Discovery 2x11 'Perpetual Infinity' [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

CramCycle

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats an issue with the "how", but the logic around "why" is where the gap was.
If I said to someone from 250 years ago that the paper wont let me set fire to it, but it will let me move it into the fireplace they'd probably raise an eyebrow

That was a bit weird, sentient enough to realise it was being deleted but not enough to know that it was being sent away.

seamus

OSI wrote: »

I more than likely missed it during the episode, but did they explain why Dr Burnham was being pulled back to "her time" in the future after jumping to save Michael, but she was never pulled back to her original time when she first disappeared?

I think it was actually the previous episode they had explained it.

Basically the idea is that the suit allows the wearer to interact with the target time period without strictly leaving their own time period, a bit like manipulating something through a plastic bag. Eventually the person would "snap back" to their own time. This is what the containment field was doing, it was keeping her held in that time.

Since Dr. Burnham's initial time jump didn't seem to use this "wormhole jump"-thing, I have to assume it was something she developed later on as a failsafe mechanism so she could keep going back to fix things.

What they didn't really deal with was that in the last episode, the S31 ship was supposed to have destroyed the wormhole to prevent her going back. The plan seemed to be that they grab the Red Angel, destroy the wormhole, and then she's trapped in the current timeline.
Then at the start of this episode the "snap back" thing is suddenly back on.

Did I miss something?

CramCycle

seamus wrote: »

I think it was actually the previous episode they had explained it.

Basically the idea is that the suit allows the wearer to interact with the target time period without strictly leaving their own time period, a bit like manipulating something through a plastic bag. Eventually the person would "snap back" to their own time. This is what the containment field was doing, it was keeping her held in that time.

Since Dr. Burnham's initial time jump didn't seem to use this "wormhole jump"-thing, I have to assume it was something she developed later on as a failsafe mechanism so she could keep going back to fix things.

What they didn't really deal with was that in the last episode, the S31 ship was supposed to have destroyed the wormhole to prevent her going back. The plan seemed to be that they grab the Red Angel, destroy the wormhole, and then she's trapped in the current timeline.
Then at the start of this episode the "snap back" thing is suddenly back on.

Did I miss something?

I could be wrong but I think they said she would still be pulled back but would die en route, so they get over this with the plan to beam her out of her space time to our space time.

Like I said, Dr. Who seems to be more rigourous in its explanations.

Inviere

GSPfan wrote: »

Having a magic time traveling suit is this seasons spore drive. It’s a very problematic plot device that will need to be neutered somehow.

I've just resigned myself to believing Discovery is its own alternate universe/timeline, regardless of what the writers/producers say. It's just more enjoyable when you don't have to resolve every little conflict that arises in the show.

GSPfan

Inviere wrote: »

I've just resigned myself to believing Discovery is its own alternate universe/timeline, regardless of what the writers/producers say. It's just more enjoyable when you don't have to resolve every little conflict that arises in the show.

It’s not problematic in relation to other shows, it’s problematic to have the technology to go anywhere with the spore drive or any time with the Angel suit as it really limits the ability to build a story that has any stakes.
They have already put the spore drive on the shelf but take it down when needed and they will need to destroy that suit and any chance of recreating it.

OldMrBrennan83

One thing I only remembered too, was there no mention of why there were no consequences for Spock for pulling the weapon on crewmates in the last episode?

AMKC

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

One thing I only remembered too, was there no mention of why there were no consequences for Spock for pulling the weapon on crewmates in the last episode?

Well if there was we never seen or heard of it. Sure they were too busy watching Micheal come back to life and trying to stop Leland that they probably forgot.

Drumpot

Is that AI thing that needled your man in the eye gonna end up being the borg? Seems like something the borg would do. Take over some lad and have him doing all sorts of stuff like beating up women.

I like this show.

