All Ireland Senior Hurling (Liam Mccarthy Cup) 2019

cson

blackcard wrote: »

I think that if you asked Davy Fitz, he would say that your comment about Eoin Murphy being unsporting for taking a quick puckout after the penalty goal was the height of stupidity. A team can pick any of 15 players to take a penalty. They can put any of the other 14 players in goal for a short period whilst the goalkeeper makes his way back. Kilkenny were a goal down with a few minutes to go ,the referee had blown the whistle to recommence and you think he should have wasted 30 seconds waiting for the goalkeeper to get back. Would the same apply if it was a midfielder or full back?If Eoin Murphy had to save the penalty, should he still have waited for the goalkeeper to get back? Back in the day, I remember Davy running back after scoring a penalty, he certainly didn't expect anyone to wait for him. He would be the first to call your comment stupid

On that topic was I the only one that saw Murphy flake the Wexford full forward in the passage of play around the penalty?

Mahony0509

“The GAA Hurling All-Ireland Senior Championship Quarter-Finals will be played as a double-header in Croke Park on Sunday, July 14.

Kilkenny will play either Cork or Westmeath at 2pm with Tipperary playing Dublin or Laois at 4pm.”

https://twitter.com/officialgaa/status/1146065573672964098?s=21

RMAOK

With all due respect to laois and westmeath, neither of them are going to win this weekend, so it'll be Kilkenny vs Cork and Dublin vs tipp.

I'd have thought the cork Kilkenny match would have been the main match at 4, not the tipp Dublin one.

Mahony0509

Absolute disaster for Cork honestly. Footballers playing vs Dublin the night before. Ridiculous decision by the GAA.

kala85

I thought that Cork vs KK would be on at 4pm as it would be the more attractive fixture.

dirkmeister

Neil Young and Bob Dylan on in Kilkenny on Sunday.

F*cking fair pissed off with that announcement.

Bonniedog

It is an odd call. I would have thought that they would have been separate venues - say Portlaoise for Cats/Cork and Tullamore for Dublin/Tipp.

Would have created a good atmosphere with 20,000 at least for the first one, and probably 15/16,000 for Dubs v Tipp.

Not only will there not be 35,000 in CP due to extra travel for three of the counties, but the entire crowd will not be there for the duration of both which leads to a dismal atmosphere.

kala85

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is an odd call. I would have thought that they would have been separate venues - say Portlaoise for Cats/Cork and Tullamore for Dublin/Tipp.

Would have created a good atmosphere with 20,000 at least for the first one, and probably 15/16,000 for Dubs v Tipp.

Not only will there not be 35,000 in CP due to extra travel for three of the counties, but the entire crowd will not be there for the duration of both which leads to a dismal atmosphere.

A smaller venue for both games would have been great.

An idea on the cost of the tickets?

Bonniedog

kala85 wrote: »

A smaller venue for both games would have been great.

An idea on the cost of the tickets?

€35 for stand and €20 for terrace I would imagine. Of course they might easily bump that up to €40 and €25 on basis of two games.

Obviously, CP is better for Dublin than Thurles but would have preferred somewhere different to be honest.

ArnoldJRimmer

Is it too late to suggest a triple header in Croker on the Saturday? Given that its likely that both the Dubs and Cork will be playing in both codes. Would guarantee a decent crowd

Bonniedog

ArnoldJRimmer wrote: »

Is it too late to suggest a triple header in Croker on the Saturday? Given that its likely that both the Dubs and Cork will be playing in both codes. Would guarantee a decent crowd

Can't see that happening, and as above, would be totally against any of the hurling games being put on before the football. Most Dublin football supporters would not be there for the hurling and most cork hurling supporters would not hang around for the football!

Kilkenny lads be just totally nonplussed

puzl

We can't have the game in Thurles or PuC because it would be totally unfair to allow Tipp or Cork to have home advantage so clearly Croker is the only other option.

