Yellow-box junction with a white "right-turn box" preceding it

zepman

Hi there,

There's a junction in my practice route that has a yellow box as well as a white box just before the yellow box. Here's a picture from the street view -



There's a pedestrian crossing area and what looks like a cycle bay (the road markings are worn) before the white box.

I am not sure about the rules for making a right turn at a junction like this. Two scenarios -

1) Whenever I have been the first car in the queue at the junction, I've always moved up into the yellow box upon getting a solid green light. Is this correct, or is the white box the waiting area for the first car in the queue?

2) Yesterday, I was second in the queue here. Once the light turned solid green, the first car moved up into the yellow box. I moved up a bit but stayed behind the first white line before the cycle bay. Should I have moved up into that white box in this situation?

Alanstrainor

You should move up and stop in the turning box with the arrow (not the yellow box) when the lights go green. Wait for the filter or a break in traffic and proceed. This is a terribly designed junction, and is non-standard in my opinion.

If there is someone in front of you making the turn, I would think that they would use this junction incorrectly and stop in the yellow box well in front of the turning box. I would then wait in the turning box until the lights turn in your favour. Although I would confirm this with your instructor.

Dravokivich

In the test, you are expected to follow the road markings ahead of you. Use the turning box. That's what should activate the filter light. If there was no turning box, you can use the yellow box, to wait for an opportunity to turn right, once it doesn't impede anyone else.

Test or no test, I'd use the turning box, as that's what it's there for.

GrumpyMe

I'd agree with previous comment as to the poor design and liaising with your instructor.

As per RotR -

A turning box...
This shows where to position a vehicle if you want to take a right turn. Do not proceed into the box through a red light.
If oncoming traffic means you cannot take a right turn immediately, you must wait in the box until you can safely take the turn.
(It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.)

So "rules" say you must use it other than when you can turn immediately. So if you have a full green and no oncoming traffic [and I would add, room to enter the left lane of the road on the right] you can ignore the turning box and turn. Otherwise, use the box.
All turning boxes have induction loops which detect substantial vehicles and so trigger a right filter arrow in time. It may not work for cycles!!!
This means you WILL get an opportunity to turn on the filter by waiting in the box, if not beforehand. Usually it will allow more than one vehicle to filer right turn.

J_R

Hi,

when I was an instructor I used to advise my pupils to ignore white boxes completely, instead follow the rules and common sense.

My advice, when turning right, irrespective of white, yellow or no box whatsoever, if first car in line and blocked by oncoming traffic and exit clear, to drive straight into the junction, and position the car with the front of the car level with the white line of the road they were turning into. Ensuring to leave a clear path for the oncoming traffic that is going straight through to pass to their right. If any turning right then make eye contact etc etc.

This means they would now have the shortest distance to travel when clear. which will allow them to avail of a smaller gap in the oncoming traffic. Further back, greater distance required.

Reason for the above advice. I knew of two white boxes incorrectly placed, one dangerously so. Also never found any government rules, regulations or even guidance on white boxes. To me, total mystery where or how they originated.

Re. OP. If 1st in line turning right, provided the road you were turning into was clear, as above. If 2nd in line I would follow the first car in, there appears no danger that you would block oncoming traffic. Note, when your lights go red, the other lights do not go green for three seconds plus green does not signal GO, it says go - if - clear. So you will have time to clear, if not you should be allowed to clear.

However if I was an instructor in that area I would have a chat with the RSA supervisor regarding that junction. Just to be sure to be sure.

J_R

GrumpyMe wrote: »

I'd agree with previous comment as to the poor design and liaising with your instructor.

As per RotR -

A turning box...
This shows where to position a vehicle if you want to take a right turn. Do not proceed into the box through a red light.
If oncoming traffic means you cannot take a right turn immediately, you must wait in the box until you can safely take the turn.
(It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.)

So "rules" say you must use it other than when you can turn immediately. So if you have a full green and no oncoming traffic [and I would add, room to enter the left lane of the road on the right] you can ignore the turning box and turn. Otherwise, use the box.
All turning boxes have induction loops which detect substantial vehicles and so trigger a right filter arrow in time. It may not work for cycles!!!
This means you WILL get an opportunity to turn on the filter by waiting in the box, if not beforehand. Usually it will allow more than one vehicle to filer right turn.