TaurenDruid

liamtech wrote: »

its a dangerous situation for Trek - i love the borg, despite voyager reducing them the way it did - but i would hate the idea of the borg having been created by the federation - accidentally

That said i stick with my assessment - either they are messing us about, or it is the borg - in one way shape or form

So apparently canon has it that the Borg are thousands of years old so this can't be their origin if they're going to respect canon...

...*but* if they were going to not have the Borg be thousands of years old, the way to do it would have been for the Ilia/V'ger hybrid from ST:the Motion Picture to be the original Borg Queen.

My 2c, anyway...

Drumpot

Can somebody explain the sphere info and what ai is taking over humans?

What was the sphere, where did it come from and where did that AI come from?

I’m a bit lost regarding the foe.

Goodshape

Drumpot wrote: »

Can somebody explain the sphere info and what ai is taking over humans?

What was the sphere, where did it come from and where did that AI come from?

I’m a bit lost regarding the foe.

The sphere is – in the long standing Trek tradition – a mysterious space thing that has travelled the galaxy for thousands (?) of years, collecting and storing data. It's final act before death was to transfer it's knowledge to Discovery. Don't think there's much else known about it.

The AI ("Control") was built by Starfleet and/or Section 31 as an aid for decision making, but it got a little too smart for it's own good and started making decisions for it's own benefit.

Control wants the data that the sphere has collected, believing it may hold the key to true AI consciousness or whatever.

pixelburp

Man, the people who like to whinge about PC culture will be kept busy when AIs arrive, and the bots understandably complain about the negative portrayals of them in popular media

corkie

Borg Paradox!

TaurenDruid wrote: »

...*but* if they were going to not have the Borg be thousands of years old, the way to do it would have been for the Ilia/V'ger hybrid from ST:the Motion Picture to be the original Borg Queen.

Have a read of the borg wiki, the non-canon part has the Borg already tied to V'Ger!

If the current story-line is the origin of 'The Borg', the paradox of the movie 'First Contact' would have had the borg wipe-out their own creators if they where successful.

It has been speculated that for an origin story that Control/Leland are transported into past and the delta quadrant some time in the next few episodes.

GreeBo

seamus wrote: »

s.

What they didn't really deal with was that in the last episode, the S31 ship was supposed to have destroyed the wormhole to prevent her going back. The plan seemed to be that they grab the Red Angel, destroy the wormhole, and then she's trapped in the current timeline.
Then at the start of this episode the "snap back" thing is suddenly back on.

Did I miss something?

Was it actually destroyed though? By that stage it was Central responding about the "we need more power!" so clearly Central is running that ship and the whole thing could have been fiddled sensors/holograms etc.

Goodshape

corkie wrote: »

If the current story-line is the origin of 'The Borg', the paradox of the movie 'First Contact' would have had the borg wipe-out their own creators if they where successful.

Or did the events of First Contact, maybe some left-behind Borg tech they didn't quite understand, put Starfleet / Section 31 on the path to creating Control and thus giving birth to the Borg.

So *if* the Borg had succeeded in FC they would have prevented themselves from ever existing, but they didn't succeed and ended up creating themselves instead.

Paradox *this*.

Slydice

Enterprise already paradoxed the Borg / First Contact thing

corkie

@Goodshape YES! Didn't want to confuse things further with my post also mentioning Self Creation Paradox as well.

[screenrant] Star Trek Theory: Discovery Season 2 Is The Borg's Origin?

TheValeyard

Or the Borg already knew about this.

Maybe this is why they only send one cube at a time, where as other species have faced a swarm of cubes.

The Borg have been trying to get 24th century Starfleet up to a higher tech standard so they make sure the event of First Contact take place so the remains of Borg are found on Earth (Enterprise episode) and transmit that signal to the Delta Quadrant.......so Section31 can eventually create Control, possibly using Borg fragments from the Artic or destroyed assimilated vessel, which will be sent back in time to the Delta Quadrant and the birth of the Borg begins....again.

The Borg may be a fixed event in time, or created by another unseen force.

