All Ireland Senior Hurling (Liam Mccarthy Cup) 2019

Powerhouse

Martin567 wrote: »

Yet it was factually incorrect as I pointed out but you didn't bother to read that far.


I might as well say the match on Sunday is between one team which hasn't won an All Ireland for 14 years and has only been in one final since 2006 up against a team which has played in three of the last five finals (winning two).


Just like your point, little relevance to Sunday but it goes to show what you can do with selective use of facts. Unlike yours, my facts are 100% correct too.

Clare???? Kilkenny haven't hurled Clare in championship since 2006. No player from either county that is playing now was around then. I said that Kilkenny had not played in an AI semi final since 2016 and that they had lost all their last games to top 9 opposition bar Dublin. Clearly I was referring to the post-2016 era when the Kilkenny team is relatively current. I'm trying to deal with relevant information while for you it's a Mickey contest - that's the difference.

As for Kilkenny winning all around them playing a county that has won nothing for years...………………..be careful about drawing comforts from that. As you say it is irrelevant. Kilkenny played Limerick last year - Limerick hadn't won an All Ireland for 45 years yet beat Kilkenny. Kilkenny played Wexford in the Leinster Final - Wexford haven't won an All Ireland for 23 years yet beat Kilkenny. Kilkenny played Waterford in 2017 - Waterford hadn't won an All Ireland for 54 years yet beat Kilkenny. Kilkenny have been breaking new ground losing to teams they hadn't got around to losing to for years. Don't doubt their capacity to bridge the staggering gap of six years back to their last defeat (and meeting) with Cork.

Regarding the latter Cork's is reasonably decent (not bulletproof by any means) while Kilkenny's is dire. That this make you really angry is a bonus, but it certainly is the truth.

Martin567

I would ask any independent person to look back at the last few posts and see which of us comes across as angry. I don't think it's me.

As I said, Cork are deservedly favourites for Sunday and if they win, good luck to them. But I would expect it to be close.

You said Kilkenny had lost their last game against every other top 9 team except Dublin. I would assume that includes Clare. You didn't specify either a competition or a time period. You should learn to speak with greater clarity if you don't want your verbal diarrhoea to be be criticised in future.

sportsmaddad

First off, hats off to the Laois hurlers for taking the scalp of one of the so called top tier teams on Sunday. They've deservedly received a lot of praise from all quarters this week. I'm sure they'll have the other 30 counties behind them as they take on Tipperary on Sunday.

It all must feel a bit strange for them, given that so much of the conventional wisdom last week was very different. Even their own Cheddar Plunkett, and many others, openly questioned the value of pitting the Joe McDonagh winners against a "top tier" team.

The conventional wisdom this week is full of admiration for their achievement. Lots of comments along the lines of a "great day for hurling". Of course Cheddar was in full celebratory mood on the GAA Hour the other day and why wouldn't he be? But I note that he pointed out, on more than one occasion, that without further Laois progress, this would remain pretty minor in the overall scheme of things.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that this was a bad day for hurling, UNLESS Laois do actually build on it and firmly establish themselves as a "top tier" team over the next 5 years or so. Yes, no matter what, it was a great day for Laois and that particular bunch of players, but not for anyone else, if Laois just yo yo up and down like 3 or 4 other teams around their level have been doing in recent years.

I would argue so for these reasons: After lots of commentary in recent weeks about the need for huge work to be done (and money to be spent) to spread the hurling world wider, one off victories like these only serve to get the powers that be off the hook. They can always point to them as evidence of the progress being made in weaker counties.

Huge celebrations of minor achievements like this only serve to reinforce the mentality that true hurling achievements are the exclusive preserve of the hurling aristocracy. By true hurling achievement I mean to be reaching, or be in very close contention for, All Irelands on a regular basis. Over the past 10 years or so, that's about 7 teams. Go back 100 or so years and it's those same 7 teams + 2 or 3 more.

And there was quite a groundswell of opinion growing behind the notion that "Dublin style" solutions needed to be applied to the "2nd tier" teams to improve things. Let's hope that doesn't all disappear now with this one victory.

