Bowman Palace plan

Weepsie

Wow. 100 % has to be covered by warranty you'd hope.

dave_o_brien

Ah f*****************ck...

comete

That’s dreadful luck! I’d be fuming!

iwillhtfu

Are both chainstays cracked there. Looks to be in the same spot either side also so perhaps someone blending the welds a bit to much.

Your story won't be a highlight for Bowman thus far :P

fat bloke

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Are both chainstays cracked there. Looks to be in the same spot either side also so perhaps someone blending the welds a bit to much.

You're story won't be a highlight for Bowman thus far :P

It's only on one side, the drive side. Ironically yeah, the same spot as the previous frame, though different issues. The first one was just being worn by the wheel because of a fault with the dropouts, but this is another thing entirely.

Maybe I need to start looking at titanium if I want a bike for life, or even a bike for a season .
Who was commenting lately on the mistrust of carbon and structural integrity over the long term? I've had no such issues with old carbon frames.

Anyway, as before the ball is in Bowman's customer care court now and I can only hope they'll be as amenable as before. Though I suppose, do I have to start asking the question about Bowman build number three and whether it's worth it or not?

iwillhtfu

They say plastic lasts pretty much forever

Aero gains may be negative but hey ho it'll melt before it cracks

ARX

fat bloke wrote: »

Who was commenting lately on the mistrust of carbon and structural integrity over the long term? I've had no such issues with old carbon frames.

As far as I understand (IANAEngineer - happy to be corrected) carbon basically has an infinite lifetime if it's not crushed or snapped, whereas aluminium will eventually break due to fatigue. I had a ten-year old Giant Defy frame crack at the top tube/seat tube weld a while back (seatpost was always well below the minimum insertion depth).

I do wonder how well frames from small manufacturers (Bowman, Ribble etc) are designed and tested in comparison with large (Giant, Trek etc).

comete

I’ve seen a handful of cracked titanium frames, I’d say stick to carbon or steel. An engineer mate tells me welding is bad for thin-walled titanium. The high heat causes local hardening and increased brittleness.

A mate had two VN titanium frames crack in the same place as your bowman, and ultimately just got a refund and went for a custom steel bike.

ARX

8valve will be along shortly to recommend a 1980s steel road bike!

comete

ARX wrote: »

8valve will be along shortly to recommend a 1980s steel road bike!

There are lots of very nice 2020’s steel bikes to choose from, but I’m heavily biased!

themighty

Can't believe that. I've been following for a bit, I came very close to buying a Palace a few years ago but ended up with a CAAD12 (wanted disc brakes). It's beautiful looking bike. Bowman having some serious QC issues it seems - very disappointing.

Very surprised to hear about issues with aluminium. I've 2 aluminium frames both with lifetime warranties. My banger is a 17 year old Trek that's been through the wars - crashed a bunch of times, the carbon seatpost snapped on me a few years back (10miles home with no sitting down:pac:) - the frame is still immaculate though.

fat bloke

It's hard to know. Am I just really unlucky and third time will be a charm? Or is there something awry? The web isn't completely devoid of cracked Bowman frames, or indeed any complaints at all about their frames. It's all sweetness and light. It's weird that my first frame was one of the very last of their first gen, which you'd have thought would have been well tried and tested and it's bona fides well established. My yellow frame on the other hand was one of the very first new gen ones. A difficult birth in terms of manufacturing - can only imagine the stresses and strains and pressure heaped upon any frame manufacturer or aluminium supplier during the Covid bike-famine.

Don't really know what to do now when they get back to me. I suppose I'll have plenty of time to decide because I presume that, as before, they'll want to ship the frame back to themselves to have a look at it and confirm that it's a warranty issue.

In that sense, the timing isn't appalling altogether because my plan anyway was that I would service the bike, clean it up and then put it away until after the summer and in the meantime ride my better/good bike for the summer season.

n+1 is good that way.

philten

That's very bad luck. I will keep an eye on mine!

philten

Thanks very bad luck, will keep an eye on mine!

themighty

You're probably right - factories just pumping out frames as fast as possible, the smaller brands getting the short end of the stick.

Hope it doesn't take too long to sort out. No harm looking at the other brands anyway, it'd be asking a bit much to expect much customer loyalty after all the trouble you've been put through:D.