And those who were hoping for a double header for the Cork footballers and hurlers need a reality check. You simply can't support both codes in the modern game as evidenced by both Cadogan and Walsh declaring for the hurlers.

terryrogers

Motivator wrote: »

His performance in that game is a complete myth. Shefflin bottled a goal scoring free with a couple of minutes to go. If he had the balls to go for it then Kilkenny would have won the game and there never would have been a replay.

Shefflin was a great fella when things were going well and Kilkenny were dominating games and winning All Ireland’s for fun. Two things that stand out for me about Shefflin are his sending off against Cork in 2013 when the chips were down and their season was on the line and the easy option he took against Galway in 2012. Good player but the media obsession with him made him out to be better than he was. If you keep telling people someone is great, they’ll eventually just agree. He stole a few All Stars and Hurler of the year awards too.

Give me Canning, Eoin Kelly and Lar Corbett over him any day of the week. Marquee players who were exciting to watch every day of the week. Shefflin was never exciting to watch.

This is hilarious! Nothing describes Irishness more than our obstinate begrudgery of success, and above is a prime example.

The only 2 things you could pick out about Shefflin were a red card due to a 'reffing error' and taking a point on a penalty (which turned out to be a very prudent decision). And then you go on to mention Corbett... I was there the day himself and Pa Bourke were having their own freakshow with Tommy Walsh and Jackie Tyrell in the corner of Croke park while there was an AI semi final going on, and couldn't believe what I was seeing! Are you seriously considering this guy in the same bracket as Shefflin??

Marquee is an interesting word choice here, there have been plenty of marquee players in living memory but none of them hold legendary status like Shefflin. He was more than a marquee player... The complete player more like.

JJs Left Hand

Kilkenny Cork game at 2 because Kerry v winners of Galway/Mayo is at 4 in the Super 8s

Realt Dearg Sec

dirkmeister wrote: »

Neil Young and Bob Dylan on in Kilkenny on Sunday.

F*cking fair pissed off with that announcement.

You were pissed off back in October that they announced a massive gig in a provincial stadium?

citykat

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

You were pissed off back in October that they announced a massive gig in a provincial stadium?

I’d count it as a blessing in disguise. Dylan couldn’t sing the last time he played. Young would put you to sleep with those 20 min guitar solos.

Powerhouse

Motivator wrote: »

His performance in that game is a complete myth. Shefflin bottled a goal scoring free with a couple of minutes to go. If he had the balls to go for it then Kilkenny would have won the game and there never would have been a replay.

Shefflin was a great fella when things were going well and Kilkenny were dominating games and winning All Ireland’s for fun. Two things that stand out for me about Shefflin are his sending off against Cork in 2013 when the chips were down and their season was on the line and the easy option he took against Galway in 2012.

Good player but the media obsession with him made him out to be better than he was. If you keep telling people someone is great, they’ll eventually just agree. He stole a few All Stars and Hurler of the year awards too.

Give me Canning, Eoin Kelly and Lar Corbett over him any day of the week. Marquee players who were exciting to watch every day of the week. Shefflin was never exciting to watch.

On the Galway one, yes I remember vividly thinking at the time that if he had gone for it we'd have heard "that's what a great player does" etc. but no commentary on taking the conservative option at that time. That's the emptiness of some of the praise theses guys get that they are not held to account on the other side of the argument at all.

Shefflin was consistent in a successful team but I never saw him drag Kilkenny out of it. His anonymity in the 2003/04 games against Cork when he did not have a physical advantage over their defenders was telling too.

Powerhouse

terryrogers wrote: »

This is hilarious! Nothing describes Irishness more than our obstinate begrudgery of success, and above is a prime example.

And nothing betrays a non-argument (of which yours is a prime example) like attributing negative motive to the person making a point at the earliest possible chance (as above), dealing only with the tangential aspects of their comments (mention of other players) by singling put one incident (Corbett), and completely failing to deal with the question of Shefflin himself.