Hi,

Stand corrected. This new since I retired. Sneaking:o away

J_R

Hi,

Now that have seen the info re white boxes. The above rectangle is not a "Turning Right" box as the definition of such box is

A turning box showing a white arrow in a white edged box, found at junctions controlled by traffic light

And it is positioned very badly for right turns

So definitely have a chat with an instructor if on a test route

zepman

Thanks, everyone for your replies!

I got a chance to ask my instructor about this only yesterday. He said that I should move into the yellow box upon getting a solid green if I'm the first in the queue. But he added that in the test, it might be better to only roll up and wait in the white box.

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Now that have seen the info re white boxes. The above rectangle is not a "Turning Right" box as the definition of such box is

A turning box showing a white arrow in a white edged box, found at junctions controlled by traffic light

And it is positioned very badly for right turns

That's exactly it. From the Rules of the Road, I am aware of the rules regarding the white turning boxes. But as you said, the one in this junction is different from what is shown in the picture in the Rules book. This one has a broken white border, and more importantly, it is positioned before the junction. It is definitely a long distance to cover if waiting for a gap by staying in this box.

Luckily, the junction is only on my way back home from practice and there's no chance of it being on the test route (too far). But just in terms of knowing how to deal with it in regular driving, it's confusing.

GrumpyMe wrote: »

All turning boxes have induction loops which detect substantial vehicles and so trigger a right filter arrow in time. It may not work for cycles!!!
This means you WILL get an opportunity to turn on the filter by waiting in the box, if not beforehand. Usually it will allow more than one vehicle to filer right turn.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Use the turning box. That's what should activate the filter light.

Yeah, taking a closer look at the road in the street view, I can see the loop sealant markings inside the white box. So I will wait in the white box the next time I'm at the junction and see if it works better.

J_R

zepman wrote: »

Thanks, everyone for your replies!

I got a chance to ask my instructor about this only yesterday. He said that I should move into the yellow box upon getting a solid green if I'm the first in the queue. But he added that in the test, it might be better to only roll up and wait in the white box.



That's exactly it. From the Rules of the Road, I am aware of the rules regarding the white turning boxes. But as you said, the one in this junction is different from what is shown in the picture in the Rules book. This one has a broken white border, and more importantly, it is positioned before the junction. It is definitely a long distance to cover if waiting for a gap by staying in this box.

Luckily, the junction is only on my way back home from practice and there's no chance of it being on the test route (too far). But just in terms of knowing how to deal with it in regular driving, it's confusing.






Yeah, taking a closer look at the road in the street view, I can see the loop sealant markings inside the white box. So I will wait in the white box the next time I'm at the junction and see if it works better.

Hi,

If I was turning right and was behind a car who only moved forward and stopped in that box, I would be a little annoyed. If safe, I would overtake and stop in the centre of the junction.

I used to tell my pupils that all rules regarding driving were based on common sense and all could be explained with a reasoned explanation. However I would add, except speed zones, speed ramps and the the placing of some road markings and signs. These I would explain were controlled by politicians or political appointees.

That box does not make any sense. Perhaps it is for cars making U-turns ?

Write to the council ??

fritzelly

I'm confused by that layout and been driving for 30 years
There is some distance to go if you stay in the turning box to take a right turn by which time the lights change and you're still gonna be stuck in the yellow box (is that what happened with the red car?)
As JR said badly positioned for right turns - should be in the middle of the yellow box

Can you give a Google maps link to the junction?

zepman

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm confused by that layout and been driving for 30 years
There is some distance to go if you stay in the turning box to take a right turn by which time the lights change and you're still gonna be stuck in the yellow box (is that what happened with the red car?)
As JR said badly positioned for right turns - should be in the middle of the yellow box

Can you give a Google maps link to the junction?

The link is in my first post just before the picture ("street view").

The picture is from the street view and it looks like the green filter light is on for turning right. So the red car is actually making the turn there.

Isambard

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

If I was turning right and was behind a car who only moved forward and stopped in that box, I would be a little annoyed. If safe, I would overtake and stop in the centre of the junction.

I used to tell my pupils that all rules regarding driving were based on common sense and all could be explained with a reasoned explanation. However I would add, except speed zones, speed ramps and the the placing of some road markings and signs. These I would explain were controlled by politicians or political appointees.