At least it won't affect your cycling.

comete

If you’re looking for something to temporarily hang the components on, this is one rung down from the top end frame, but would make a cracking winter steed: https://www.adverts.ie/22865494

eeeee

God I am so invested in the saga I am almost personally disappointed by this not-fat_bloke. Really wanted a Bowman myself one day.
I have a Caad12 and it's like a tin can, mudguards have marked it, and it's got a teeny tiny dent in a seatstay, from very careful handling. Straight back to carbon for me. Have a 2012 F5 and it's as solid as a rock (and lighter too!).

fat bloke

eeeee wrote: »

God I am so invested in the saga I am almost personally disappointed by this not-fat_bloke. Really wanted a Bowman myself one day.
I have a Caad12 and it's like a tin can, mudguards have marked it, and it's got a teeny tiny dent in a seatstay, from very careful handling. Straight back to carbon for me. Have a 2012 F5 and it's as solid as a rock (and lighter too!).

The killer is that it genuinely is one of the nicest bikes I've ever ridden. A proper race bike. I do a lot of climbing, so that means a lot of descending. Now, my kamikaze days are behind me but I spent years riding very fast motorbikes so I know a bit about how to take a corner and the ease and confidence you can swoop down a twisty hill on the Bowman is something else.

All in all I've had very poor luck with high end Aluminium. I good few years ago I paid a winter-trainer premium for an Aluminium Storck and it was also a very very nice bike to ride, for all the same reasons as the Bowman, but it hardly lasted me half a season. The rear derailleur launched itself into the rear wheel one day and instead of the dropout snapping, it sheared off a corner off the frame, so you couldn't replace the dropout. I asked around, no one would or would fix it and it basically rendered the frame all but useless.

How many more tries do I give the metal?

comete

fat bloke wrote: »

How many more tries do I give the metal?

In my opinion, none if they’ll give you a refund. stick to carbon or try steel

CantGetNoSleep

comete wrote: »

In my opinion, none if they’ll give you a refund. stick to carbon or try steel

After the wait for the last one, I definitely wouldn't be content with getting a frame shipped to you to build up yourself again without some form of financial compensation. Probably take a few months again too.

Pity there is no real independent cycling media to promote this, they are all too busy sucking up to brands, especially British ones

fat bloke

No word back from Bowman HQ yet anyway. In the mean time my brain is in a whirl as to what I should do at all. Looking up aluminium frames generally there's a strongly held view out there that mechanical fatigue and, ultimately, failure is inevitable in an aluminium frame. That is not something I thought or knew. Given that Bowman's frame warranty is not lifetime, it's more like 4 or 5 years - that puts a stark stopwatch time-line on your bike doesn't it?!
As much as I liked the frame and was a fan of the concept and the company I must say I'm leaning away from it now and looking at alternatives. - Back to good ol' carbon maybe. If I get a refund from Bowman I'll have only a very meagre sum for carbon frame shopping, but I will also have a complete "build-a-bike" kit lying around, ready for the right frame when it crops up. There are no frame bargains anywhere in the current market - new or used, but I'm also not in any hurry. - I dusted off my super-used-bargain canyon aeroad last night for a jaunt up the featherbeds, Sally Gap and back the Military road and was reminded of what a fabulous bike that is, so I'm well catered for, which is great.

It will be a sad and pathetic end to my grand Bowman experiment but.... the writing is on the wall really isn't it

Plastik

The internet is a weird and wonderful place. Just because metal fatigue can happen certainly doesn't mean that metal fatigue will happen, just as carbon de-lamination could happen. I've a 2011 CAAD10 here with untold mileage, numerous dents, and it's still rocking along just fine. I've put about 37,000km on it and I'm at least the 3rd owner. But there's no doubt about it, this is a ballache of a situation to have to be dealing with, and twice. Like you've said, there isn't exactly a proliferation of stories online about their frames failing and I know a good few lads now riding them. Another option is take and flip the replacement frame on. Probably worth more than the monetary refund. And you've a few months to find something else and not exactly stuck for something with the R5 and Aeroad!

fat bloke

I'm not exactly paving the way for a frame sale here though am I?