For greater impact it, of course, needs the "hilarious" (yes, go straight to the extreme end of 'funny' because 'funny' just won't do) with the exclamation mark. For full numbty effect all you need are 'thanks' from predictable sources. It doesn't get any more transparent really.

corner back 2

Powerhouse wrote: »

On the Galway one, yes I remember vividly thinking at the time that if he had gone for it we'd have heard "that's what a great player does" etc. but no commentary on taking the conservative option at that time. That's the emptiness of some of the praise theses guys get that they are not held to account on the other side of the argument at all.

Shefflin was consistent in a successful team but I never saw him drag Kilkenny out of it. His anonymity in the 2003/04 games against Cork when he did not have a physical advantage over their defenders was telling too.

Count his medals and All Stars and all the other awards and when you're finished count them again because they will never change no matter what you say or think. Try enjoying the current success of teams like Limerick and Wexford and bury your bitterness about things in the past. I was sure this thread is about this years All Ireland Hurling championship.

Powerhouse

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is an odd call. I would have thought that they would have been separate venues - say Portlaoise for Cats/Cork and Tullamore for Dublin/Tipp.

Would have created a good atmosphere with 20,000 at least for the first one, and probably 15/16,000 for Dubs v Tipp.

Not only will there not be 35,000 in CP due to extra travel for three of the counties, but the entire crowd will not be there for the duration of both which leads to a dismal atmosphere.

Just checked there now and the last time Cork and Kilkenny met in the QF in 2013 there was a double-header with Galway/Clare in Thurles. Attendance was 33,000. Hard to see that being beaten with the match in Dublin and supporters having maybe had the cost of attending a good few matches already with the round-robin in the province. It's funny though in the GAA there is such fascination with the attendance. You'd never hear rugby or soccer supporters having such a conversation ahead of a game. Reminds me of Colm O'Rourke on television when it was announced that Dublin were knocked out of the League a couple of months ago, his first comment was "this will cost the GAA a lot of money" (because presumably of a likely lower attendance). And it wasn't said even in a tongue in cheek way, it was his first thought.

Powerhouse

corner back 2 wrote: »

Count his medals and All Stars and all the other awards and when you're finished count them again because they will never change no matter what you say or think.

Again a non-argument. There is no dispute about the amount of medals etc. the guy has. That's an absolute. It's not a matter of opinion.

In the context of a player's ability medals won tells nothing other than you were in the right place at the right time. A measure of medals won makes James Ryall a better wing-back than Brian Whelahan. So that's the value of that measure.

The original poster never claimed he won less than people thought. When he does maybe your 'argument' will be admissible, just to make sure they are all counted enough times.

Martin567

Powerhouse wrote: »

Again a non-argument. There is no dispute about the amount of medals etc. the guy has. That's an absolute. It's not a matter of opinion.

In the context of a player's ability medals won tells nothing other than you were in the right place at the right time. A measure of medals won makes James Ryall a better wing-back than Brian Whelahan. So that's the value of that measure.

The original poster never claimed he won less than people thought. When he does maybe your 'argument' will be admissible, just to make sure they are all counted enough times.

Why don't you try critically evaluating Motivator's original post instead of arguing against those who rightly ridiculed it?

Nobody has suggested James Ryall was a better player than Brian Whelehan. Henry Shefflin was the main on-field leader in quite possibly the greatest hurling team of all time. He managed to stand out in a team with several all time greats. That's the best measure of the man.

Mentioning Lar Corbett in the same context as Henry is a joke. Lar, good player though he was, does not belong in any conversation about greatest ever players. Eoin Kelly and Joe Canning certainly do though.

Gentleman Off The Pitch

Powerhouse wrote: »

And nothing betrays a non-argument (of which yours is a prime example) like attributing negative motive to the person making a point at the earliest possible chance (as above), dealing only with the tangential aspects of their comments (mention of other players) by singling put one incident (Corbett), and completely failing to deal with the question of Shefflin himself.

For greater impact it, of course, needs the "hilarious" (yes, go straight to the extreme end of 'funny' because 'funny' just won't do) with the exclamation mark. For full numbty effect all you need are 'thanks' from predictable sources. It doesn't get any more transparent really.