That box does not make any sense. Perhaps it is for cars making U-turns ?

Write to the council ??

Yes I would have felt the same until I read the explanation here. If you pull past the box, the lights don't know there's a car waiting and won't trigger the filter lights. It makes sense but should get more publicity. I wouldn't have known about that before this thread.

mikeymouse

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm confused by that layout and been driving for 30 years
There is some distance to go if you stay in the turning box to take a right turn by which time the lights change and you're still gonna be stuck in the yellow box (is that what happened with the red car?)
As JR said badly positioned for right turns - should be in the middle of the yellow box

Can you give a Google maps link to the junction?

No, the red car had a green filter ,and was on it's way,
looks like the Skoda did a U turn at the lights!!
here's the link ;(just off jn. 4 M50), R108 junction with Santry road,R104

Marcusm

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

If I was turning right and was behind a car who only moved forward and stopped in that box, I would be a little annoyed. If safe, I would overtake and stop in the centre of the junction.

I used to tell my pupils that all rules regarding driving were based on common sense and all could be explained with a reasoned explanation. However I would add, except speed zones, speed ramps and the the placing of some road markings and signs. These I would explain were controlled by politicians or political appointees.

That box does not make any sense. Perhaps it is for cars making U-turns ?

Write to the council ??

So, to summarise, as a former “professional” driver you would make a dangerous, unlawful manoeuvre (passing on left) to interfere with someone acting within the rules? No really the type of thing to be advocating in a “Learning to Drive” forum. It doesn’t assist anyone.

mikeymouse

Marcusm wrote: »

So, to summarise, as a former “professional” driver you would make a dangerous, unlawful manoeuvre (passing on left) to interfere with someone acting within the rules? No really the type of thing to be advocating in a “Learning to Drive” forum. It doesn’t assist anyone.

I think this junction is 'left side to left side' for right turners

Isambard

mikeymouse wrote: »

I think this junction is 'left side to left side' for right turners

that's not what he meant.

Wishbone Ash

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm confused by that layout and been driving for 30 years
There is some distance to go if you stay in the turning box to take a right turn by which time the lights change and you're still gonna be stuck in the yellow box...

There is an inductive loop in the white box. If you pass it without stopping, the right turn green arrow won't activate.

J_R

Marcusm wrote: »

So, to summarise, as a former “professional” driver you would make a dangerous, unlawful manoeuvre (passing on left) to interfere with someone acting within the rules? No really the type of thing to be advocating in a “Learning to Drive” forum. It doesn’t assist anyone.

Hi,

Explain "unlawful manoeuvre", but first familiarise yourself with the Rules of the Road in particular when it is legal to undertake on the left.

Marcusm

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Explain "unlawful manoeuvre", but first familiarise yourself with the Rules of the Road in particular when it is legal to undertake on the left.

There is no such thing as undertaking on the left. It’s still an overtaking manoeuvre and you described doing so to turn right. You cannot do that. You can pass someone on the left when in multi lane traffic moving slowly or when someone is turning right and you are carrying on straight. You described getting frustrated with someone not making progress while you queued behind him to turn right. What you described was a dangerous manoeuvre.

J_R

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

There is an inductive loop in the white box. If you pass it without stopping, the right turn green arrow won't activate.

Hi,

no I think it is unnecessary to stop. As a car drives over, the coil senses the change in the electro- magnetic field and this will trigger the light. If a car sits stationary they will be no extra change, only the change as it arrives and leaves.

My beef with the box is its position. It should be in the junction. There can not be exceptions to the general rule that right turning cars proceed into the junction and await a clearance. (If they can not clear it immediately)

J_R

Marcusm wrote: »

There is no such thing as undertaking on the left. It’s still an overtaking manoeuvre and you described doing so to turn right. You cannot do that. You can pass someone on the left when in multi lane traffic moving slowly or when someone is turning right and you are carrying on straight. You described getting frustrated with someone not making progress while you queued behind him to turn right. What you described was a dangerous manoeuvre.

