New ceiling light. Don't see this problem under electrics.

reggaeman · 24-03-2019 8:40pm #1

Got three wires coming in through the ceiling. All three are separate. 1 live 2 neutral and no earth. I cut away a bit of the ceiling just to make sure there was no other wires. I traced one neutral and the live back to one switch (the light is worked by two switches) the other neutral to the other switch. The two switches have earth in them.
I can't install my new light because there is no earth wire in the ceiling.
My question is can I disconnect the one neutral wire in the switch and not use it anymore and use it as a earth wire for my new light.
Many Thanks.

salmocab · 24-03-2019 8:42pm

reggaeman wrote: »

Got three wires coming in through the ceiling. All three are separate. 1 live 2 neutral and no earth. I cut away a bit of the ceiling just to make sure there was no other wires. I traced one neutral and the live back to one switch (the light is worked by two switches) the other neutral to the other switch. The two switches have earth in them.
I can't install my new light because there is no earth wire in the ceiling.
My question is can I disconnect the one neutral wire in the switch and not use it anymore and use it as a earth wire for my new light.
Many Thanks.

Probably not, you would likely be breaking the circuit of something else.

newirishman · 24-03-2019 8:44pm

reggaeman wrote: »

Got three wires coming in through the ceiling. All three are separate. 1 live 2 neutral and no earth. I cut away a bit of the ceiling just to make sure there was no other wires. I traced one neutral and the live back to one switch (the light is worked by two switches) the other neutral to the other switch. The two switches have earth in them.
I can't install my new light because there is no earth wire in the ceiling.
My question is can I disconnect the one neutral wire in the switch and not use it anymore and use it as a earth wire for my new light.
Many Thanks.

You can't use it as earth.

Do you really need earth for the light fitting?

meercat · 24-03-2019 8:53pm

As stated already, if the light fitting is metal then it requires an earth

Any chance of photos

Unusual setup if there’s a neutral at switch but no earth(is it possible that the earth is sleeved in blue sleeving)
What color are the cores of the wires at light fitting and were the 2 neutral wires connected together before you removed the old fitting

Risteard81 · 24-03-2019 9:01pm

Sounds like a single permanent phase to a switch (with strappers between) and that single back for the switchwire. And a single neutral to the luminaire.

This is very old wiring and realistically is well overdue for rewiring.

It is unsafe to use any Class I accessories/luminaires where there is no cpc present.

keithdub · 24-03-2019 9:12pm

If I were you I would fit it up as is and then think about rewiring your house if you feel the need. Do go messing with something you can't fix

reggaeman · 24-03-2019 9:58pm

newirishman wrote: »

You can't use it as earth.

Do you really need earth for the light fitting?

Thanks for your reply.

Yes because the new light requires the earth.

reggaeman · 24-03-2019 10:02pm

meercat wrote: »

As stated already, if the light fitting is metal then it requires an earth

Any chance of photos

Unusual setup if there’s a neutral at switch but no earth(is it possible that the earth is sleeved in blue sleeving)
What color are the cores of the wires at light fitting and were the 2 neutral wires connected together before you removed the old fitting

Thanks.

All the wires are in a gray sleeves. 2 blue and one brown. I don't know how to upload photos on this site.

reggaeman · 24-03-2019 10:10pm

keithdub wrote: »

If I were you I would fit it up as is and then think about rewiring your house if you feel the need. Do go messing with something you can't fix

Thanks

reggaeman · 24-03-2019 10:16pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Sounds like a single permanent phase to a switch (with strappers between) and that single back for the switchwire. And a single neutral to the luminaire.

This is very old wiring and realistically is well overdue for rewiring.

It is unsafe to use any Class I accessories/luminaires where there is no cpc present.

Thanks.
Looks like I will have to get a electrician to look at it. It's only a new extension so I've been done. (Its not possible to do anything about him now)

Risteard81 · 24-03-2019 11:49pm

reggaeman wrote: »

Thanks.
Looks like I will have to get a electrician to look at it. It's only a new extension so I've been done. (Its not possible to do anything about him now)

It could well be that I have misunderstood what the current (excuse the pun) setup is. Without photos it's a bit hard to picture.

reggaeman · 25-03-2019 9:58pm

Photos of wiring.
https://img.ie/image/fig-1.u8Q

https://img.ie/image/fig-2.u8R

https://img.ie/image/fig-3.u8S

hope you can help

reggaeman · 25-03-2019 10:01pm

meercat wrote: »

As stated already, if the light fitting is metal then it requires an earth

Any chance of photos

Unusual setup if there’s a neutral at switch but no earth(is it possible that the earth is sleeved in blue sleeving)
What color are the cores of the wires at light fitting and were the 2 neutral wires connected together before you removed the old fitting

Thanks. i found away to show you the photos.

