Proposal to make colleges obliged to provide consent classes

BENDYBINN

Lux23 wrote: »

What I find funny is that people tend to make this to be about teaching men about consent, but really women need to learn about it too. Maybe some people think consent can be taken back the next day and they should be educated about how it all works?

So true

BENDYBINN

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Do you have any evidence that this is common?

I've certainly never had sex and then been confused about whether it was consensual the following day.

Yes, but if the man was to jump out of bed immediately afterwards and disappear into the night then that might be different.
It would feel like rape so it must be rape

KikiLaRue

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Yes, but if the man was to jump out of bed immediately afterwards and disappear into the night then that might be different.
It would feel like rape so it must be rape

Nope. No evidence that this is common at all.

eviltwin

I don't have any issues with this besides the fact that at 18 it's far too late. Why not teach them in primary?

We do talk about consent with young children, we teach them to speak up if someone tries to make them do something they don't want to do. I don't see why that can't include teaching them about not coercing others to do something they don't want to do. It's not just about sex, peer pressure has many negative results for young people.

BENDYBINN

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Nope. No evidence that this is common at all.

Have you evidence that it’s not common?

KikiLaRue

Marginvar wrote: »

I reckon a common form of false rape accusations comes from women cheating on their partner and trying to either cover thst up or to convince themselves they didn't actually cheat. These cases should be understood also to try and protect genuine victims of rape.

Feel free to educate yourself on the FBI and LAPD studies into false allegations which both suggest they are a very small minority i.e. usually when someone reports a rape it is because they have been raped: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

You are more likely to be raped yourself as a man than you are to be falsely accused of rape.

KikiLaRue

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Have you evidence that it’s not common?

Can you prove to me definitively that Santa isn't real?

Calhoun

Marginvar wrote: »

I reckon a common form of false rape accusations comes from women cheating on their partner and trying to either cover thst up or to convince themselves they didn't actually cheat. These cases should be understood also to try and protect genuine victims of rape.

Or that of certain feminist bloggers who all but name a guy they slept with in University as a rapist because they didn't feel like saying no to the guy at the time.

The chap in question was a lovely guy and obviously they didn't want to ruin his life :P :P :P but i suspect he was still ousted in his circle of friends as Ireland is a small place.

Also https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/nov/15/cps-and-police-routinely-failing-to-disclose-evidence nice article to illustrate how the system can be abused especially by the institutions of law.

BENDYBINN

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Can you prove to me definitively that Santa isn't real?

Your the one that’s on about evidence!

KikiLaRue

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Your the one that’s on about evidence!

Yes. You made a statement, so it's your job to back it up.

BENDYBINN

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Yes. You made a statement, so it's your job to back it up.

So did you

KikiLaRue

BENDYBINN wrote: »

So did you

Yes, and I provided a link to FBI and LAPD studies that back up my view. Have a read.

Your turn.

BENDYBINN

Men that ride and run leave themselves wide open to be accused of rape. A woman scorned ect...

KikiLaRue

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Men that ride and run leave themselves wide open to be accused of rape. A woman scorned ect...

Again, there is no evidence that women who feel upset that a man who sleeps with them and doesn't stay responds with a rape accusation. None at all.

xckjoo

Jesus. I though you left?

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I have not accused you of supporting rape, that's an utter misrepresentation of anything I've said. You're just careless with the language you use around it.

Ok. I accept that in hindsight. My bad. I'll redact the original part.

KikiLaRue wrote: »

And the first two are a lot closer to mine.

Seriously? Is this your first time using a dictionary? Words always have multiple entries as they've different meaning depending on context and the users intent

KikiLaRue wrote: »

So you repeatedly stating that I didn't understand or was somehow misinterpreting you were wrong. And that's okay. You chose a word that's very, very, very closely associated with rape and then tried to distance it from rape. It's a mistake I'm sure you won't make again in the future.

Well you equated the word "rapey" with someone being convicted in court of rape (paraphrasing: "women can't be rapey as they can't be convicted of rape in court") so your understanding was indeed off. When I clarified you doubled down and insisted the word is somehow both 1) not real 2) has a different meaning (conflicting characteristics if this isn't obvious).

I do chose my words with care. I'm completely comfortable that it's appropriate here. I also didn't try and distance it from rape. Here's my exact words again :

Except I used the word "rapey" (which you also pointed out in your reply) to signify that it was behaviour suggestive of someone that would commit rape given the opportunity (and ability).

What I said was, and what should be clear from the word itself, is that rapey is not the same as rapist or rape like you claimed originally. You can be rapey with being convicted of rape in a court of law (your original issue).

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I was familiar with the word and it's most common definition is closer to what i understood it to be than what you did. You should choose your words carefully in a conversation about rape. It's not my problem that you didn't. Your initial point does not stand.

Except you don't seem to understand why dictionaries have multiple definitions for words. I do chose my words carefully. I think I just overestimated the audience. I willing to accept that you probably felt embattled though and move on. You have to too though. Stop accusing me of trying to say things I didn't.

