Discovery 2x11 'Perpetual Infinity' [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

TheValeyard

Definitely going to be some mommy issues this week!!

Looks like same location as previous week, now with added explosions and pew pew.

Hopefully we find out more about spikegate in the retinal scanner. Good thing it wasn't in the toilet! Actually not sure which is worse.

Spear

Spoilers tags just in case:

So Control seems to have a similar approach to the borg, in terms of using nanoprobes, but doesn't appear to actually be the borg, and is it's own thing.

And while I thought the early pacing of the series arc lagged badly after the first two episodes, it's clearer now that all the elements so far are in fact connected. And I'm okay with this in hindsight.

I didn't think there was any standout moment, or any really terrible moments equally.

I note that Tilly's rambling gets shutdown prompt this time.

There's also the mystery that's introduced but not followed, the signals aren't from the angel at all.

And for some speculation:

I reckon the events of Calypso are going to play out as the solution to powering the suit back in the future. I think we've already seen a major plot point passed off as an aside.

liamtech

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Definitely going to be some mommy issues this week!!

Looks like same location as previous week, now with added explosions and pew pew.

Hopefully we find out more about spikegate in the retinal scanner. Good thing it wasn't in the toilet! Actually not sure which is worse.

Hey guys!~ Could we go back to having 'SPOILERS' in the Thread Title? it seems better to do this so we, who have watched the episode can avoid having to cover everything we say, while also avoiding spoiling the episodes! Just seems a better approach
Thanks!

liamtech

Decent Episode! Better than Last weeks - not as good as 'The Cage' Prequel

SPOILERS SPOILERS!!!!

Control: I wouldnt necessarily rule out the Borg as being involved - we know that the Borg evolved for millennium and this AI could be either directly connected to its origin, (prequel to the Borg) or some kind of advanced 'spin-off/Evolution of it

Certainly enjoyed this part of the episode, it was excellent - i like Layland so im disappointed that it looks like we are gonna lose him from the series and the S31 spin off

The Red Angel Weaker than the control part of the plot - it does however add up -ties together several of the episodes nicely

ASH/Georgiu - decent chemistry enjoyed that

Tilly - control, please, before your defeated - kill tilly - much obliged

I think this was a decent episode, and to be honest if it maintained this pace/standard for the rest of the season i would be very happy with that - but i still suggest that Season 3 needs to de-centralize Burnham from plot arcs - i dont really have an issue with her being the star, but PLEASE dont have her personally connected to everything going on - other wise next season will be, Michael wrote an essay when she was 8 which romulans got a hold of, which lead them to develop the proper cloaking device and attack the federation etc etc - and only she can stop it .. yada yada

Sad Professor

I've added a spoiler warning to the thread title now, but even when it's not there, assume it is. There's no point spoiler tagging everything.

FutureGuy

We could very well be watching a Borg origin story or perhaps a Borg reboot.

Let's be honest, the Borg have dated badly, both in terms of look and power (thanks Janeway).

Something along the lines of what we are seeing with Leyland (immediate regeneration due to nanoprobes instead of shielding) but eventually keeping the hive mind would be a more modern take.

Could be completely wrong.

OldMrBrennan83

It's too close to the Borg not to be the Borg imo.

liamtech

I watched it AGAIN!!

the conversation between Control and Leyland, is a MASSIVE sign

Leyland paraphrases picard in BOBW - 'Never. I am my own Man' - 'I will resist you with my last ounce of strength'

then at 7:15

Control Paraphrases the Borg 'Struggle, is Pointless' - 'Resistance is Futile'

30 Seconds later Leyland is injected with Nanoprobes

Either this is connected to the Borg, be it a prequel, or sequel, or an evolution

OR

Fans are being Toyed with for the hell of it

Rawr

I liked that the story is moving along and that the Borg-ish Control stuff was in classic sci-fi villain territory, which is stuff I really like.

Alas, I have nits to pick:

Tilly: SHUT UP DAMMIT!! It just breaks my heart in each episode when they use her first lines to paint her yet again as a Science Clown. Did I mention that I really liked her in S1? I might have.....

Burnham Flashback in the opening: Something was very "off" with this scene. I could see various things that were designed to be dramatic, and to fill the scene with danger and gravity...but none of it landed. It was a very soulless scene that did little to endear me to younger Michael or her family.

