Why would you vote SF?

FrancieBrady

derfderf wrote: »

Maybe they did, but they haven't campaigned against every single trearty since. Now they're the EU party in the north purely to be seen on the other side of the fence from the sh*tshow going on in the UK at the moment.

'The EU party in the north'?

What does that even mean? They do not want it to leave. That doesn't mean they have to change from been euro sceptic.
Personally, I would class myself very wary of where the EU is going, but I am fervently of favour of staying in it, and I think quite a few Irish voters would be the same.
It isn't a 'love-in' to take that position.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The poster clarified immediately what was meant. Hardly somebody intent on lying.

And I'm sure if nobody had picked up on his false claims he'd have corrected himself as well :rolleyes:

As I already said - standard tactic of trying to slip lies through in the hope they won't be noticed

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is it that you think that they are really anti EU?

That's been their position for every single EU vote in Ireland, and for every EU vote except for Brexit in the UK.
Maybe they've seen the light, or maybe they're just cynical opportunists who will sway whatever way the wind is blowing. Not like Sinn Fein have a recent history of populist u-turns or anything like that.

jm08

derfderf wrote: »

Neutrality, Conscription, tax, and social policy weren't even touched in the treaty. The assurances may have been necessary for the electorate who didn't read it all, or maybe didn't understand, but surely a serious political party should have known this and not needed assurances?

Who actually read the whole of the Lisbon Treaty? You would need to have been a constitutional lawyer to understand it to make those pronouncements.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

That's been their position for every single EU vote in Ireland, and for every EU vote except for Brexit in the UK.
Maybe they've seen the light, or maybe they're just cynical opportunists who will sway whatever way the wind is blowing. Not like Sinn Fein have a recent history of populist u-turns or anything like that.

Far as I can see they have always advocated a policy of 'critical engagement' with the EU.

That seems sensible to me even though it may not be 'popular' with some. What has been done in the EU has clearly not always been in Ireland's favour.

derfderf

jm08 wrote: »

Who actually read the whole of the Lisbon Treaty? You would need to have been a constitutional lawyer to understand it to make those pronouncements.

So where did Sinn Fein's position come from? Did they not read it, not understand it, or purposely misrepresent it?

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Far as I can see they have always advocated a policy of 'critical engagement' with the EU.

That seems sensible to me even though it may not be 'popular' with some. What has been done in the EU has clearly not always been in Ireland's favour.

The vast majoirty of what the EU has done has been in Ireland's favour though, and SF have opposed all of it - not just the "bad" bits.

Disingenuous in the extreme to oppose every single thing (including membership) and to then try and paint it as "critical engagement".

It's been blind opposition to everything from day 1, right up until Brexit made them realise exactly what the end game is for the path SF had been advocating for 40+ years

FrancieBrady

derfderf wrote: »

So where did Sinn Fein's position come from? Did they not read it, not understand it, or purposely misrepresent it?

Can you not do some research before commenting?

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/12457

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

The vast majoirty of what the EU has done has been in Ireland's favour though, and SF have opposed all of it - not just the "bad" bits.

Disingenuous in the extreme to oppose every single thing (including membership) and to then try and paint it as "critical engagement".

It's been blind opposition to everything from day 1, right up until Brexit made them realise exactly what the end game is for the path SF had been advocating for 40+ years

'Blind'?

Same answer to you. Do some research before reaching for generalisations and tropes. From the same page as I posted to derpderp. This comes from 2008..a few seconds of googling.

"Sinn Féin's believes that Irelands place is within the EU. Irish membership has brought social and economic benefits to Ireland, north and south. We are also aware that not everything has been good news, and often proposals that emerge from within the EU institutions have negative effects on Ireland. So we believe that the best approach to the EU is to critically assess each proposal on its merits. When something is clearly not in our interests or that of the wider EU, we oppose it and campaign to change it

derfderf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'The EU party in the north'?

What does that even mean? They do not want it to leave. That doesn't mean they have to change from been euro sceptic.
Personally, I would class myself very wary of where the EU is going, but I am fervently of favour of staying in it, and I think quite a few Irish voters would be the same.
It isn't a 'love-in' to take that position.