The signal sent to the Delta Quadrant could contain the mission for future Borg to ensure their survival. Maybe some of those Borg quotes have deeper meanings than what they appeared originally.


Borg Queen "Human, we used to be just like them"

Borg Hive: "Our survival is your survival"

Daith

Section 31 using leftover Borg parts to create Control sounds plausible but also too Terminator so I'm not sure that's the direction.

Johnny Storm

Spock has dyslexia? What's up with that? It seemed pretty irrelevant to me

AtomicHorror

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Spock has dyslexia? What's up with that? It seemed pretty irrelevant to me

It's a nice nod to neurodiversity. Would be good to see more of it really.

FutureGuy

I’d love some sort of nod to the fact we are now really in a fluid timeline. For example, Dr. Burnham saying “you think there’s one timeline? I’ve seen so many events. A Starfleet engineer giving humanity access to new building materials hundreds of years before their time. A billionaire stealing 29th century tech and building an technological dynasty. Humans now fly around the galaxy on ships 200 years more advanced - just like that”

Hence the tech differences we see when we watch the older era of Trek.

Goodshape

FutureGuy wrote: »

I’d love some sort of nod to the fact we are now really in a fluid timeline. For example, Dr. Burnham saying “you think there’s one timeline? I’ve seen so many events. A Starfleet engineer giving humanity access to new building materials hundreds of years before their time. A billionaire stealing 29th century tech and building an technological dynasty. Humans now fly around the galaxy on ships 200 years more advanced - just like that”

Hence the tech differences we see when we watch the older era of Trek.

Yeah, some line like "my god Michael, I've been to the 1960s and I've seen how television shows were made! Don't make me go back there!!"

Stark

FutureGuy wrote: »

A billionaire stealing 29th century tech and building an technological dynasty.

"Tom Paris shacking up with Sarah Silverman" :eek:

Evade

Isn't all the time-traveling assumed to be predestination paradoxes, except maybe some of the Temporal Cold War stuff? There always was a computer revolution in the sixties, Guinan always did meet Picard in the Old West, Janeway always did know she'd strand everyone in the Delta Quadrant, etc.

Stark

Speaking of that Voyager episode where they land in the 90s. That was an interesting one as by that time, real world time had caught up with "Trek time" and according to Trek canon they should have landed in the middle of the Eugenics wars but instead arrived in 90s Earth similar to real world 90s Earth.

Slydice

Slydice wrote: »

Enterprise already paradoxed the Borg / First Contact thing

Voyager started that by having the Hansens know about the Borg and studying them long before TNG timeline (and able to get to deep enough space to encounter Cubes, with a small research ship.

Stark

Stark wrote: »

"Tom Paris shacking up with Sarah Silverman" :eek:

Damn she was/is hot

Slydice

Deleted User wrote: »

Voyager started that by having the Hansens know about the Borg and studying them long before TNG timeline (and able to get to deep enough space to encounter Cubes, with a small research ship.

Enterprise was before TNG

heck

Enterprise was before TOS

Slydice

Slydice wrote: »

Enterprise was before TNG

heck

Enterprise was before TOS

Yes but Voyager is the one that had the Federation know of the Borg long before Q. Had the Federation studying Borg, have models of ship etc.

Ent just played off First Contact (and trying to fix VOYs mess of that timeline)

Tine line was, of course, messed up from day one. Borg were meant to be the season 2 big bad but the writers strike ruined that and they had already teased a colony scooping menace.

pixelburp

Is there wriggle room in simply saying the Federation is such a sprawling entity that maybe some parts knew of the Borg, while others didn't, with poor interdepartmental communication? Knowledge sharing being so poor that you had these pods of communication failing to twig that two doors down, Dr Scuttlebutt was doing the same research. Given how as hoc the society is, people like the Hansons could have been doing their own thing...

Slydice

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but Voyager is the one that had the Federation know of the Borg long before Q. Had the Federation studying Borg, have models of ship etc.

