Discovery 2x11 'Perpetual Infinity' [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

AtomicHorror

liamtech wrote: »

I agree completely with this - we have often seen that in terms of light years and distance, there are contradictory examples within trek canon

Taking voyager as a a base line - 70 odd thousand years - 70+ years to traverse

if you look at an image of the Milky way - and divide it into quadrants, with the federation focused in the alpha quad - and the Klingon Romulans in beta quadrant - then it should take years to get from earth/federation, to either of these interstellar empires - yet it doesn't - the NX01 does it in a few weeks -

also the federation is described as encompassing a large portion of the Alpha Quadrant - in the DS9 episode - Family Business - Kasidy Yates ship the Xhosa is describes as taking almost 8 weeks to traverse the entire federation to get to Cestus III - described by sisko as 'the other side of the federation' -

So the Xhosa can traverse a large chunk of the alpha quadrant in 8 weeks - but voyager will take 70 years to get from the delta quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant???

I think when we discuss distance in star trek, we have to remember its a sci fi series, so distance is what ever it needs to mean, its a plot device

I think how this really struck me was not through Star Trek but a game called Elite Dangerous which simulates the full Milky Way galaxy and allows players to explore it. Players can jump to a star system, scan the stars planets, moons etc, and then their name will always appear as the discoverer. Each of these actions and the journey times takes just a few minutes (so as not to make an already slow paced game even slower).

Thousands of players exploring for the last five years, able to move between stars in mere minutes and to explore in seconds. Borg-like speeds, if not faster. They've explored 16 million star systems over the last say 5 years.

Imagine if that number of systems was cited in Star Trek, where the Federation is generally assumed to comprise a few hundred species. In story context it would sound ludicrous.

Now consider that those 16 million systems represent 0.004% of the simulated Milky Way galaxy.

At the current rate of exploration, taking minutes to explore, not stopping to settle down or build anything, those thousands of Elite Dangerous players will take another 120,000 years to fully explore the Galaxy. Not to settle it, just to visit each star and scan the system.

The numbers aren't intuitive, so it's little wonder Star Trek gets it wrong frequently. But with regards to the Borg's progress, I don't think they're wildly out of line.

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

I think when we discuss distance in star trek, we have to remember its a sci fi series, so distance is what ever it needs to mean, its a plot device

I agree with everything you say but this.
Sci-Fi should set its rules and adhere to these. Otherwise it becomes fantasy.

Sure you stretch/bend but they made the powers too big, on the map, for the amount of species we ever see.
It's an error and they have to live with that, or just do a prequel series.

And boom, back on topic ha. Now about that spore drive allowing them go anywhere!!!

AtomicHorror

AtomicHorror wrote: »

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The numbers aren't intuitive, so it's little wonder Star Trek gets it wrong frequently. But with regards to the Borg's progress, I don't think they're wildly out of line.

Totally see what you are saying and it makes total sense for everyone but the Borg.

They should have an exponential growth. The more they conquer the faster they get as each system assimilated grows the collective.
They are more like a viral pandemic. Each infected moves on to infect more, who in-turn can infect even more, especially with the transwarp jump points bypassing growth pressures/inhibition to the rear (previously assimilated areas)

Ha basically airports in a pandemic. Infections will spread slowly enough until you introduce rapid travel to multiple previously distant areas. From that point on the pressures of one area are immaterial to the new points of contact.

AtomicHorror

Deleted User wrote: »

Totally see what you are saying and it makes total sense for everyone but the Borg.

They should have an exponential growth. The more they conquer the faster they get as each system assimilated grows the collective.
They are more like a viral pandemic. Each infected moves on to infect more, who in-turn can infect even more, especially with the transwarp jump points bypassing growth pressures/inhibition to the rear (previously assimilated areas)

Ha basically airports in a pandemic. Infections will spread slowly enough until you introduce rapid travel to multiple previously distant areas. From that point on the pressures of one area are immaterial to the new points of contact.