I mean they're the party in the north that represents the people that voted remain.

decky1

I don't suppose it will ever happen, all they've promised about health care, schools etc maybe it's time to let bygones be bygones and give them a chance, could they be any worse than what's there already?

FrancieBrady

derfderf wrote: »

I mean they're the party in the north that represents the people that voted remain.

As do the SDLP, Alliance, UUP and PBP.

But SF are 'the' EU party? :rolleyes:

derfderf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Blind'?

Same answer to you. Do some research before reaching for generalisations and tropes. From the same page as I posted to derpderp. This comes from 2008..a few seconds of googling.

"When something is clearly not in our interests or that of the wider EU, we oppose it and campaign to change it"
So every single EU/ECC treaty, from membership, right up to Lisbon, has not been in Ireland's interest, but at the same time it's brought social and economic benefits north and south?

derfderf

decky1 wrote: »

I don't suppose it will ever happen, all they've promised about health care, schools etc maybe it's time to let bygones be bygones and give them a chance, could they be any worse than what's there already?

Of course it could, they wanted us to copy Greece.

derfderf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As do the SDLP, Alliance, UUP and PBP.

But SF are 'the' EU party? :rolleyes:

Are they all historically eurosceptic parties? I actually don't know. I've no problem with eurosceptic parties, i do have a problem with them jumping on the remain bandwagon.

And this thread is about Sinn Fein anyway.

FrancieBrady

derfderf wrote: »

"When something is clearly not in our interests or that of the wider EU, we oppose it and campaign to change it"
So every single EU/ECC treaty, from membership, right up to Lisbon, has not been in Ireland's interest, but at the same time it's brought social and economic benefits north and south?

Have you looked at the work of their MEP's in the actual Union? Has their work brought benefits for north and south?

Our relationship with the EU has not always been beneficial...or are you saying it has?

zapitastas

Snow Garden wrote: »

Fair point and Mary Lou has been superb on recent referendums around SSM and Repeal8th. Arlene and here crew are in the 1800s when it comes to those issues.

Still though, the Irish language being a red line issue? It looks petty and pretentious.

If you look at it through the prism of the EU, the support of minority languages is anything but petty and pretentious. I imagine there are those in Brussels looking at the DUP in complete bewilderment.

maccored

blackwhite wrote: »

I'm not the one making false claims on the thread.

Wasn't it you that claimed previously that in September 2016 Sinn Fein were unaware that Article 40 was going to be invoked - 3 months after the Leave vote had passed? And you accuse others of "stretching things"!

I dare say that to assume Sinn Fein in 1973 bears any resemblance to the SF of today is indeed stretching things

derfderf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have you looked at the work of their MEP's in the actual Union? Has their work brought benefits for north and south?

Our relationship with the EU has not always been beneficial...or are you saying it has?

We've had to give up a little to get a lot, in a lot of cases. That's part and parcel of pooling sovereignty etc.
In my opinion the EU has been overwhelmingly positive for Ireland. Do you think otherwise?

maccored

blackwhite wrote: »

And I'm sure if nobody had picked up on his false claims he'd have corrected himself as well :rolleyes:

As I already said - standard tactic of trying to slip lies through in the hope they won't be noticed

Lies? Lies like SF in 1973 bare any reflection on SF today?

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Blind'?

Same answer to you. Do some research before reaching for generalisations and tropes. From the same page as I posted to derpderp. This comes from 2008..a few seconds of googling.

Actions speak significantly louder than how they try to spin it after the fact.

They've blindly opposed every single EU vote in Ireland - including membership.

derfderf

blackwhite wrote: »

Actions speak significantly louder than how they try to spin it after the fact.

They've blindly opposed every single EU vote in Ireland - including membership.

If they were correct they could say "we tried to warn you". When nothing comes if it we move on and forget?

FrancieBrady

derfderf wrote: »

We've had to give up a little to get a lot, in a lot of cases. That's part and parcel of pooling sovereignty etc.
In my opinion the EU has been overwhelmingly positive for Ireland. Do you think otherwise?