I would assume that a car sitting in that box was waiting to make a U-Turn, and I did say "If SAFE" I would undertake. As for legality he is turning right I am continuing straight, then turning right

Marcusm

J_R wrote: »

I would assume that a car sitting in that box was waiting to make a U-Turn, and I did say "If SAFE" I would undertake. As for legality he is turning right I am continuing straight, then turning right

Irrespective of whether he is making a u-turn or taking the road to the right, the manoeuvre you describe is downright dangerous. Did you say you were a driving instructor? Surely you would advusectisk based decisions, ie assume he is moving in the direction he is indicating not assume a u-turn. Christ on a bike.

Wishbone Ash

Marcusm wrote:

.... the manoeuvre you describe is downright dangerous.....

Leaving aside whether it is right or wrong, how is it 'downright dangerous'. Did you miss the bit about 'if safe to do so'.

J_R

Marcusm wrote: »

Irrespective of whether he is making a u-turn or taking the road to the right, the manoeuvre you describe is downright dangerous. Did you say you were a driving instructor? Surely you would advusectisk based decisions, ie assume he is moving in the direction he is indicating not assume a u-turn. Christ on a bike.

Hi,

I do not think very much of your driving ability if you believe it is downright dangerous to undertake (or overtake) a stationary vehicle in a junction.

Perhaps if you work on your observational skills it may give you the confidence to perform such a manoeuvre safely.

Dravokivich

J_R wrote: »

I would assume that a car sitting in that box was waiting to make a U-Turn, and I did say "If SAFE" I would undertake. As for legality he is turning right I am continuing straight, then turning right

You aren't continuing straight. You are just plonking yourself in front of someone, who is waiting for an opportunity to turn right. It doesn't matter how far right they intend to go.

J_R

Dravokivich wrote: »

You aren't continuing straight. You are just plonking yourself in front of someone, who is waiting for an opportunity to turn right. It doesn't matter how far right they intend to go.

Hi,

So ?. First opportunity I will be gone. I will not delay him/her for a micro-second.

Dravokivich

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

So ?. First opportunity I will be gone. I will not delay him/her for a micro-second.

You have delayed them by jumping the queue.

J_R

Dravokivich wrote: »

You have delayed them by jumping the queue.

Hi,

What queue ? He is queuing in the wrong place. As I will have less than half the distance to clear the junction compared to him, I can avail of a smaller gap in traffic to safely continue. I could be several kilometres down the road before he gets an opportunity to go.

J_R

Hi,

I believe that white boxes were introduced to encourage motorists to move up into the junction.

Putting it back almost at the traffic light white line is a retro step

Dravokivich

There's too many bespoke junctions to make such a simple argument. When driving, opinions should be left outside. We should all be driving to a simple set of expectations. Pushing yourself about and interfering with others, is not the way to go about it. Then to endorse it, through instruction? Come on..

Marcusm

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

I do not think very much of your driving ability if you believe it is downright dangerous to undertake (or overtake) a stationary vehicle in a junction.

Perhaps if you work on your observational skills it may give you the confidence to perform such a manoeuvre safely.

You said pass on the left then pull in front of him and turn in the direction he has signalled to turn. If you cannot see why that is dangerous then I am glad you are no longer a driving instructor. As regards the law, it is contrary to the 10 of http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print#article10

Marcusm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Leaving aside whether it is right or wrong, how is it 'downright dangerous'. Did you miss the bit about 'if safe to do so'.

How can he know or judge the safety of it? A person is signalling to turn right. The road immediately in front of him is empty and he is waiting for the traffic to clear in the opposite direction when suddenly a car pulls into that space from a direction from which he should not come. If you cannot see how that might cause alarm or necessitate an emergency stop (if the motorist moved simultaneously with the miscreant) then you are being disingenuous.

Alanstrainor

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

no I think it is unnecessary to stop. As a car drives over, the coil senses the change in the electro- magnetic field and this will trigger the light. If a car sits stationary they will be no extra change, only the change as it arrives and leaves.

My beef with the box is its position. It should be in the junction. There can not be exceptions to the general rule that right turning cars proceed into the junction and await a clearance. (If they can not clear it immediately)

In my experience this is not always correct. Just to state the obvious, the idea is that if a car is in the box, then there is at least one car waiting to turn at the junction and thus the filter light must turn on to clear the junction. However, I've found that in some junctions if you pass the sensor then the assumption is that you have cleared the junction and the filter does not turn on.

These discussions are always interesting, because the junction is awfully designed. If it was standard the turning box would be much further forward...