Or who knows, maybe Laois will over time become genuine All Ireland contenders and offer a template to be applied elsewhere. Although at odds of 80 to 1 on, Paddy Power isn't expecting Tipp to facilitate a fast-track to the (semi) summit on Sunday.

terryrogers

Powerhouse wrote: »

As for Kilkenny winning all around them playing a county that has won nothing for years...………………..be careful about drawing comforts from that.

You see claiming to have the biggest Mickey is not quite as convincing as a demonstrable form line. Regarding the latter Cork's is reasonably decent (not bulletproof by any means) while Kilkenny's is dire.

In fairness he wasn't drawing comforts from Kilkenny's previous wins, he was making the point as an example to point out how you have selectively/erroneously used stats to make disingenuous conclusions.

Form lines aren't the most reliable indicator either, eg. Galway have only lost 2 games in 3 years and where are they now. Tipp got their arses handed to them the last day having been the form team this year.

Cork-KK is very hard to call IMO. Cork have averaged 29/27pts for/against this year (excluding Westmeath game which is hard to infer anything from) and KK have averaged 25/25pts (excluding Carlow game). This lines up with the bookies 2 point spread in Corks favour.

I have a feeling though that we will have a draw on Sunday. Another interesting stat I noticed last year, there were 7 draws in championship in the previous 3 years and James Owens officiated 4 of them. The man loves to keep the losing team in it.

There's huge pressure on both teams in this game. A first decade without an AI title for Cork or even a decade with just one final appearance would be unacceptable for the county. The pressure on KK is probably more internal, 4 year's without an AI would not be acceptable to Cody. Intriguing game...

ShamoBuc

Are they ever going to open the upper level tickets for Sunday!?

JJs Left Hand

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Are they ever going to open the upper level tickets for Sunday!?

Do you think they'll need to?

There won't be more than 45k there in my opinion

RoyalCelt

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Are they ever going to open the upper level tickets for Sunday!?

Lower hogan and cusack not far off selling out so I'd imagine they will. Probably on Saturday.

ShamoBuc

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Lower hogan and cusack not far off selling out so I'd imagine they will. Probably on Saturday.

Yeah, only seats at the far back left, that people would prefer not to buy remaining. Reckon there's a lot of people waiting for better seats.

Realt Dearg Sec

ShamoBuc wrote: »

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Lower hogan and cusack not far off selling out so I'd imagine they will. Probably on Saturday.

Yeah, only seats at the far back left, that people would prefer not to buy remaining. Reckon there's a lot of people waiting for better seats.

Yeah but if everyone's waiting they won't sell out the lower, and not open the upper.

munsterlegend

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah but if everyone's waiting they won't sell out the lower, and not open the upper.

Yes but surely the aim is to have as many people there as possible?!

Realt Dearg Sec

munsterlegend wrote: »

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Yeah but if everyone's waiting they won't sell out the lower, and not open the upper.

Yes but surely the aim is to have as many people there as possible?!

Not exactly. This is croke park. It's about maximising revenue. If they have 40000 people in the lower tiers, that's probably more revenue overall than 45000 across the lower and upper tiers, given the added expense of opening upstairs.

Powerhouse

terryrogers wrote: »

In fairness he wasn't drawing comforts from Kilkenny's previous wins, he was making the point as an example to point out how you have selectively/erroneously used stats to make disingenuous conclusions.

Form lines aren't the most reliable indicator either, eg. Galway have only lost 2 games in 3 years and where are they now. Tipp got their arses handed to them the last day having been the form team this year.

Cork-KK is very hard to call IMO. Cork have averaged 29/27pts for/against this year (excluding Westmeath game which is hard to infer anything from) and KK have averaged 25/25pts (excluding Carlow game). This lines up with the bookies 2 point spread in Corks favour.

I have a feeling though that we will have a draw on Sunday. Another interesting stat I noticed last year, there were 7 draws in championship in the previous 3 years and James Owens officiated 4 of them. The man loves to keep the losing team in it.

There's huge pressure on both teams in this game. A first decade without an AI title for Cork or even a decade with just one final appearance would be unacceptable for the county. The pressure on KK is probably more internal, 4 year's without an AI would not be acceptable to Cody. Intriguing game...