I agree that they should have exponential growth, but there's plenty of room for them to have such growth in our galaxy without having fully assimilated the Milky Way on the timescale of centuries. If they did it in 10,000 years they'd still be a full order of magnitude faster than an army of nerds capable of jumping from system to system in mere minutes.

As an aside, even viruses have limits when it comes to exponential growth. They frequently overstretch themselves, they often run up against species capable of halting them and they typically need more than one infective particle to reach a host in order to have a good probability of successful infection.

The Borg may well have been kept in check for decades or centuries by a range of once-superior species they've since assimilated. We happen to have witnessed them encounter a couple of real challenges, Species 8472 and the Federation, but over the course of their history there must have been others, if not necessarily as formidable as them.

AtomicHorror

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I agree that they should have exponential growth, but there's plenty of room for them to have such growth in our galaxy without having fully assimilated the Milky Way on the timescale of centuries. If they did it in 10,000 years they'd still be a full order of magnitude faster than an army of nerds capable of jumping from system to system in mere minutes.

As an aside, even viruses have limits when it comes to exponential growth. They frequently overstretch themselves, they often run up against species capable of halting them and they typically need more than one infective particle to reach a host in order to have a good probability of successful infection.

The Borg may well have been kept in check for decades or centuries by a range of once-superior species they've since assimilated. We happen to have witnessed them encounter a couple of real challenges, Species 8472 and the Federation, but over the course of their history there must have been others, if not necessarily as formidable as them.

Totally agree just that it is the inconsistencies in their travel ability and assimilation that kills it, for me.
They should never have had traspwarp hubs. There should be pockets of Borg everywhere otherwise

Viruses overstretch in certain areas which slows them down, and Borg are a new-ish race. But it's the addition of god like ability to reach across the galaxy which SHOULD completely OP them.

GSPfan

The Borg.... they are brilliant but flawed.

Even the little things about them don’t make sense like being able to walk among them as long as they don’t see you as a threat. If I’m Borg and I’m going about my duties and i see two randomer humans walking around the ship then I see no reason why I wouldn’t take 20 seconds to add them to the collective to aid in the ultimate goal.

Every species has been chopped and changed over time so I can’t really single the Borg out as being the only one.

Stargate did their own version of the Borg with the Replicators. They were fantastic. The evolution of their form from bug like toy robots to human form was done very well.

Col Jack ONeill

GSPfan wrote: »

The Borg.... they are brilliant but flawed.

Even the little things about them don’t make sense like being able to walk among them as long as they don’t see you as a threat. If I’m Borg and I’m going about my duties and i see two randomer humans walking around the ship then I see no reason why I wouldn’t take 20 seconds to add them to the collective to aid in the ultimate goal.

Every species has been chopped and changed over time so I can’t really single the Borg out as being the only one.

Stargate did their own version of the Borg with the Replicators. They were fantastic. The evolution of their form from bug like toy robots to human form was done very well.

Agreed loved the replicators. But only the Milky way ones, they really jumped the gun with the Pegasus versions

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Why are cubes slowly making their way to Earth when a simple drop out of TW at Sol would work.
Voyager simultaneously made the Borg terrifyingly strong AND insanely weak at the same time.

Earth isn't necessarily their end goal though. Sure assimilating Earth would probably fracture the Federation and weaken the Alpha Quadrant as a whole making it easier to assimilate but the Borg can play the long game and nip away at the edges until they're ready to strike again. Plodding along and assimilating along they way seems like a much better use of their resources.

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

Even the little things about them don’t make sense like being able to walk among them as long as they don’t see you as a threat. If I’m Borg and I’m going about my duties and i see two randomer humans walking around the ship then I see no reason why I wouldn’t take 20 seconds to add them to the collective to aid in the ultimate goal.

Because while you're doing that you're not doing your primary function. That could be sweeping the deck or making sure the transwarp drive doesn't explode.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Earth isn't necessarily their end goal though. Sure assimilating Earth would probably fracture the Federation and weaken the Alpha Quadrant as a whole making it easier to assimilate but the Borg can play the long game and nip away at the edges until they're ready to strike again. Plodding along and assimilating along they way seems like a much better use of their resources.