You know what, I've just found out how this has happened. A good feature of google street view is that you can rewind time and look at sections of road from the past. You can go back as far as 2009 in this case, where there was no turning box, but the junction was otherwise the same. I would have to presume that this junction was causing problems with right turning cars getting stuck in the middle of the yellow box when waiting to turn. And the turning box was put in later.

So I would still contest that you should wait in the box until it is safe to turn.

J_R

Dravokivich wrote: »

There's too many bespoke junctions to make such a simple argument. When driving, opinions should be left outside. We should all be driving to a simple set of expectations. Pushing yourself about and interfering with others, is not the way to go about it. Then to endorse it, through instruction? Come on..

Hi,


I do not understand, what opinion ?

I merely taught the correct proper safe method to turn right at a traffic light controlled junction. Which was to move into the junction, if possible, position the front of the car level with the centre of the road that they were turning into, then sit and wait for a clear opportunity

Adding a proviso or two. For example some junctions are a bit skewed so ensure the oncoming traffic have a clear line when taking up your waiting position.

More or less following the RoTR

If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right
(or white rectangular box with white arrow), drive into the junction when you
see a green light. Take care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is
safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right
when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears.

The advantages of positioning yourself with the front of the car level with the white line

1. You have now reduced the amount of time to the absolute minimum to clear the junction, therefore can safely avail of say a 50% smaller gap than if you remained out of the junction.
2. If there are no traffic lights, by positioning with the front of the car level with the white line you have blocked any car from attempting to dash out from the road you are turning into. Therefore you only have to worry about oncoming traffic.

J_R

Alanstrainor wrote: »

In my experience this is not always correct. Just to state the obvious, the idea is that if a car is in the box, then there is at least one car waiting to turn at the junction and thus the filter light must turn on to clear the junction. However, I've found that in some junctions if you pass the sensor then the assumption is that you have cleared the junction and the filter does not turn on.

These discussions are always interesting, because the junction is awfully designed. If it was standard the turning box would be much further forward...

You know what, I've just found out how this has happened. A good feature of google street view is that you can rewind time and look at sections of road from the past. You can go back as far as 2009 in this case, where there was no turning box, but the junction was otherwise the same. I would have to presume that this junction was causing problems with right turning cars getting stuck in the middle of the yellow box when waiting to turn. And the turning box was put in later.

So I would still contest that you should wait in the box until it is safe to turn.

Hi,

I also used Google. To read about the traffic light sensor. I assumed just one method. That is a continuous current would flow through the coils, any vehicle driving through that field would trigger the lights. If it stopped on the square, the magnetic flux would remain constant, hence no trigger.

But thanks to Google see that another method used is to send timed pulses through the coils. Therefore if a vehicle is stationary it will give a different reading than when box was vacant.

However I would assume that the pulses would be timed fast enough to "catch" a car as it drove across. Next time you are stopped on a box and the green filter light is not activated, move slightly.

In the USA the first method used was a large rubber pad. Driving on it compressed the air in the pad and activated the lights.

Only drawback, if you drove an import like a VW Beetle you had to wait for an american car to arrive as the VW was not heavy enough to compress the rubber

J_R

Alanstrainor wrote: »

In my experience this is not always correct. Just to state the obvious, the idea is that if a car is in the box, then there is at least one car waiting to turn at the junction and thus the filter light must turn on to clear the junction. However, I've found that in some junctions if you pass the sensor then the assumption is that you have cleared the junction and the filter does not turn on.

These discussions are always interesting, because the junction is awfully designed. If it was standard the turning box would be much further forward...

You know what, I've just found out how this has happened. A good feature of google street view is that you can rewind time and look at sections of road from the past. You can go back as far as 2009 in this case, where there was no turning box, but the junction was otherwise the same. I would have to presume that this junction was causing problems with right turning cars getting stuck in the middle of the yellow box when waiting to turn. And the turning box was put in later.

So I would still contest that you should wait in the box until it is safe to turn.

Hi,
Then a simple solution would have been to increase the timing of the filter light.

Would be very interesting to watch a live street camera view of that junction.

Alanstrainor

J_R wrote: »

Hi,
Then a simple solution would have been to increase the timing of the filter light.

Would be very interesting to watch a live street camera view of that junction.