Ent just played off First Contact (and trying to fix VOYs mess of that timeline)

Tine line was, of course, messed up from day one. Borg were meant to be the season 2 big bad but the writers strike ruined that and they had already teased a colony scooping menace.

So ye're saying it wasn't a paradox then?

Franz Von Peppercorn

GSPfan wrote: »

I like this. Imagine that conversation with the person from 1769, you’d run out of ways to try explain it and finally resort to just saying “Magic, that’s how it’s done. Magic.”

Not really since they are still using SQL.

Slydice

pixelburp wrote: »

Is there wriggle room in simply saying the Federation is such a sprawling entity that maybe some parts knew of the Borg, while others didn't, with poor interdepartmental communication? Knowledge sharing being so poor that you had these pods of communication failing to twig that two doors down, Dr Scuttlebutt was doing the same research. Given how as hoc the society is, people like the Hansons could have been doing their own thing...

I'd say so. Although It originally felt like the Romulans / Klingons had a better chance of hearing of the Borg existence given their position in the Beta quadrant being closer to the Delta quadrant.

corkie

With all the time incursions the Red Angel has caused so far and with more possible changes to the timeline in the remaining episodes of this season.

I wonder will "Dulmur and Lucsly" make an appearance.

GreeBo

If the time travelling suit plot gets out of hand they could ruin the entire timeline for earth....then there would be nothing left on earth excepting fishes...

Col Jack ONeill

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but Voyager is the one that had the Federation know of the Borg long before Q. Had the Federation studying Borg, have models of ship etc.

Ent just played off First Contact (and trying to fix VOYs mess of that timeline)

Tine line was, of course, messed up from day one. Borg were meant to be the season 2 big bad but the writers strike ruined that and they had already teased a colony scooping menace.

Are we ever given a definitive time gap between TNG when they first encountered the Borg and when the Hansons would have been assimilated in relation to when Voyager takes place.

Could it be that there's maybe a couple of decades in between and that's why the Hansons were able to get out there?

Col Jack ONeill

Col Jack ONeill wrote: »

Are we ever given a definitive time gap between TNG when they first encountered the Borg and when the Hansons would have been assimilated in relation to when Voyager takes place.

Could it be that there's maybe a couple of decades in between and that's why the Hansons were able to get out there?

From Mem Alpha

Q-Who: 2365

Annika assimilation: She was assimilated by the Borg in 2356 at age six, along with her parents, but was liberated by the crew of the USS Voyager in 2374.


The Hansen's were off researching 10 years before Starfleet was supposedly introduced to the Borg. They also had multi adaptive shielding and the Raven was given to them by the Federation.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Seven_of_Nine

Even better is that 7 was shown to have assimilated loads of Alpha quadrant species.
How many Borg cubes, from the Unimatrix, are on our side of the galaxy?

Col Jack ONeill

Fair enough, I wasn't sure of the timeline at all. Yeah that's a bit of a mess alright. In that case let this be the beginning of the Borg.

TheValeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How many Borg cubes, from the Unimatrix, are on our side of the galaxy?

Hard to say with the transwarp conducts they could literally be anywhere they wanted in a very short space of time.

seamus

To be fair, the Voyager stuff is easily hand-waved off. They were on a field mission to study rumours of a new lifeform. One of probably hundreds of potential leads, hundreds of small science studies taking place at any given time.

They left and went dark, without filing a flight plan, and never checked in with Starfleet. Presumed lost.

So when the Enterprise encounters the Borg ten years later, there's no reason why the Enterprise would automatically connect this encounter with the movements of a single tiny science vessel a decade before that embarked on an exploration mission with very loose parameters and disappeared.

One could surmise that Cmdr. Shelby probably joined the dots when she was planning for the Borg invasion, but given that no useful intel came from the Raven, it would be nothing more than a curio, so wouldn't be mentioned.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

To be fair, the Voyager stuff is easily hand-waved off. They were on a field mission to study rumours of a new lifeform. One of probably hundreds of potential leads, hundreds of small science studies taking place at any given time.