2 cubes were sent to sector 001. None to any other area of "known space"
Earth was their target there.
Now in Voyager: Endgame we see that there is a hub termination point IN the Sol system?? Three cubes, several hours, Sol assimilated.

GSPfan

Col Jack ONeill wrote: »

Agreed loved the replicators. But only the Milky way ones, they really jumped the gun with the Pegasus versions

Stargate Universe introduced the Drones and I was furious we never got to see that play out as they got cancelled right as it was getting started. The Drones were very basic, they only attacked superior technology if I remember correctly. I liked how simplistic that idea was, that their creators gave them one goal and they stuck to it. It was brilliant how relentless they were, if they detected you they chased you down instantly and destroyed you. No messing about.

GSPfan

Evade wrote: »

Because while you're doing that you're not doing your primary function. That could be sweeping the deck or making sure the transwarp drive doesn't explode.

Meh. Their primary function is to assimilate.

If I’m a Borg tasked with sweeping the deck and i see two humans who can sweep the deck with me and all i have to do is inject them in the neck and stick a bit of tech on their face then I reckon I should get a promotion or at least awarded Drone of the Month. That deck would be spotless in a third of the time.

Rawr

Deleted User wrote: »

2 cubes were sent to sector 001. None to any other area of "known space"
Earth was their target there.
Now in Voyager: Endgame we see that there is a hub termination point IN the Sol system?? Three cubes, several hours, Sol assimilated.

That did erk me a bit. But then again, this was Voyager Borg we were talking about and they were a massive downgrade to classic TNG Borg.

These were the very same Borg who apparently "let" Seven of Nine leave them as part of a cunning plan to make her...."unique"....and then didn't really follow up on that plan...becuase reasons. The very same Borg who couldn't stop a goofy modified shuttlecraft crash in and out of the Borg Capital.

Hell...if the Voyager Borg Queen had sent 3 cubes over to Sol...two of them would crash into each other while chasing an Oberth Class (and failing to destroy it) and the last one would reach Earth...only to be destroyed by "uniqueness" or something silly along those lines....

AtomicHorror

Voyager ruined the Borg.

If they ever bring them back into Trek, it needs to be handled with incredible care. And there would have to be a real and visceral cost. Think of their first story- the Enterprise survived solely because Picard threw his dignity away and literally begged Q to save them. They survived their second encounter only after Picard was abandoned as dead and the crew happened to have their own sentient machine to network with the Borg.

As for them ignoring people (and by extension, failing to assimilate any place they visit)- I liked that. Sometimes, for all your noise and arrogance you're simply beneath their attention. Not even that- they pass by like a tornado missing one house but annihilating another.

And that's part of what made them frightening for me- the Borg at their best were nothing less than a force of nature. No humanity- no vindictiveness or cruelty as such- but also no pity or remorse. If they appear, you either survive by a hairs breath or you don't survive.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

2 cubes were sent to sector 001. None to any other area of "known space"

Except the Neutral Zone and that colony from Best of Both Worlds.

Deleted User wrote: »

Earth was their target there.

In that case sure. They obviously thought it was worth risking a cube in both of those instances.

Deleted User wrote: »

Now in Voyager: Endgame we see that there is a hub termination point IN the Sol system?? Three cubes, several hours, Sol assimilated.

Yeah, the battle hardened Dominion War Veterans now manning pretty much every Starfleet ship sure would be pushovers along with the fact that there seems to be a Sol Defence Fleet by the time endgame takes place.

GSPfan wrote: »

Meh. Their primary function is to assimilate.

If I’m a Borg tasked with sweeping the deck and i see two humans who can sweep the deck with me and all i have to do is inject them in the neck and stick a bit of tech on their face then I reckon I should get a promotion or at least awarded Drone of the Month. That deck would be spotless in a third of the time.