It has nothing to do with what 'I' think or what 'you think'. (I happen to think it has been hugely beneficial to Ireland)

There is an implication being made that SF are anti-EU. I think that is unfair and part of the usual anti-republican bias you get on here.

blackwhite

maccored wrote: »

Lies? Lies like SF in 1973 bare any reflection on SF today?

Maybe the SF-approved dictionary has a different definition of the word "always" to the one the rest of the world uses?

Does the SF dictionary have a definition of "always" that excludes every single EU referendum held in Ireland?


Most people have the common decency to hold their hand up and admit a mistake when the blindingly obvious is pointed out to them. Not so for the SF support on here it seems. Quelle surprise :rolleyes:

derfderf

maccored wrote: »

I dare say that to assume Sinn Fein in 1973 bears any resemblance to the SF of today is indeed stretching things

What about 1992, 2001, 2002, 2008, and 2009?

BarryD2

blackwhite wrote: »

Maybe they've seen the light, or maybe they're just cynical opportunists who will sway whatever way the wind is blowing. Not like Sinn Fein have a recent history of populist u-turns or anything like that.

I think SF like many parties will sway on matters like this according to what way they think the public are inclined. Look at the water charges issue, initially they were on board with the 'polluter pays principle', that it would be fair if the wealthier with more bath rooms and pools paid more with metered charges etc. I heard party reps saying they'd register and pay, not too dissimilar from the north etc. But as soon as they figured that the grassroot urban dweller couldn't give a feck about paying by use or even paying anything at all, they changed tune pronto.

But these policies & politicking are all a means to a greater agenda that can be implemented when they've enough bums on seats and everything else is a means to get there. And that agenda is a united Ireland whether a substantial proportion of the population agree or not. A simple majority is their plan and to hell with the consequences. It's a valid agenda in it's own way but it's the agenda of the zealot and the ordinary voter should always be wary of the zealot. These people whether of a nationalistic or religious bent always spell trouble.

dundalkfc10

VOTE DUP

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

Actions speak significantly louder than how they try to spin it after the fact.

They've blindly opposed every single EU vote in Ireland - including membership.

Again with the 'blindly'. They have opposed them for very clear reasons (rightly or wrongly) and that is what I would expect any political party to do.

I would be skeptical of where the EU is headed and would advocate large reforms while not being in the slightest 'anti EU' and recognising it's many many benefits.
I consider most Irish voters to be in the same boat tbh.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It has nothing to do with what 'I' think or what 'you think'. (I happen to think it has been hugely beneficial to Ireland)

There is an implication being made that SF are anti-EU. I think that is unfair and part of the usual anti-republican bias you get on here.

If you come from a viewpoint where nothing SF have ever, ever done can be criticised then maybe you can arrive at that weird viewpoint. (and of course - the thinnly veiled insinuations that you can't be "republican" if you criticise the SF cult).

In the real world however, most people would see it as a fair summation that a party that has campaigned to reject every single EU referendum in Ireland is anti-EU. (and that's before we recall their cheerleading for the anti-EU parties like Syriza)

derfderf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It has nothing to do with what 'I' think or what 'you think'. (I happen to think it has been hugely beneficial to Ireland)

There is an implication being made that SF are anti-EU. I think that is unfair and part of the usual anti-republican bias you get on here.

They campaigned against membership, and campaigned against three further treaties (two of them twice). Is it really that much of a stretch to think they're anti-eu?

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

If you come from a viewpoint where nothing SF have ever, ever done can be criticised then maybe you can arrive at that weird viewpoint. (and of course - the thinnly veiled insinuations that you can't be "republican" if you criticise the SF cult).

In the real world however, most people would see it as a fair summation that a party that has campaigned to reject every single EU referendum in Ireland is anti-EU. (and that's before we recall their cheerleading for the anti-EU parties like Syriza)

You make it sound like there were hundreds of referendums.

I have plenty of criticisms of SF's economic policies etc which is why I am not a voter for them. (excepting M. McG for Pres and some local candidates)

Again I ask you too, have you reviewed the work of their MEP's and arrived at them having an 'anti-EU' stance?

Why would the leader of a party (not normally afraid to speak up on his beliefs) say 'that Ireland's place is within the EU in 2008, if he believed otherwise at that point?

Are you perhaps the one now trying to promote a simplistic falsehood?