They left and went dark, without filing a flight plan, and never checked in with Starfleet. Presumed lost.

So when the Enterprise encounters the Borg ten years later, there's no reason why the Enterprise would automatically connect this encounter with the movements of a single tiny science vessel a decade before that embarked on an exploration mission with very loose parameters and disappeared.

One could surmise that Cmdr. Shelby probably joined the dots when she was planning for the Borg invasion, but given that no useful intel came from the Raven, it would be nothing more than a curio, so wouldn't be mentioned.

Except the rumours were of a cybernetic race who assimilated people, the research was sanctioned by the Federation, and the Raven was a federation long range research vessel.
Everything was above board. They knew something was out there.

Now there is validity in saying that the Federation would not have been actively preparing for a Borg incursion but the Enterprise computer (even Data alone) had far less important information about a myriad of topics to hand easily.
Hell, Ent was a ship of exploration with hundreds of scientists aboard. Someone would have known (other than Guinan)

The MAIN problem is not the knowledge of the Borg (although that annoys me), rather, it's the fact that the Borg were gallivanting around the Alpha/Beta near Earth space at least a decade before Q-Who and assimilating Alpha quadrant races (Ferengi: Species 180)
It's the transwarp hubs. The Borg could wipe out the entire galaxy in a few years. Their limitation to a certain part of the Delta is baffling.
TNG brought in Transwarp, for the Borg, but it was not shown as this galaxy spanning monster tech.

AtomicHorror

Col Jack ONeill wrote: »

Are we ever given a definitive time gap between TNG when they first encountered the Borg and when the Hansons would have been assimilated in relation to when Voyager takes place.

Could it be that there's maybe a couple of decades in between and that's why the Hansons were able to get out there?

The Hansens were assimilated in about 10 years before Enterprise encountered the Borg. It makes sense both from Voyager and from Generations that there would have been rumours about the Borg among Starfleet intelligence and the xenobiology community for a long time prior- at least as early as the El-Aurian exodus. Guinan and Soran reached Federation space in 2293, about 70 years before the events in Q Who.

AtomicHorror

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The Hansens were assimilated in about 10 years before Enterprise encountered the Borg. It makes sense both from Voyager and from Generations that there would have been rumours about the Borg among Starfleet intelligence and the xenobiology community for a long time prior- at least as early as the El-Aurian exodus. Guinan and Soran reached Federation space in 2293, about 70 years before the events in Q Who.

I never understood why Guinan didn't tell Picard about the Borg.
One of the El Aurians would have spilled the beans.

Major ships and captains not knowing is really bad. This is a TNG issue from Generations and a VOY issue from Hansen's.
The Borg being on Fed/Romulan/Klingon doorstep for decades and no one realising or Borg incursions?? All on Voy

AtomicHorror

Deleted User wrote: »

It's the transwarp hubs. The Borg could wipe out the entire galaxy in a few years. Their limitation to a certain part of the Delta is baffling.

I'm not so sure- Star Trek has always struggled to consistently convey the vastness of the galaxy, not just the distances between systems and quadrants, but just the sheer volume of stars, planets and species. Part of the problem being that warp speed moves at the speed of plot, I suppose.

Even though the Borg can move at great speed, they still need to stop and actually assimilate entire multi-system civilizations, each consisting trillions of individuals. They may well have explored the entire galaxy by the time of TNG, but that doesn't mean they have the time or resources to assimilate every system they visit. The Borg would work like a computer, benefit:cost analysis, prioritize, then put the proportionate resources to work on those priorities.

AtomicHorror

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I'm not so sure- Star Trek has always struggled to consistently convey the vastness of the galaxy, not just the distances between systems and quadrants, but just the sheer volume of stars, planets and species. Part of the problem being that warp speed moves at the speed of plot, I suppose.

Even though the Borg can move at great speed, they still need to stop and actually assimilate entire multi-system civilizations, each consisting trillions of individuals. They may well have explored the entire galaxy by the time of TNG, but that doesn't mean they have the time or resources to assimilate every system they visit. The Borg would work like a computer, benefit:cost analysis, prioritize, then put the proportionate resources to work on those priorities.