Ah, but simple solutions aren't always what the council wants!

zepman

I passed my test this morning. Had taken the day off work, so I decided to go to the NDLS to submit the application for the full licence in the afternoon.

After getting off the bus (yeah, still on a learner permit until I receive the full licence ), I noticed the following (street view here).



Again, white boxes and a yellow box together. Looking at this junction, I don't think the white boxes are for U-turns.

J_R

zepman wrote: »

I passed my test this morning. Had taken the day off work, so I decided to go to the NDLS to submit the application for the full licence in the afternoon.

After getting off the bus (yeah, still on a learner permit until I receive the full licence ), I noticed the following (street view here).



Again, white boxes and a yellow box together. Looking at this junction, I don't think the white boxes are for U-turns.

Hi,
Congratulations on passing. Seems that the Dublin engineer in charge of road markings should be given a copy of the RoTR. with paragraph saying that You may the enter the yellow box if turning right highlighted in Yellow

J_R

Marcusm wrote: »

How can he know or judge the safety of it? A person is signalling to turn right. The road immediately in front of him is empty and he is waiting for the traffic to clear in the opposite direction when suddenly a car pulls into that space from a direction from which he should not come. If you cannot see how that might cause alarm or necessitate an emergency stop (if the motorist moved simultaneously with the miscreant) then you are being disingenuous.

Hi,

It would not take a very competent driver to safely overtake a stationary car and pull in a few car lengths ahead. He would of course be anticipating that the stationary car may take the hint and decide to move into the correct position for turning right. And being the competent safe polite driver that he is he would slow even further and drop in behind the other car. No problem whatsoever. Emergency stop :eek:

GrumpyMe

J_R wrote: »

Hi,
Congratulations on passing. Seems that the Dublin engineer in charge of road markings should be given a copy of the RoTR. with paragraph saying that You may the enter the yellow box if turning right highlighted in Yellow

The engineer may just return it to you with the paragraph below highlighted

GrumpyMe wrote: »

As per RotR -
A turning box...
This shows where to position a vehicle if you want to take a right turn. Do not proceed into the box through a red light.
If oncoming traffic means you cannot take a right turn immediately, you must wait in the box until you can safely take the turn.
(It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.)

Dravokivich

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

It would not take a very competent driver to safely overtake a stationary car and pull in a few car lengths ahead. He would of course be anticipating that the stationary car may take the hint and decide to move into the correct position for turning right. And being the competent safe polite driver that he is he would slow even further and drop in behind the other car. No problem whatsoever. Emergency stop :eek:

If you were to do that, at either of the 2 junctions shown, you'd have overshot the mark, you claim the hinderance should be in.

osarusan

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

It would not take a very competent driver to safely overtake a stationary car and pull in a few car lengths ahead. He would of course be anticipating that the stationary car may take the hint and decide to move into the correct position for turning right. And being the competent safe polite driver that he is he would slow even further and drop in behind the other car. No problem whatsoever. Emergency stop :eek:

Imagine there is a car waiting in the white box for the road to clear so they could turn right (or else for the filter light to come on).

And imagine there is a driver of another car who also wanted to turn right and decided to pass on the left before moving over to the right and coming to a stop in the yellow box.

And finally, imagine that the driver of the car waiting in the white box was to spot a gap in traffic and move forward at the same time as the car behind decided to pass on the left and move over to the right, and they have side-to-side scrape.

Where do you think the fault would lie?

FishOnABike

osarusan wrote: »

Imagine there is a car waiting in the white box for the road to clear so they could turn right (or else for the filter light to come on).

And imagine there is a driver of another car who also wanted to turn right and decided to pass on the left before moving over to the right and coming to a stop in the yellow box.

And finally, imagine that the driver of the car waiting in the white box was to spot a gap in traffic and move forward at the same time as the car behind decided to pass on the left and move over to the right, and they have side-to-side scrape.

Where do you think the fault would lie?

The vehicle that changed lane when it was unsafe to do so.

Dravokivich

FishOnABike wrote: »

The vehicle that changed lane when it was unsafe to do so.

They are both changing lanes, while unsafe for both of them to do so.

osarusan

Dravokivich wrote: »

They are both changing lanes, while unsafe for both of them to do so.