Very solid argument. Why look for unscientific stuff like previous form when you can have a feeling instead? I'd definitely go with your feeling at this stage. A draw it is then.

munsterlegend

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Not exactly. This is croke park. It's about maximising revenue. If they have 40000 people in the lower tiers, that's probably more revenue overall than 45000 across the lower and upper tiers, given the added expense of opening upstairs.

A lot of people would decide to go on the day as well depending on weather. I could understand not opening if very low crowd expected.

Nic_Col

I'm 99% sure there can be no draw on Sunday; extra time and 65' free taking competition if still level for the preliminary quarter finals and quarter finals. Replays only for provincial finals and All-Ireland semi finals and final.

me89

Upper Cusack on sale now, section 705

C__MC

sportsmaddad wrote: »

First off, hats off to the Laois hurlers for taking the scalp of one of the so called top tier teams on Sunday. They've deservedly received a lot of praise from all quarters this week. I'm sure they'll have the other 30 counties behind them as they take on Tipperary on Sunday.

It all must feel a bit strange for them, given that so much of the conventional wisdom last week was very different. Even their own Cheddar Plunkett, and many others, openly questioned the value of pitting the Joe McDonagh winners against a "top tier" team.

The conventional wisdom this week is full of admiration for their achievement. Lots of comments along the lines of a "great day for hurling". Of course Cheddar was in full celebratory mood on the GAA Hour the other day and why wouldn't he be? But I note that he pointed out, on more than one occasion, that without further Laois progress, this would remain pretty minor in the overall scheme of things.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that this was a bad day for hurling, UNLESS Laois do actually build on it and firmly establish themselves as a "top tier" team over the next 5 years or so. Yes, no matter what, it was a great day for Laois and that particular bunch of players, but not for anyone else, if Laois just yo yo up and down like 3 or 4 other teams around their level have been doing in recent years.

I would argue so for these reasons: After lots of commentary in recent weeks about the need for huge work to be done (and money to be spent) to spread the hurling world wider, one off victories like these only serve to get the powers that be off the hook. They can always point to them as evidence of the progress being made in weaker counties.

Huge celebrations of minor achievements like this only serve to reinforce the mentality that true hurling achievements are the exclusive preserve of the hurling aristocracy. By true hurling achievement I mean to be reaching, or be in very close contention for, All Irelands on a regular basis. Over the past 10 years or so, that's about 7 teams. Go back 100 or so years and it's those same 7 teams + 2 or 3 more.

And there was quite a groundswell of opinion growing behind the notion that "Dublin style" solutions needed to be applied to the "2nd tier" teams to improve things. Let's hope that doesn't all disappear now with this one victory.

Or who knows, maybe Laois will over time become genuine All Ireland contenders and offer a template to be applied elsewhere. Although at odds of 80 to 1 on, Paddy Power isn't expecting Tipp to facilitate a fast-track to the (semi) summit on Sunday.

I dont expect laois to become a standard Liam mc carthy team. Tipp will tank them.sunday

golfball37

My predictions for Sunday

KK to beat Cork after extra time- 1 point. I think KK will turn this into a battle. Cork's game relies on a lot of moving parts all functioning correctly to perform to its optimum. Player for player they are better than KK but with KK you have to be 5 points better to win by a point. If Cork don't have their shooting boots on early KK will grow in confidence. The Cork defence can be got at too. TJ Reid I predict will copperfasten his HOTY nomination on Sunday. Cork didn't impress me in Ennis at all.

Game 2-Tipperary in second gear by about 15 points. I don't think they'll go out to humiliate them. They'll do what KK did to Carlow early on and take the foot off the gas. If they want to though they can win this by 30 points realistically. Its unfair on Laois being out 3 weeks in a row and it will tell.

mountgomery burns

Tipperary will go for goals where other teams would settle for points even if ahead by 10. Enough examples over the years. If they are creating goal chances you would fear for Laois.

terryrogers

Nic_Col wrote: »

I'm 99% sure there can be no draw on Sunday; extra time and 65' free taking competition if still level for the preliminary quarter finals and quarter finals. Replays only for provincial finals and All-Ireland semi finals and final.

