binding referendums in the past; the STV 2013 vote being most recent AFAIK. Had the 2016 vote been run as a legally binding referendum, the results would have been ruled null and void upon the courts ruling against the leave campaign.