Except the Borg don't work like that.
Their assimilation technique meams they gain resources everytime. Smallest foothold and they are growing. Their tactic of sending one cube at a time shows how effective this must be.
They won't have the same logistical issues of normal belligerents.

Exploration, physically, would be assimilation. They've shown that the will stop immediately, for bio/tech of worth.
One cube goes in, established beach head and that's it. All other resources are sourced locally. We've seen their construction speeds they would overwhelm once established. And it's not like a political enterprise growing; they swarm, absorb, move on.
They should be absolutely terrifying.

Evade

Why is everyone referencing Q Who as the first encounter with the Borg when, Enterprise aside, season one's the Neutral Zone is? Yes they were off screen but it's established that they were assimilating Alpha/Beta Quadrant races before they met the Enterprise D in Q who. Every lost colony/ship/station/outpost could potentially have been assimilated by the Borg.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

Why is everyone referencing Q Who as the first encounter with the Borg when, Enterprise aside, season one's the Neutral Zone is? Yes they were off screen but it's established that they were assimilating Alpha/Beta Quadrant races before they met the Enterprise D in Q who. Every lost colony/ship/station/outpost could potentially have been assimilated by the Borg.

I don't think that's in dispute- and it looks like they were around even earlier. More the question is why they stopped at a few colonies instead of mass assimilation.

I think that just underestimates the work involved, even for the Borg, but it is an interesting question.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Why is everyone referencing Q Who as the first encounter with the Borg when, Enterprise aside, season one's the Neutral Zone is? Yes they were off screen but it's established that they were assimilating Alpha/Beta Quadrant races before they met the Enterprise D in Q who. Every lost colony/ship/station/outpost could potentially have been assimilated by the Borg.

Yeah we were discussing it earlier, I think that I said their timeline was screwed from day one from the writers strike. Could have been handled much better after the writers strike concluded, not doubling down in Voyager.

Atomic is saying how much resources to conquer and I would agree if not for Voyager showing them to have a galaxy spanning transwarp network allowing instant attacks anywhere.

Why are cubes slowly making their way to Earth when a simple drop out of TW at Sol would work.
Voyager simultaneously made the Borg terrifyingly strong AND insanely weak at the same time.

liamtech

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I'm not so sure- Star Trek has always struggled to consistently convey the vastness of the galaxy, not just the distances between systems and quadrants, but just the sheer volume of stars, planets and species. Part of the problem being that warp speed moves at the speed of plot, I suppose.

Even though the Borg can move at great speed, they still need to stop and actually assimilate entire multi-system civilizations, each consisting trillions of individuals. They may well have explored the entire galaxy by the time of TNG, but that doesn't mean they have the time or resources to assimilate every system they visit. The Borg would work like a computer, benefit:cost analysis, prioritize, then put the proportionate resources to work on those priorities.

I agree completely with this - we have often seen that in terms of light years and distance, there are contradictory examples within trek canon

Taking voyager as a a base line - 70 odd thousand years - 70+ years to traverse

if you look at an image of the Milky way - and divide it into quadrants, with the federation focused in the alpha quad - and the Klingon Romulans in beta quadrant - then it should take years to get from earth/federation, to either of these interstellar empires - yet it doesn't - the NX01 does it in a few weeks -

also the federation is described as encompassing a large portion of the Alpha Quadrant - in the DS9 episode - Family Business - Kasidy Yates ship the Xhosa is describes as taking almost 8 weeks to traverse the entire federation to get to Cestus III - described by sisko as 'the other side of the federation' -

So the Xhosa can traverse a large chunk of the alpha quadrant in 8 weeks - but voyager will take 70 years to get from the delta quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant???

I think when we discuss distance in star trek, we have to remember its a sci fi series, so distance is what ever it needs to mean, its a plot device