And yet, you, while accusing him of dealing only "with the tangential aspects of their comments (mention of other players) by singling put one incident (Corbett)", you do the same and ignore that he also mentioned the ridiculousness of using a decision to tap the ball over the bar instead of going for a goal (which could easily be argued to have been the correct decision) and a rescinded red card as evidence of Shefflin's failings as a player.

And you can go ahead and feel free to take each post in isolation, but don't expect others to do the same and not allow a posters previous posting history colour their assessment of their latest derogatory post about something Kilkenny related.

In the original statement about Shefflin, the poster stated "Shefflin was a great fella when things were going well and Kilkenny were dominating games and winning All Ireland’s for fun." implying that the going was tough Shefflin was found wanting, yet he was called out about the fact that the two examples he used to reinforce this argument were preposterous, something you have a problem with it seems

Gentleman Off The Pitch

Powerhouse wrote: »

On the Galway one, yes I remember vividly thinking at the time that if he had gone for it we'd have heard "that's what a great player does" etc. but no commentary on taking the conservative option at that time. That's the emptiness of some of the praise theses guys get that they are not held to account on the other side of the argument at all.

Shefflin was consistent in a successful team but I never saw him drag Kilkenny out of it. His anonymity in the 2003/04 games against Cork when he did not have a physical advantage over their defenders was telling too.

What was these couple of games when Shefflin was 23/24 telling of exactly, can you elaborate? Is the implication that he never performed well against physical defenders over his career?

lawred2

I think I'm going to have to unfollow this thread

Gentleman Off The Pitch

lawred2 wrote: »

I think I'm going to have to unfollow this thread

What a cliffhanger! Please let us know as soon as you have decided

Bonniedog

Powerhouse wrote: »

It's funny though in the GAA there is such fascination with the attendance. .

I was referring to likely attendance from a practical point of view.

You are correct regarding the likely turnout, so then what is point of having it in Croke Park?

I've seen Dublin hurlers there on numerous occasions and only ones where it didn't feel like being in a large air craft hangar were 2011 league final, 2011 AI semi final v Tipp, 2013 Leinster final and the AI semi final. It definitely detracts from the occasion.

conf101

In all fairness, can ye take the Shefflin nonsense elsewhere? This is supposed to be a thread about this year's All Ireland Championship. The vast majority here don't want to read petty bickering over how good Henry Shefflin was

Powerhouse

Martin567 wrote: »

Why don't you try critically evaluating Motivator's original post instead of arguing against those who rightly ridiculed it?

Because I have no interest in critically evaluating it. The group-think smugness of some replies needed to be called. I did that. Simple as. You need to address your other stuff to the original poster (who actually said it) by the way.

Powerhouse

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

And you can go ahead and feel free to take each post in isolation

You know something...…………..that's exactly what I can do. I can reply whenever and to whoever I like. You'll have to cope with that.

If you want to debate the ins and outs of what the original poster said deal with the original poster.

Powerhouse

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

What was these couple of games when Shefflin was 23/24 telling of exactly, can you elaborate?

Have to laugh at the way the age is weaselled in there as an unacknowledged excuse. Shefflin got HOTY in 2002 so he was fully formed. Any inferences drawn from those games stick even if it doesn't suit you.

Powerhouse

Bonniedog wrote: »

I was referring to likely attendance from a practical point of view.

You are correct regarding the likely turnout, so then what is point of having it in Croke Park?

I was referring to likely attendance from a practical point of view.

I totally get that. My comment was more a general observation than a criticism of your point.

You are correct regarding the likely turnout, so then what is point of having it in Croke Park?

Not sure really. I suppose the attendance for the individual quarter-final between Clare and Wexford (who are apparently great attenders) was abysmal, so they might feel that a double-header maximises the crowd. The venue which would best do this would be Thurles but there would be complaints if Dublin had to go there.

There's also the likelihood that the attendance at the football Super 8 matches in Croke Park will be poor so they are probably trying to create some kind of impetus so that the stadium looks less of a white elephant. There's also the reality that whatever the attractions geographically of putting Cork and Kilkenny in Portlaoise that for sponsors, corporate concerns, and supporters comfort there are arguments against it.