I think that's debatable to be honest. Perhaps you could argue that the driver in the white box should be considering the possibility of somebody overtaking on the left before pulling over to the right in front of them, but I think the bulk of the fault, or maybe all of it, would lie with the car which was overtaking on the left and then pulling over to the right.

Dravokivich

I was challenging FishOnABike's rather simple response. Both are wrong in the scenario for the same reason as their comment. How more wrong one is, over the other and why, is a different matter.

J_R

GrumpyMe wrote: »

The engineer may just return it to you with the paragraph below highlighted

Originally Posted by GrumpyMe View Post
As per RotR -
A turning box...
This shows where to position a vehicle if you want to take a right turn. Do not proceed into the box through a red light.
If oncoming traffic means you cannot take a right turn immediately, you must wait in the box until you can safely take the turn.
(It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.)

Hi,
So ?. And I would request an explanation from the engineer as to why he painted the box in that position, it is contrary to the teaching of the RSA which is

If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right
(or white rectangular box with white arrow), drive into the junction when you see a green light. Take care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears.

These yellow and turning boxes are completely superfluous and a total waste of money. Money that could be better spent on say repairing pot holes.

The only instructions a driver requires to safely turn right at a light controlled crossing is

1. On green, Drive through if clear, and
2. Again on green, If being blocked by oncoming traffic to drive in as far as possible. Ideal spot to stop is just short of your turning point. However taking care not to block any other traffic that has a green light. And that is it, no boxes necessary, yellow, green, blue whatever. Just very basic common sense and it is applicable to all junctions.

Some countries do not go to the expense of painting yellow or white boxes, however if a motorist causes an obstruction in the junction they are charged as if it was a yellow box junction.

GrumpyMe

J_R wrote: »

... Just very basic common sense and it is applicable to all junctions...

If so many drivers can't stop at amber unless unsafe to do so and if so many run reds - I don't think we can rely on common sense. One man's (or woman's) common sense is another's reckless driving.



Teaching by RSA should be clear where a rule, turning box for instance, takes precedence over another. Using my common sense I understand/believe that the turning box takes precedence. The yellow hatching is possibly redundant at the OP's junction for right turning vehicles but like ink on paper, roads never refuse road markings.

J_R

GrumpyMe wrote: »

If so many drivers can't stop at amber unless unsafe to do so and if so many run reds - I don't think we can rely on common sense. One man's (or woman's) common sense is another's reckless driving.



Teaching by RSA should be clear where a rule, turning box for instance, takes precedence over another. Using my common sense I understand/believe that the turning box takes precedence. The yellow hatching is possibly redundant at the OP's junction for right turning vehicles but like ink on paper, roads never refuse road markings.

Hi,

Yes agree with the bolded. They should do a series of adverts.

The yellow box has nothing to do with turning right. It is there to stop traffic tail-gating each other through the junction and then when the lights change causing obstruction to crossing traffic. I always taught my pupils never block any junction, irrespective of markings.

Should be simple matter really to educate people not to enter a junction unless their exit was clear. And also their turning right position. No need for road markings.

Regarding roads accepting markings, many many years ago I sneaked a read of a contract submitted to the council for a road widening project. White line was €11.00 a metre. Do not know if that was normal or not but at the time it sounded an exorbitant figure. Could be one reason for all the unnecessary road markings.

J_R

Hi

From Wikipedia

In Australia, New Zealand and the European Union (excluding Ireland and the United Kingdom), road rules state that every intersection is a box: that is, the driver may not enter any intersection unless there is clear space on the other side, whether it is marked or not. In the EU this also applies to junctions with a minor road within the waiting area of a traffic light on the major road. This is generally respected, though rarely in Germany, but the diagonal grid is still painted on some congested intersections[where?] to remind drivers of the rule and on level crossings where blocking the intersection could cause an accident. The same rule applies at every intersection in Russia.[8]

Several U.S. states have enacted laws intending to decrease gridlock at intersections, railroad crossings, and marked crosswalks which prohibit motorists from entering any of the three until they are certain their vehicle can clear it, as recommended by Uniform Vehicle Code section 11-1112.[9] Examples include California,[10] Florida,[11] and Ohio.[12] No special road markings are used to indicate this rule, but some governments post warning signs to increase awareness of the law at problematic intersections.

But entering a junction to turn right will not cause an obstruction IF you enter the junction fully, leaving excessive distance may.