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I'm managing to have numerous conversations here with people who disagree with me that are on topic. You haven't said a word on topic in your last five posts or so, you've added nothing constructive to the conversation, you're just desperately trying to prove you're right...

Do you have anything to say on topic?

So f off back to replying to them and leave me alone like you said you were going to! I'm trying to engage in discussion but keep on having to defend myself against your nonsense attacks. This is now the 6th time I've had to clarify my meaning to you and yet each time you insist that I'm the one that's incorrect. They're my words and my intentions. You're literally in a row with someone over the intent behind their own words. Does that sound rational to you?

BENDYBINN

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Again, there is no evidence that women who feel upset that a man who sleeps with them and doesn't stay responds with a rape accusation. None at all.

So men have never been falsely accused of rape?

dvdman1

Theres too much "consideration" given to all sorts of so called issues....because this one is currently topical its given time. Stop wasting students time!!

KikiLaRue

BENDYBINN wrote: »

So men have never been falsely accused of rape?

I have provided a link to the LAPD and FBI studies into false rape allegations which both suggest that false allegations are very rare. Did you read it?

KikiLaRue

Marginvar wrote: »

Did you actually read that link? It is often impossible to prove whether a rape occured so how exactly can you be so certain what the figures are?

That link says it's been widely established that 2-10% of claimed rapes definitely didn't occur. So we can safely add on a significant percentage where false accusations couldn't be conclusively proven.

Another way of writing that statistic is 90-98% of rape allegations had merit. Think about that.

BENDYBINN

KikiLaRue wrote: »

I have provided a link to the LAPD and FBI studies into false rape allegations which both suggest that false allegations are very rare. Did you read it?

I read the papers ...lots of women doing time for false rape allegations
It’s very common

KikiLaRue

BENDYBINN wrote: »

I read the papers ...lots of women doing time for false rape allegations
It’s very common

Can you provide any links to the data behind your assertions?

How many of the women who reported rape in Ireland in a given year were proven to be false?

As above, in the biggest studies done, 90-98% of allegations were found to have merit.

Rape is a much, much, bigger problem than false accusations of rape.

KikiLaRue

Marginvar wrote: »

If by "having merit" you mean we don't know what happened due to insignificant evidence then you are correct.

Can you link to any studies from bodies as well respected as the FBI which corroborate your point of view?

KikiLaRue

Marginvar wrote: »

What point of view are you referring to?

"That link says it's been widely established that 2-10% of claimed rapes definitely didn't occur. So we can safely add on a significant percentage where false accusations couldn't be conclusively proven."

The FBI and LAPD came up with the figure between 2-10% with all the data that is available to them.

What is your source for adding on a significant percentage? How significant a percentage, and on what basis?

KikiLaRue

Marginvar wrote: »

Those are the ones where it's demonstrated through evidence that a rape didn't occur. In the majority of cases we don't know if a rape took place or if there was a false accusation as it's usually one person's word against another.

Well given that you're just a randomer with an opinion on the internet like myself and they are the FBI who have significant expertise in the area, I'm going to take their figures until someone can offer me better ones.

lainey_d_123

KikiLaRue wrote: »

There's a very interesting contradiction on how men are reacting to this conversation.

On the one hand, it's very much #notallmen, and men getting offended at the idea that as a group they are being treated as potential rapists.

On the other hand, telling women not to get drunk or wear revealing clothes suggests that we actually should be treating men as a group as potential rapists.

So which is it lads?

You're 100% right and it's bizarre that they don't seem to be able to see the total hypocrisy.

"WAHAWAHWAH WE'RE NOT ALL RAPISTS AND WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO TAKE STUPID CLASSES"

Next breath

"But if women go out alone and get drunk, they're putting themselves at risk because there are so many monsters out there!!!"


.......ok.

xckjoo

@kikilarua
Please stop contacting me here and via pm. If I knew how to report you for harassment on mobile I would but I'll have forgotten about it by the time I'm on a computer again

KikiLaRue

Marginvar wrote: »

Hopefully you don't apply the same logic to Doctors, they will tell you that saturated fat is bad for you however studies have shown that's false. Don't blindly believe what a figure of authority tells you.

So, instead of the FBI and LAPD... I should believe... you?

cannotlogin

Does anyone actually think consent classes will prevent rapes?

Maybe I'm being over simplistic but I'm fair certain most people know what rape is, understand what consent is and know when to walk away from a situation when there is a chance of consent not being clear i.e. person is drunk etc.

I don't think the small minority of people who really need to change their behaviour, will learn anything from a consent class. There are very few accidental rapists - they know what they are doing.

KikiLaRue

Marginvar wrote: »

There are plenty of monsters in society, be it an opporttunist thief or rapist or the likes of Roxanne Pallette. One should be mindful that such dangers exist.

Yes. But we should not equate the danger of rape with the danger of a false allegation.

The likelihood of one is much higher than the other.

KikiLaRue

cannotlogin wrote: »

Does anyone actually think consent classes will prevent rapes?