But that's not how the Borg operate. You don't have free will, you have an assigned task and do it.

Rawr

AtomicHorror wrote: »

the Borg at their best were nothing less than a force of nature.

Hammer with nail there...that's what I loved about TNG Borg too. You just don't reason with a force of nature, and that made them all the more terrifying.

Alas, the Borg Queen sort of killed that. Then with Voyager she gradually became a Cartoon Villianess with her robo-henchmen.

"Curse you Janeway! I'll get you next time! NEXT TIME!!! Mu HA HAHAH!"

pixelburp

The problem ultimately with the Borg is the same you get with a character like Superman; both are literally meant to be all-powerful or unstoppable - that's the key pillar of the concept - yet to have any kind of stakes or drama you have to be able to contrive some disability, otherwise there's no story. In the case of The Borg, unless the protagonists have some way to stop them, to at least cripple or avoid their attentions, assimilation goes unhalted. End of show.

It's the contradiction about how the very concept is both its own greatest strength and weakness at the same time: the Borg are meant to be unstoppable, but they can't actually be unstoppable or else there's no story. It's a difficult circle to square.

CramCycle

The Borg were great when they were unstoppable but unable to think outside of their own programming, like waves against a cliff, they would always win, but human ingenuity could work around it, slow it, catch it out, find an alternative solution. Once they started giving the collective personality, that was the end of it. I still loved first contact but that was the death knell for the Borg.

GreeBo

GSPfan wrote: »

The Borg.... they are brilliant but flawed.

Even the little things about them don’t make sense like being able to walk among them as long as they don’t see you as a threat. If I’m Borg and I’m going about my duties and i see two randomer humans walking around the ship then I see no reason why I wouldn’t take 20 seconds to add them to the collective to aid in the ultimate goal.

Do you frequently stop throughout your day to kill insects?

Johnny Storm

CramCycle wrote: »

The Borg were great when they were unstoppable but unable to think outside of their own programming, like waves against a cliff, they would always win, but human ingenuity could work around it, slow it, catch it out, find an alternative solution. Once they started giving the collective personality, that was the end of it. I still loved first contact but that was the death knell for the Borg.

There was a lot to like about First Contact but it did reduce the Borg to high-tech zombies....
I enjoyed the Borg Queen, though - "How was that for you, Data? "

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Except the Neutral Zone and that colony from Best of Both Worlds.

Never shown, could have been any (latter confirmed Borg) ship. and a massive oversight due to the writers strike, so could give a pass there

Evade wrote: »

In that case sure. They obviously thought it was worth risking a cube in both of those instances.

So not worth 2 or 3 cubes together to finish the job? They have cubes to spare.

Evade wrote: »

Yeah, the battle hardened Dominion War Veterans now manning pretty much every Starfleet ship sure would be pushovers along with the fact that there seems to be a Sol Defence Fleet by the time endgame takes place.

They, as usual in Trek, scrambled to gather a resistance force at the heart of the Federation.
All those ships would have struggled against one cube, what about 2/3/4/5? Just say the amount of cubes initially following Voyager through the hub?

Stark

The only thing that could make sense for me with the Borg was that they were toying with the Federation, sending single cubes every few years to spur the Federation into putting more resources into R&D. Then when it looks like the Federation had become an actual threat, send a swarm of cubes to finish the job. Like they did with Arturis (quantum slipsteam drive guy)'s race in Voyager. Of course Voyager managed to contradict this theory by having the Borg Queen admit to Seven of Nine that humanity was too smart for them. Of course this could just be bull****ting on the Queen's part. For example, she suggested deploying a nanoprobe virus which they could have done easily but never actually did.

pixelburp

CramCycle wrote: »

The Borg were great when they were unstoppable but unable to think outside of their own programming, like waves against a cliff, they would always win, but human ingenuity could work around it, slow it, catch it out, find an alternative solution. Once they started giving the collective personality, that was the end of it. I still loved first contact but that was the death knell for the Borg.