Photos of wiring.
https://img.ie/image/fig-1.u8Q

https://img.ie/image/fig-2.u8R

https://img.ie/image/fig-3.u8S

I hope this works.

Risteard81 · 25-03-2019 10:04pm

Was this carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor (REC)? I certainly hope not. It looks like something a builder would do.

If it was a REC then report it to RECI immediately.

If not, and Restricted Electrical Works were carried out then this is a criminal offence.

salmocab · 25-03-2019 10:10pm

That’s beyond shoddy, who in the name of god did that?
Did you burst your air tightness membrane looking for a earth that doesn’t exist? I’d be out for blood if I were you

Deagol · 25-03-2019 10:20pm

Surely this has to be a windup? I'm not an electrician and even I'm horrified at the state of that! Can't be safe to leave it like that either?

ForestFire · 25-03-2019 10:24pm

My god that looks like someone just randomly tried different connections until something worked.

I am not electrian (electronic engineer) , but you can tell a lot from how neat someone's work is. Have they planned, understood and laid it out correctly.

You don't have to be an electrian though to tell that switch work is sh1t.

I have assisted in the wiring of my own house (father is retired eletrian) many years ago and every wire is cut striped and inserted to perfection.

Jesus if they can't even get a wire striped to the right length to go into the fixture, so that the wire is not left exposed.

Report immediately as advised.

meercat · 25-03-2019 10:48pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Was this carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor (REC)? I certainly hope not. It looks like something a builder would do.

If it was a REC then report it to RECI immediately.

If not, and Restricted Electrical Works were carried out then this is a criminal offence.

This is good advice. Do nothing else now until it’s reported and inspected by reci(safe electric)

reggaeman · 25-03-2019 11:29pm

Thank you for all your feed back. Only I was putting a new light in I wouldn’t have known.
I will report it.

Charles Ingles · 25-03-2019 11:34pm

No way an electrician done that.
Unsafe

Felexicon · 26-03-2019 1:26pm

Jaysus that is rough work.

From the pictures it seems as if he has done the following.

T+E to the switch in Pic. 1
Neutral is in connector block and carried by a single up to light fitting.
Live is connected to COM on switch
Earth is connected to metal back box.

Not the way I'd do it but I've seen it before.

It's the set up for the 2 way switching that makes it dangerous.

He has brought another T+E From switch 1 to switch 2.
The "Earth" is connected to the COM to carry power to the outside light switch.
The "Neutral" and "Live" are used as the strappers and a single live is then brought from the switch 2 back up to the light.

I can only assume that the other Neutral at the light fitting in Pic 3 goes on to the next light on that circuit.

To make the new fitting "safe" you need to get an earth back to switch 1 and connected to the terminal in the metal back box.

I'd be getting a professional in to check all wiring this guy did in your house.

reggaeman · 27-03-2019 1:19am

Felexicon wrote: »

Jaysus that is rough work.
&
From the pictures it seems as if he has done the following.

T+E to the switch in Pic. 1
Neutral is in connector block and carried by a single up to light fitting.
Live is connected to COM on switch
Earth is connected to metal back box.

Not the way I'd do it but I've seen it before.

It's the set up for the 2 way switching that makes it dangerous.

He has brought another T+E From switch 1 to switch 2.
The "Earth" is connected to the COM to carry power to the outside light switch.
The "Neutral" and "Live" are used as the strappers and a single live is then brought from the switch 2 back up to the light.

I can only assume that the other Neutral at the light fitting in Pic 3 goes on to the next light on that circuit.

To make the new fitting "safe" you need to get an earth back to switch 1 and connected to the terminal in the metal back box.

I'd be getting a professional in to check all wiring this guy did in your house.

Thanks for your advice. Electrician will be calling this week.

New ceiling light. Don't see this problem under electrics.

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