As far as I was aware the provincial/AI finals go to replay after 70 mins in the event of a draw. The quarter/semi finals go to replay after extra time (as happened with the Galway v Clare semi final last year). And only the preliminary QFs were to be decided on the day with free-taking if required.

ShamoBuc

me89 wrote: »

Upper Cusack on sale now, section 705

Yeah, got mine in 704, near the front, happy with that.

Mahony0509

The amount of Laois flags on the motorway is fantastic to see. Banners saying “Laois - home of hurling” and “Laois4Liam” aplenty! Great to see, hope they give Tipp a test today.

Mantis Toboggan

Some amount of laois fans wandering around the city. This is their all Ireland.

big_drive

Cork by 7 pts

Tipp by 12 pts

spurshero

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Some amount of laois fans wandering around the city. This is their all Ireland.

Last Sunday was there all Ireland . Today is a day out they thought they never have

RMAOK

Mahony0509 wrote: »

The amount of Laois flags on the motorway is fantastic to see. Banners saying “Laois - home of hurling” and “Laois4Liam” aplenty! Great to see, hope they give Tipp a test today.

I hope they stay in the match until Midway through the second half in order to make a game of it. Wouldn't like to see tipp sticking 2 early goals and killing off the game early tbh.

munsterlegend

Tipp can run riot against the best teams - look what they did against Cork and Clare so i’d fear a similar fate for Laois. The limerick defeat will have shook them though a little.

Itssoeasy

How warm will it be in Dublin Today ?

Dr. Bre

I just hope Laois we’re not on the pi$$ All week and do themselves justice today.

threeball

Pi$$ poor crowd for Cork Kilkenny. Should be a great game but the place isn't even half full. Surely Thurles was the place to play this.

RMAOK

threeball wrote: »

Pi$$ poor crowd for Cork Kilkenny. Should be a great game but the place isn't even half full. Surely Thurles was the place to play this.

And give tipp home advantage against laois?

Unless of course, tipp and laois was played in tullamore.

threeball

RMAOK wrote: »

And give tipp home advantage against laois?

Unless of course, tipp and laois was played in tullamore.

I'm only on about this game. Tipp Laois as you said could go to Tullamore or better yet Nowlan park. Places would be packed to the rafters.

John.Icy

Shocking crowd. And a decent number of Laois fans in already which means the KK/Cork numbers are woeful.

RMAOK

Good start by Cork

Blinky Plebum

Shouldn't the Cork v Kilkenny match be the second game, seems mad to have it as the curtain raiser.

threeball

Blinky Plebum wrote: »

Shouldn't the Cork v Kilkenny match be the second game, seems mad to have it as the curtain raiser.

Would clash with Mayo Kerry.

RMAOK

threeball wrote: »

Would clash with Mayo Kerry.

Also, laois weren't thought to beat Dublin....

threeball

John.Icy wrote: »

Shocking crowd. And a decent number of Laois fans in already which means the KK/Cork numbers are woeful.

It's high time the Gaa started giving a sh1t about fans and game atmosphere. They have zero regard.

RMAOK

Think there was interference with Reid's faceguard there....

Angliru

Surely steps from Fennelly there

threeball

Kilkenny ball into their forwards is shockingly poor

threeball

Why are KK conceding the short puck out to cork when that's exactly where they like to build from?

PTH2009

Great game anyone could win it really. Dont think Limerick will be overly worried but ya never knw the breaks the killer

citykat

Owens doing his level best for Cork here

Happyilylost

Cody needs to make a big decision on Hogan.

RMAOK

Cork backs are very sloppy with the ball - their forwards have the beating of the Kilkenny backs but Cork's back 6 are very loose

BQQ

Fitzgibbon threw that ball to Horgan for the second goal
Never gets called anymore
Either change the rule to allow throwing the ball or enforce it ffs

uptherebels

Angliru wrote: »

Surely steps from Fennelly there

Counted 9 myself, unless I missed a touch.

Mucky_Tackies

Didn't see that as a throw

Lefty Bicek

Happyilylost wrote: »

Cody needs to make a big decision on Hogan.

Larbre34

Whats the craic for the semis lads, is it open draw?