And then it becomes more like the 'unknowable' force, which kinda contradicts dramatic fiction where most concepts or antagonists can be knowable, or at least presented in terms that are relatable to human experience. It's not that surprising that writers eventually tried to 'humanise' The Borg, because I can see how you'd quickly run out of ways to write about an inherently blank, non-entity of an enemy (similar to how zombies are so played out simply because there's only so many ways you can use them as a mirror of humanity)

That's not meant as a criticism of the Borg - they remain one of the quintessentially creepy and effective monsters in all of SciFi - but they were a victim of their own success and like their close cousins, Dr. Who's Cybermen, they lost that shock value by dint of being overused

GSPfan

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you frequently stop throughout your day to kill insects?

Yes. Every last one of them. Resistance is futile.

Stark

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you frequently stop throughout your day to kill insects?

Well I would imagine the scenario of humans walking around inside a Borg ship to be more analogous to a foreign body entering an organism. You would expect the immune system to react to the foreign body even if it's not obviously a threat (yeah, take that, pollen).

AtomicHorror

Stark wrote: »

Well I would imagine the scenario of humans walking around inside a Borg ship to be more analogous to a foreign body entering an organism. You would expect the immune system to react to the foreign body even if it's not obviously a threat (yeah, take that, pollen).

Your analogy is a pretty good argument against them reacting to every "infection". Allergic type reactions are not universal and are at best an annoying waste of energy, at worst they can be fatal.

Going by the immunity analogy, it would make sense for a Borg cube to ignore new visitors unless they start to cause meaningful damage (as happens in human innate responses), or at least have been previously known to do so (as happens in our adaptive responses).

Our immune systems have evolved to have as many mechanisms to prevent them from activating as they have to trigger a response, for the simple reason that they are very dangerous. There are plenty of auto-immune diseases as evidence of that!

liamtech

Sorry Wrong thread!@ lol

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Never shown, could have been any (latter confirmed Borg) ship. and a massive oversight due to the writers strike, so could give a pass there

This is getting very close to people in Star Trek don't use the bathroom because we never see them use one territory.

Deleted User wrote: »

So not worth 2 or 3 cubes together to finish the job? They have cubes to spare.

They are essentially fighting a war on hundreds of fronts so if they have a spare cube why not lob it at Earth if they think they have a chance of winning. The extra cubes could be needed elsewhere.

Deleted User wrote: »

They, as usual in Trek, scrambled to gather a resistance force at the heart of the Federation.
All those ships would have struggled against one cube, what about 2/3/4/5? Just say the amount of cubes initially following Voyager through the hub?

18 ships with 9 more on the way at the drop of a hat is not exactly a scramble. I think they'd stand a pretty good chance against the Borg because the shields, and possibly the weapons, on Starfleet ships have been significantly improved since the last time the Borg faced the Federation.

AMKC

GSPfan wrote: »

The Borg.... they are brilliant but flawed.

Even the little things about them don’t make sense like being able to walk among them as long as they don’t see you as a threat. If I’m Borg and I’m going about my duties and i see two randomer humans walking around the ship then I see no reason why I wouldn’t take 20 seconds to add them to the collective to aid in the ultimate goal.

Every species has been chopped and changed over time so I can’t really single the Borg out as being the only one.

Stargate did their own version of the Borg with the Replicators. They were fantastic. The evolution of their form from bug like toy robots to human form was done very well.

If I’m Borg and I’m going about my duties and i see two randomer humans walking around the ship then I see no reason why I wouldn’t take 20 seconds to add them to the collective to aid in the ultimate goal.

I would say its because of resources. The Borg only assimilate if you have new technology that they do not have or if they think you are intelligent and can add to the collective. No point in them assimilating a race that is going to cost them resources and not add anything to the collective.
The Kazon being one example. The Borg totally ignored them as they said they were not intelligent.

CramCycle

There is also the issue of what they used to be like, assigned duties by the collective, they were not ignoring people, simply feeding back their presence to the collective, feeding it back to billions looking for a response. This is why they appeared not to react.