*goes back and deletes all negative posts*

Just looking at the Trek Emonda ALR there and they offer a lifetime frame warranty. -For Bowman Inc. Y'know, their whole thing is their frames. They're flying the flag for aluminium, the Palace is their long time baby. It's not like they update it every year, the first gen Palace R is around for donkeys and this is the brand new one on which they're hanging their hats and reputation. Jesus like if it was my company and I got a catastrophic failure back like mine there... I'd have the worry-beads out!

magicbastarder

fat bloke wrote: »

No word back from Bowman HQ yet anyway.

not even an acknowledgement of your initial mail/contact?

fat bloke

magicbastarder wrote: »

not even an acknowledgement of your initial mail/contact?

Brexit border checks on emails maybe?:pac:

ARX

Plastik wrote: »

The internet is a weird and wonderful place. Just because metal fatigue can happen certainly doesn't mean that metal fatigue will happen, just as carbon de-lamination could happen. I've a 2011 CAAD10 here with untold mileage, numerous dents, and it's still rocking along just fine. I've put about 37,000km on it and I'm at least the 3rd owner.

Giant have a lifetime frame warranty, with 10 years on forks. Trek have a lifetime frame & rigid fork warranty. Planet X offer only 2 years, Ribble 3 years and Bowman 5 years. It doesn't sound like the smaller manufacturers have much confidence in their products.

JimmiesRustled

ARX wrote: »

Giant have a lifetime frame warranty, with 10 years on forks. Trek have a lifetime frame & rigid fork warranty. Planet X offer only 2 years, Ribble 3 years and Bowman 5 years. It doesn't sound like the smaller manufacturers have much confidence in their products.

I think it has more to do with overall turnover and profit. Comparing Giant (the group that pioneered the compact bike design) with Ribble (a small bike shop in the Ribble valley that have developed over the years into an online retailer) is a bit unfair.

A quick search showed Giants profits for 2020 at €107 million with Ribble at €2.2 million. As well as that, giant manufacture frames for other brands which isn't taken into account within that profit.

BMC offer 3 years.
Canyon offer 2 years.
Colnago offer 2-3 years.
Pinarello offer 5 years.
Merida offer 5 years but it's void if the rider is over 120kg.

I think it's unfair to call out Ribble and the others on this when many much larger brands do the same.

magicbastarder

now i'm curious as to how merida police that condition.

CantGetNoSleep

fat bloke wrote: »

I'm not exactly paving the way for a frame sale here though am I?

*goes back and deletes all negative posts*

Just looking at the Trek Emonda ALR there and they offer a lifetime frame warranty. -For Bowman Inc. Y'know, their whole thing is their frames. They're flying the flag for aluminium, the Palace is their long time baby. It's not like they update it every year, the first gen Palace R is around for donkeys and this is the brand new one on which they're hanging their hats and reputation. Jesus like if it was my company and I got a catastrophic failure back like mine there... I'd have the worry-beads out!

Do you have invoices for getting it built up twice? Given you would need to build it up a third time, and both failures were their fault, and your wait in between frames, I'd ask them for a full bike.

Mefistofelino

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

I think it has more to do with overall turnover and profit. Comparing Giant (the group that pioneered the compact bike design) with Ribble (a small bike shop in the Ribble valley that have developed over the years into an online retailer) is a bit unfair.

A quick search showed Giants profits for 2020 at €107 million with Ribble at €2.2 million. As well as that, giant manufacture frames for other brands which isn't taken into account within that profit.

BMC offer 3 years.
Canyon offer 2 years.
Colnago offer 2-3 years.
Pinarello offer 5 years.
Merida offer 5 years but it's void if the rider is over 120kg.

I think it's unfair to call out Ribble and the others on this when many much larger brands do the same.

Yup - "warranty" is mostly a case of how much cash you want to set aside to deal with future failures and not necessarily related to failure rates. Cars with identical components can have different warranty periods - several Kia and Hyundai models are identical under the skin and have different warranties.

Because a material can fatigue doesn't mean that something made of that material is guaranteed to fail over its lifetime. Its simply a case of factoring that into the design. I had a Ribble 7005 frame which had years of abuse and had zero failures. However, it was overbuilt, heavy and dead to ride. "Sprightly" (for want of a better word) alloy frames may not be overbuilt to the same extent.

However, having said all that, the fact that the failure happened in a weld area may indicate poor welding, weld embrittlement or overly aggressive weld bead removal. The difference between Bowman and, say, Giant or Cannondale may be down to the affordability of better quality procedures.

Hope you get sorted - it was a great looking bike.