But ultimately I don't know why they chose Croke Park.

Gentleman Off The Pitch

Powerhouse wrote: »

Have to laugh at the way the age is weaselled in there as an unacknowledged excuse. Shefflin got HOTY in 2002 so he was fully formed. Any inferences drawn from those games stick even if it doesn't suit you.

Age was mentioned to highlight he was relatively early in his career and had 10 years or some more inter county senior hurling left, nothing to do with physical development. He was a big man at 19 FFS. I thought it interesting that you were using a couple of games within in a short period of a long career to imply Henry couldn't cope with physical defenders (like did he never come up against physical defenders in the meantime) and asked you to elaborate which you haven't instead replying with a bit of bluster. I'm out now, thread derailed enough

People will still be discussing Shefflin in 100 years, his record alone ensures that. Strikes me as petty to pick and choose a handful of games over the course of 15 or so years to judge him on.

bruschi

Has Shefflin been called up to the Kilkenny team or something? Or is he taking over from Cody for the next game?

Rasputin11

Shefflin was pretty critical of Morrissey being left on O Connor on Sunday and also of the instructions from management in the dying minutes. Has he his eyes on the big job?

corner back 2

Powerhouse wrote: »

Again a non-argument. There is no dispute about the amount of medals etc. the guy has. That's an absolute. It's not a matter of opinion.

In the context of a player's ability medals won tells nothing other than you were in the right place at the right time. A measure of medals won makes James Ryall a better wing-back than Brian Whelahan. So that's the value of that measure.

The original poster never claimed he won less than people thought. When he does maybe your 'argument' will be admissible, just to make sure they are all counted enough times.

Sorry I wasn't putting forward an argument I was just giving you some advice. Hurling is a game full of skill and athleticism and wondrous feats. I was just advising you to park the past and enjoy the present for what it is.

Powerhouse

Deleted User wrote: »

People will still be discussing Shefflin in 100 years, his record alone ensures that. Strikes me as petty to pick and choose a handful of games over the course of 15 or so years to judge him on.

I doubt anyone's reputation will be significant in 100 years to be fair never mind being discussed. But big reputations invite big scrutiny. That's the way of life.

terryrogers

Powerhouse wrote: »

And nothing betrays a non-argument (of which yours is a prime example) like attributing negative motive to the person making a point at the earliest possible chance (as above), dealing only with the tangential aspects of their comments (mention of other players) by singling put one incident (Corbett), and completely failing to deal with the question of Shefflin himself.

For greater impact it, of course, needs the "hilarious" (yes, go straight to the extreme end of 'funny' because 'funny' just won't do) with the exclamation mark. For full numbty effect all you need are 'thanks' from predictable sources. It doesn't get any more transparent really.

Pedantic drivel... if trying to sound like a clever prose analyst try not to use indirect name calling within your post, it makes one sound less intelligent and weakens the argument. If you read back on my post you'll see that I did deal with questions on Shefflin... Bitterness can be blinding.

The fact that the dissection of the mistakes of TJ Reid and Shefflin are dominating the last few pages here just compounds my earlier point on typical Irish begrudgery (not surprised that it struck a chord with your good self). But why aren't we talking about Rory O'Connor's coming of age on Sunday instead, or Gillane's magic assist for Casey's goal?

We could argue 'til the cows come home but Shefflin won't be measured on the opinions of disdainful or respectful internet forum users, he's already in the annals of hurling history as perhaps the greatest. Shall we move on...

Powerhouse

corner back 2 wrote: »

I was just advising you to park the past and enjoy the present for what it is.

No you weren't. You told me to "count his medals". A very different message.

Powerhouse

terryrogers wrote: »

We could argue 'til the cows come home but Shefflin won't be measured on the opinions of disdainful or respectful internet forum users,

Of course he will. All players are measured on an aggregration of opinion. If opinions didn't matter it wouldn't be so important for some people to try to close them down.