I kept being reminded of Seven of Nine's backstory, where they did a better job at depicting the destruction of her family (given it was against The Borg, but still a better sense of fear and danger was shown).

Also...her parents were openly talking about Time technology with Michael there. Did she not remember any of that?

Michael's Emotions: I can't tell if this is down to Sonequa Martin-Green's acting, the manner in which she is being directed, or both...but whenever they try to get her to be sad like she was in this episode, it just comes across as jarring and weird. I'm certain that the show wants us to empathise with her, and I can see what they are trying to do to make us feel this way...but I just can't buy into it. S3 really does need to move away from Michael I feel.

Rawr

liamtech wrote: »

Fans are being Toyed with for the hell of it

Apart of me is afraid that they might go that way.

Also...whenever is saw his veins would grow dark I kept thinking:

"Come on! Pop out a Borg Implant!!"

But no....alas....

Also during the fight near the end I was really hoping he'd sprout adaptive shields

liamtech

Rawr wrote: »

Apart of me is afraid that they might go that way.

Also...whenever is saw his veins would grow dark I kept thinking:

"Come on! Pop out a Borg Implant!!"

But no....alas....

Also during the fight near the end I was really hoping he'd sprout adaptive shields

its a dangerous situation for Trek - i love the borg, despite voyager reducing them the way it did - but i would hate the idea of the borg having been created by the federation - accidentally

That said i stick with my assessment - either they are messing us about, or it is the borg - in one way shape or form

Rawr

liamtech wrote: »

its a dangerous situation for Trek - i love the borg, despite voyager reducing them the way it did - but i would hate the idea of the borg having been created by the federation - accidentally

That said i stick with my assessment - either they are messing us about, or it is the borg - in one way shape or form

I'm a really big Borg fan myself. They were one of the few Trek villains that originally was very scary to me (adding to their awesomeness).

If it's Borg, they really do need to be careful. I wouldn't put it past the original Collective to send the Control code back in time to screw with the Federation. This was essentially the plot of First Contact, and the Borg may have adapted their plan over time.

That...or some idiot found some of that Borg wreckage in the Arctic and reverse engineered the Central Plexus into the original Control. If Control is early Borg, that would make The Borg some kind of self-fullfilling paradox.

However...The Borg only ever wanted to assimilate...they never seemed to want to erase all life. Control's overall plan appears to be very different in this way. It could be that Control is just Borg-based...and that the Real Borg are still over in the Delta Quadrant.

OldMrBrennan83

Rawr wrote: »

Apart of me is afraid that they might go that way.

Also...whenever is saw his veins would grow dark I kept thinking:

"Come on! Pop out a Borg Implant!!"

But no....alas....

Also during the fight near the end I was really hoping he'd sprout adaptive shields

I wonder will we seen in the next episode that any flesh injury sustained at the end of this has been replaced by 'grown' mechanical parts.

liamtech

Rawr wrote: »

I'm a really big Borg fan myself. They were one of the few Trek villains that originally was very scary to me (adding to their awesomeness).

If it's Borg, they really do need to be careful. I wouldn't put it past the original Collective to send the Control code back in time to screw with the Federation. This was essentially the plot of First Contact, and the Borg may have adapted their plan over time.

That...or some idiot found some of that Borg wreckage in the Arctic and reverse engineered the Central Plexus into the original Control. If Control is early Borg, that would make The Borg some kind of self-fullfilling paradox.

However...The Borg only ever wanted to assimilate...they never seemed to want to erase all life. Control's overall plan appears to be very different in this way. It could be that Control is just Borg-based...and that the Real Borg are still over in the Delta Quadrant.

Im going to get no work done today:D:pac:

This has been playing on my mind too - however i do have a theory - the Borgs Ultimate goal is perfection - if they had assimilated all organic life in the milky way, they wouldnt necessarily need drones in the traditional sense anymore - they could simply evolve into pure artificial intelligence, capable of mimicking organic life if necessary - and with all the knowledge of every species, they would be practically unstoppable - with no more species left to assimilate, and all organic life gone, eventually all assimilated drones would also waste away -

except for the fact that the sphere may have had more data? bare with me

Given that burnham/mum was 900 years in the future, this version of the borg may have succeeded in complete galactic domination - and has transfered a copy/version of itself to the 23rd century to ensure that nothing interferes with this eventual outcome.