Maybe I'm being over simplistic but I'm fair certain most people know what rape is, understand what consent is and know when to walk away from a situation when there is a chance of consent not being clear i.e. person is drunk etc.

I don't think the small minority if people who really need to change their behaviour, will learn anything from a consent class. There are very few accidental rapists - they know what they are doing.

Many rape cases hinge on the alleged rapist saying "I thought she consented".

cannotlogin

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Many rape cases hinge on the alleged rapist saying "I thought she consented".

Yes and I'm fairly certain this is the first line of defense for every rapist. It has to be if they have any chance of not being convicted. Plead it was consentual, thereby creating an element of doubt.

My point is I don't think a lack of understanding of the meaning of consent, results in many accidental rapists. I think most rapists are well aware of what rape is.

pleas advice

Calhoun wrote: »

Or that of certain feminist bloggers who all but name a guy they slept with in University as a rapist because they didn't feel like saying no to the guy at the time.

.

She could have handled it better if she had attended a few consent classes

cannotlogin

cannotlogin wrote: »

Does anyone actually think consent classes will prevent rapes?

Maybe I'm being over simplistic but I'm fair certain most people know what rape is, understand what consent is and know when to walk away from a situation when there is a chance of consent not being clear i.e. person is drunk etc.

I don't think the small minority if people who really need to change their behaviour, will learn anything from a consent class. There are very few accidental rapists - they know what they are doing.

I don't think Ted Bundy or Larry murphy and their sort would've changed if they had consent classes now

TheChizler

Jesus, can not for once have a grown up conversation on taking about consent that doesn't resort back to "they need to stop calling all men rapists" or "the need to teach women not to get drunk and wear clothes that makes them more likely to get raped" or complaining about feminists or idiotic blogs. What's the need to bring these irrelevant things into it?

The only people mentioning these extreme positions or people are the people giving out about these extreme positions or people, this is not what is being proposed, it basically only exists in your heads.

Consent is a very simple thing that is commonly misunderstood by regular people like you and me, taking about it won't stop the bogey-man rapists or people intent on going out of their way to cause harm, but it might cause the regular person to consider their actions and question whether what they're doing is ok. It's not black or white, 0 or 100%. It won't fix the problem entirely but might help, at very little cost.

RollieFingers

Not against the idea, but surely it should be done in secondary school rather than third level? If you're a creep by the time you're in college there's probably not a lot that can be done to change that. Also if I was in college and they made the class mandatory I wouldn't go, so maybe it should be optional attendance.

givyjoe

KikiLaRue wrote: »

Do you have any evidence that this is common?

I've certainly never had sex and then been confused about whether it was consensual the following day.

Have a Google of rosemary McCabe. She literally penned an article doing exactly this. Except it wasn't the next day, it was years later.

TheChizler

givyjoe wrote: »

Have a Google of rosemary McCabe. She literally penned an article doing exactly this. Except it wasn't the next day, it was years later.

I don't think we should base anything we do in society on what RMC says, pro or against, extremes don't help anyone.

givyjoe

TheChizler wrote: »

I don't think we should base anything we do in society on what RMC says, pro or against, extremes don't help anyone.

I'm not, the poster is pretending that this doesn't happen, but do you actually think it's a one off?

TheChizler

givyjoe wrote: »

I'm not, the poster is pretending that this doesn't happen, but do you actually think it's a one off?

I don't think these extreme examples are representative of the people at the core of the proposals. Unfortunately they tend to be just as loud or louder.

givyjoe

TheChizler wrote: »

I don't think these extreme examples are representative of the people at the core of the proposals. Unfortunately they tend to be just as loud or louder.

You mean people who don't know how to correctly interpret what consent means? I'd have thought RMC and dozens of people supporting her bonkers assertions at the time would very much be included in the target of consent classes. Not sure how you're making out that type of thought is 'extreme'

TheChizler

givyjoe wrote: »

You mean people who don't know how to correctly interpret what consent means? I'd have thought RMC and dozens of people supporting her bonkers assertions at the time would very much be included in the target of consent classes. Not sure how you're making out that type of thought is 'extreme'

I don't think it represents the people who'd be supportive of this, maybe irrelevant would be a better word.

I think someone in a similar situation as in that story could have benefited from sort of consent classes actually, as it might have given them to tools to deal with the situation then and there rather than letting it fester and come out in public in a very questionable way.

meeeeh

TheChizler wrote: »

Consent is a very simple thing that is commonly misunderstood by regular people like you and me, taking about it won't stop the bogey-man rapists or people intent on going out of their way to cause harm, but it might cause the regular person to consider their actions and question whether what they're doing is ok. It's not black or white, 0 or 100%. It won't fix the problem entirely but might help, at very little cost.

Yeah it might stop someone who is at the core good person not to do something stupid when they are drunk.

Grayson

pleas advice wrote: »

She could have handled it better if she had attended a few consent classes

That's true to an extent. Sometimes people don't know how to say no so they end up being pressured into something they don't want to do.

A consent class shouldn't just involve how you go about gaining consent. It should also be about how to communicate consent.