Martin567

Powerhouse wrote: »

terryrogers wrote: »

We could argue 'til the cows come home but Shefflin won't be measured on the opinions of disdainful or respectful internet forum users,

Of course he will. All players are measured on an aggregration of opinion. If opinions didn't matter it wouldn't be so important for some people to try to close them down.

That Christy Ring fella, he was completely overrated. As for Mick Mackey, he could hardly hurl at all!

Just to be included in the 'aggregation of opinion' of those particular players!

Slieve Gullion

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

What a cliffhanger! Please let us know as soon as you have decided

Dear me but you are a rather dull fellow.

Powerhouse

Powerhouse wrote: »

I doubt anyone's reputation will be significant in 100 years to be fair never mind being discussed. But big reputations invite big scrutiny. That's the way of life.

Mick Mackey first lined out for Limerick in 1933. Do you think he'll be forgotten in the next 14 years or something? There's pubs in Limerick that have his memorabilia on the walls, virtually every serious hurling fan would have some idea of who he is.

Likewise, Christy Ring first played for Cork in 1939, do you think he'll be forgotten in 20 years?

I'm not saying Shefflin occupies the same space as either, (or the Rackards etc), I don't think you can compare across eras, but his record will put him in the same conversations.

Bonniedog

Bookies have priced up Cork/Kilkenny and Dublin/Tipp without waiting for the two games at the weekend to be decided.

Outcome probably pretty certain but nonetheless, a bit previous!

Tipp 2/7 and Cork 4/6.

Realt Dearg Sec

Bonniedog wrote: »

Bookies have priced up Cork/Kilkenny and Dublin/Tipp without waiting for the two games at the weekend to be decided.

Outcome probably pretty certain but nonetheless, a bit previous!

Tipp 2/7 and Cork 4/6.

There's money to be made. In a sense, anyone who takes the Cork bet is relying on the result of two matches (even if the first is fairly predictable), so it makes more sense for the bookies to do it.

Bonniedog

Assuming that Dublin and Cork both win, only thing that might change the odds is probably injuries to key players on either team.

C__MC

Shefflins performance in the 2012 drawn final was fairly significant I would say. He nailed a really tricky free before half time when kk were in all sorts of trouble to a rampant galway. It left the deficit to 4 at half time. In the second half he did rise kk and the players around him. It was more his leadership skills that stood out. He scored a majestic point from play and hit some ridiculous long range frees that me or anyone on this forum could only dream of on all Ireland final day. He assisted colin fennelly with a goal chance as well. If anything though his own shooting let him down, he missed three bad shots from play to seal it for kk. To be fair kk were struggling that day and his leadership and work rate at 32 saved kilkenny that day. To say the performance was over hyped would be wide of the mark.

C__MC

Powerhouse wrote: »

On the Galway one, yes I remember vividly thinking at the time that if he had gone for it we'd have heard "that's what a great player does" etc. but no commentary on taking the conservative option at that time. That's the emptiness of some of the praise theses guys get that they are not held to account on the other side of the argument at all.

Shefflin was consistent in a successful team but I never saw him drag Kilkenny out of it. His anonymity in the 2003/04 games against Cork when he did not have a physical advantage over their defenders was telling too.

He stil set up the winner for Martin comeford in 2003, physical advantage or not

C__MC

C__MC wrote: »

Shefflins performance in the 2012 drawn final was fairly significant I would say. He nailed a really tricky free before half time when kk were in all sorts of trouble to a rampant galway. It left the deficit to 4 at half time. In the second half he did rise kk and the players around him. It was more his leadership skills that stood out. He scored a majestic point from play and hit some ridiculous long range frees that me or anyone on this forum could only dream of on all Ireland final day. He assisted colin fennelly with a goal chance as well. If anything though his own shooting let him down, he missed three bad shots from play to seal it for kk. To be fair kk were struggling that day and his leadership and work rate at 32 saved kilkenny that day. To say the performance was over hyped would be wide of the mark.

True, also to watch it back while knowing the result changes your impression of any game, imo. He was operating under tremendous pressure, something that gets lost years after the game.