Also the federation would have been in contact with the El-Aurians, AND given the events of 'Regeneration' - the Federation should have some limited knowledge of the borg - if only a rumour - i think this season could be AMAZING - or catastrophic, depending on which route they pick

corkie

Rawr wrote: »

That...or some idiot found some of that Borg wreckage in the Arctic and reverse engineered the Central Plexus into the original Control. If Control is early Borg, that would make The Borg some kind of self-fullfilling paradox.

corkie wrote: »

Okay I didn't post this speculative theory from some youtube before.

But it was raised that there may have been reverse engineered borg tech from the movie 'First Contact' and possibility of borg nanoprobes infecting 'Control'. <<< (hence why advance tech, compared to TOS etc).

Wild theories from before RA episode.

But with Leiland been infected sound possibility now.

Sonequa Martin-Green is in the lead role of STD, so it keeps surprising me that people are still looking for her not to be a feature.

Rawr

corkie wrote: »

Sonequa Martin-Green is in the lead role of STD, so it keeps surprising me that people are still looking for her not to be a feature.

Depending on the nature of the contracts etc...the show's lead role(s) can change or the spread of focus on the cast can be broader.

It's fairly clear that with S1 and S2, the focus is on Michael and it could very well be that Martin-Green's contract even requires that the show is geared around her character. My hope is that her initial contract was only for the first 2 seasons, and that a 3rd season contract might not require Michael to be the primary focus of the show.

The thing is for me, Michael feels like a bit of an anchor around the neck of a show that could soar much higher if it didn't focus so much on a character that I feel has been executed so poorly. I feel that they need to bring forward the ensemble cast which they did manage to do a better job on and by doing this, elevate the show.

TheValeyard

Rawr wrote: »

I'm a really big Borg fan myself. They were one of the few Trek villains that originally was very scary to me (adding to their awesomeness).

If it's Borg, they really do need to be careful. I wouldn't put it past the original Collective to send the Control code back in time to screw with the Federation. This was essentially the plot of First Contact, and the Borg may have adapted their plan over time.

That...or some idiot found some of that Borg wreckage in the Arctic and reverse engineered the Central Plexus into the original Control. If Control is early Borg, that would make The Borg some kind of self-fullfilling paradox.

However...The Borg only ever wanted to assimilate...they never seemed to want to erase all life. Control's overall plan appears to be very different in this way. It could be that Control is just Borg-based...and that the Real Borg are still over in the Delta Quadrant.

In a future series of Star Trek novels the Borg switch to wiping out all life instead of assimilation. Could be heading down that road.

'We are the Borg. You will be annihilated. Your biological and technological distinctiveness have become irrelevant. Resistance is futile... but welcome'

Rawr

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Resistance is futile... but welcome'

Resistance would be better served against each other. Your biological and technological distinctiveness can do what it want....we don't need it no more

I didn't know they went that way with the books....interesting....

Yester

Rawr wrote: »

I liked that the story is moving along and that the Borg-ish Control stuff was in classic sci-fi villain territory, which is stuff I really like.

Alas, I have nits to pick:

Tilly: SHUT UP DAMMIT!!

Yeah shut up Tilly! Lol. She's a potentially interesting character but no waffling on the bridge.

fritzelly

Great episode - loved the fight scene between Georgiou and Leland
Lots going on - brain keeps saying borg, borg, borg!

Daxve

Lots of little adjustments that could be set up here to bring it more back in line with established canon. Holographic communication could be banned due to how control used it to mimic Star Fleet Admirals and literally any officer it wants to. We could be looking at an alternate timeline if they some how correct the past and Burnham's parents aren't killed (or jump to the future) then she stays with them and never goes to live with Sarek and doesn't become Spock's adopted sister hence her never being mentioned before by Spock.

Slydice

Enjoyed that. Sonja Sohn did great. Then that moment with Spock at the end!


Wierd nano bot things

Struggle is pointless! That's so the Borg.
Michael did a great job on thr waking up bit and hearing about her mother at the start.
Totally called that leland was going to be a bad guy albeit unwillingly

Ahh that was a great episode

Goodshape

Really good! Enjoyed that one.

GSPfan

Honestly if this season revolved around anyone other than Burnham I’d love it. Putting the Burnham fatigue to one side I really like the look and feel of this show. I don’t get hung up on the technology upgrade from a show made in the 60’s.

I would love if this was a Borg origin story. It would give life to something that is effectively dead. The Borg are the greatest villain in Star Trek history and if this is their origin I am happy that this is how it all began.

GSPfan

In addition to my above post....

I don’t like that they are seemingly using this season to undo mistakes made in the aesthetic appearance of season 1. Wait until they explain that hologram tech is now forbidden in Starfleet due to the manipulation of Control in this season.

CramCycle

I am presuming this harks back to their original theory that the sphere had data from loads of AIs, and Control uses this, so it has data on the Borg or similar, and Control uses this info itself. That is, it both is and is not the Borg.

fritzelly

CramCycle wrote: »

I am presuming this harks back to their original theory that the sphere had data from loads of AIs, and Control uses this, so it has data on the Borg or similar, and Control uses this info itself. That is, it both is and is not the Borg.

Ummm, not going with that theory - if the borg had encountered the sphere they would likely have destroyed it, not forgetting if they had encountered it then why didn't they assimilate all species in this quadrant.

Edit - unless First Contact comes into it, hope it is the origins of the borg

CramCycle

fritzelly wrote: »

Ummm, not going with that theory - if the borg had encountered the sphere they would likely have destroyed it, not forgetting if they had encountered it then why didn't they assimilate all species in this quadrant.

True, not buying that they are the origin of the Borg either. The Borg assimilate cultures and what makes them unique, maybe the observer took info the Borg would later assimilate or in the same way on Earth similar cultures make similar discoverys at the same time, Control could just be the beginning of something similar to the Borg to tease the fans but thats it.

I'd like for them to have something original, rather than this need to assimilate all the normal ST tropes of recent years.

Anteayer

It's also possible that 'Control' assimilated the Borg or nicked their tech at some stage in the future since it's supposed to be future-tech.

corkie

Some youtube that I can't find now, suggest that the borg evolved over a large timeframe than STD to TNG. If this is an origin story for them, they must have been teleport across space and time to a different quadrant etc.

Also heard that has been multiple times the borg evolved and destroyed etc.

Just could be another offshoot of them.

Also the final episodes (this season) are been hyped up as a major game changers, and suppose to resolve canon issues etc.

Only 3 episodes left, so a filler episode and probably a double episode finale?

Stark

corkie wrote: »

Some youtube that I can't find now, suggest that the borg evolved over a large timeframe than STD to TNG. If this is an origin story for them, they must have been teleport across space and time to a different quadrant etc.

It's mentioned in the Voyager episode "Dragon's teeth" that the Borg are at least 900 years old and originated in the Delta quadrant.

seamus

Stark wrote: »

It's mentioned in the Voyager episode "Dragon's teeth" that the Borg are at least 900 years old and originated in the Delta quadrant.

The Enterprise episode also asserted that those Borg tried to communicate with the Delta quadrant.

That's not to say it's impossible. Dr Burnham's safe house is 50,000 light years away, which could put it in Borg space. So there's potentially an unwitting causality loop where the Red Angel created the Borg in the Delta quadrant. It's a bit indulgent that the entire galaxy apparently revolves around humanity, but sure tis only a story.

I genuinely expected the AI to say, "Struggle is pointless...resistance is futile". Would have been way too obvious though.

Anteayer

How many episodes are in this series 13?

Goodshape

Anteayer wrote: »

How many episodes are in this series 13?

14

Col Jack ONeill

For everyone saying that this might be the Borg origins. It can’t be. The Borg existed during first contact in the delta quadrant. The future Borg we’re trying to contact them hence the woeful fight scene on the Enterprise’s deflector dish

GSPfan

Stark wrote: »

It's mentioned in the Voyager episode "Dragon's teeth" that the Borg are at least 900 years old and originated in the Delta quadrant.

Ok so this lines up with one thing i noticed. When Burnhams mom gets in the suit while the Klingons attack she goes 950 years into the past? Is this another subtle nod to something Borg related. They seem to be making a lot of similarities and it’s either to mislead us or get us excited.

GSPfan

Col Jack ONeill wrote: »

For everyone saying that this might be the Borg origins. It can’t be. The Borg existed during first contact in the delta quadrant. The future Borg we’re trying to contact them hence the woeful fight scene on the Enterprise’s deflector dish

You do realise there’s a time travel suit in this storyline yeah? There’s a chance the suit and Control gets sent back thousands of years and to a destination far far away.

To say something can’t happen when you have a time travelling suit is not accurate.

CramCycle

GSPfan wrote: »

Ok so this lines up with one thing i noticed. When Burnhams mom gets in the suit while the Klingons attack she goes 950 years into the past? Is this another subtle nod to something Borg related. They seem to be making a lot of similarities and it’s either to mislead us or get us excited.

She goes into the future, hence how she knows what happens and why her work is not working yet. Also how Control knows her, it would appear they have fought against each other a few times over the years.

GSPfan

CramCycle wrote: »

She goes into the future, hence how she knows what happens and why her work is not working yet. Also how Control knows her, it would appear they have fought against each other a few times over the years.

Oh she goes into the future? Ahhhh right.

ezra_

I like science!

Josey Wales

CramCycle wrote: »

She goes into the future, hence how she knows what happens and why her work is not working yet. Also how Control knows her, it would appear they have fought against each other a few times over the years.

Really? I thought she went 950 years into the past. I must check that scene out again.

AlmightyCushion

Josey Wales wrote: »

Really? I thought she went 950 years into the past. I must check that scene out again.

When the kilngon attacked, she tried to jump back an hour but actually jumped forward in time by 950 years.

Stark

GSPfan wrote: »

You do realise there’s a time travel suit in this storyline yeah? There’s a chance the suit and Control gets sent back thousands of years and to a destination far far away.

To say something can’t happen when you have a time travelling suit is not accurate.

It's possible. And I wouldn't put much past the Discovery writing team, they're willing to play loose with canon/plot consistency etc. But all the canon hints we've had up to now suggest that the Borg started from humble beginnings and evolved over many centuries to become the galactic threat we see in TNG. The alien in that Voyager episode stated that 900 years ago they were viewed by other races in the quadrant as an irritant rather than a threat. "Control" on the other hand, is already at a stage of advancement that seems to surpass even 24th century Borg. 24th century drones were easy to kill for example, at least until the adaptive shielding kicked in. None of the instant organic tissue regeneration seen in Leland-Control. Sending Control back 900 years to bootstrap the Borg would put them at way too advanced a threat stage too soon. Also, the Borg is a collective consciousness made up of organic minds, not an AI. It's quite likely that Control encountered the Borg and was able to steal technology, but I find it very unlikely that Control is the beginnings of the Borg.

Goodshape

Col Jack ONeill wrote: »

For everyone saying that this might be the Borg origins. It can’t be. The Borg existed during first contact in the delta quadrant. The future Borg we’re trying to contact them hence the woeful fight scene on the Enterprise’s deflector dish

Takes time for that signal to travel through space. If we are seeing the origin of the Borg, obviously they aren't left to sit around the Alpha Quadrant.

The Borg in First Contact were sending a message to where the Borg will be.

Maybe.

Rawr

Goodshape wrote: »

Takes time for that signal to travel through space. If we are seeing the origin of the Borg, obviously they aren't left to sit around the Alpha Quadrant.

The Borg in First Contact were sending a message to where the Borg will be.

Maybe.

If I remember right, by the time of TNG The Borg had already existed for many hundreds of years. If so, the First Contact message was for 21st Century Borg in the Delta Quadrant.

So for STD, we probably have Borg over in the Delta Quardant during this show.

Stark

Yup, again, Voyager explicitly called out that there were Borg in the Delta quadrant in the 15th century and they were a small outfit back then (i.e. that's where they started out). Even in the 24th century, "Borg" space is entirely in the Delta quadrant with them making occasional trips to the Alpha quadrant (largely spurred by Q making them aware of humans' existence in the Alpha quadrant). Having the Borg starting out in the Alpha quadrant and expanding to the Delta quadrant would be a major revision of the canon.

Goodshape

Goodshape wrote: »

Maybe.

Maybe not.

pixelburp

A strong Episode that rollicked along at a rapid pace. The borgNotBorg thing is getting a bit itchy though, you'd imagine they've done their homework re. the canon if this is indeed where they're going.

TheValeyard

It was a very entertaining episode.


Think the time suit will fling LelandDrone into 14th Century Delta Quadrant. Control will realise that it will need to assimilate organic life to succeed in its mission. Maybe it will need to build up the information the sphere, the long way, by assimilation.

Maybe the Borg have been assimilating species by date of encountering the sphere. All to fulfill Controls original mission.

TheValeyard

Also........



Where was the Admiral this week?


Did she magic herself off the ship?