Putting gate into fence along footpath- PP required?

awec

Imagine that the side of your house was marked by a wooden fence, that went the length of your house and back garden.

On the other side of this fence is a footpath.

Can you replace part of this fence with a gate, therefore making a new entrance to your back garden, without PP?

BryanF

Planning required.

awec

BryanF wrote: »

Planning required.

Likely to be difficult or straightforward?

Generally, what are the considerations here?

Footpath is a footpath in a housing development (cul-de-sac), if that makes a difference.

elperello

Have a look around the estate and others locally for precedent.
Also the kerb will have to be dropped if you want vehicle access.

awec

elperello wrote: »

Have a look around the estate and others locally for precedent.
Also the kerb will have to be dropped if you want vehicle access.

Estate is brand new, doubt anyone has done it.

Don't want vehicle access. Just access for things like bicycles.

Victor

It's likely to be very straightforward, especially if the gate keeps in the style of the fence. Realistically, who would object?

Has the estate been taken in charge by the council? If not, you might need permission from the owner of the path - likely the developer.

awec

Victor wrote: »

It's likely to be very straightforward, especially if the gate keeps in the style of the fence. Realistically, who would object?

Has the estate been taken in charge by the council? If not, you might need permission from the owner of the path - likely the developer.

Right, that's what's in my head, a wooden gate that looks exactly the same as the fence.

Don't think it's been signed over to the council yet. Is it likely to be more difficult if you apply after the fact?

Victor

awec wrote: »

Don't think it's been signed over to the council yet. Is it likely to be more difficult if you apply after the fact?

Twice the fee, but the fee for something like this is going to be modest anyway.

The risk is if you want do something bigger, e.g. a garage or house extension that does need planning permission and they insist that you regularise things before you apply for permission for the garage / house extension

sydthebeat

Victor wrote: »

Twice the fee, but the fee for something like this is going to be modest anyway.

The risk is if you want do something bigger, e.g. a garage or house extension that does need planning permission and they insist that you regularise things before you apply for permission for the garage / house extension

Twice the fee? where does that come into it???

on the gate question, personally i think it would fall into section 4 1 (h) exemption.

(h) development consisting of the carrying out of works for the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of any structure, being works which affect only the interior of the structure or which do not materially affect the external appearance of the structure so as to render the appearance inconsistent with the character of the structure or of neighbouring structures;

awec, give a local architect / engineer / technician a ring to see if they would be willing to sign it off in accordance with that section of the planning and development act 2000

JimmyMW

sydthebeat wrote: »

Twice the fee? where does that come into it???

on the gate question, personally i think it would fall into section 4 1 (h) exemption.

(h) development consisting of the carrying out of works for the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of any structure, being works which affect only the interior of the structure or which do not materially affect the external appearance of the structure so as to render the appearance inconsistent with the character of the structure or of neighbouring structures;

awec, give a local architect / engineer / technician a ring to see if they would be willing to sign it off in accordance with that section of the planning and development act 2000

Planning Is required, please see extract below from PL.5 - Exempted Development

9. Can I erect walls, fences and gates?
Capped walls made of brick, stone or block with a
decorative finish, railings and wooden fences, but not a
metal palisade or security fences, can be erected as long as
they do not exceed 1.2 metres in height in front of your
house or 2 metres at the side or rear. If the wall is made of
plain blocks or mass concrete it must be rendered or
plastered. Gates and gateways may be built or replaced
providing they do not exceed 2 metres in height. You will
need planning permission if you wish to make a new or
wider access to the public road.

awec

JimmyMW wrote: »

Planning Is required, please see extract below from PL.5 - Exempted Development

9. Can I erect walls, fences and gates?
Capped walls made of brick, stone or block with a
decorative finish, railings and wooden fences, but not a
metal palisade or security fences, can be erected as long as
they do not exceed 1.2 metres in height in front of your
house or 2 metres at the side or rear. If the wall is made of
plain blocks or mass concrete it must be rendered or
plastered. Gates and gateways may be built or replaced
providing they do not exceed 2 metres in height. You will
need planning permission if you wish to make a new or
wider access to the public road.

Is that not referring to if I want vehicular access? I wouldn't want access to the road.

It'd just be a section of the fence that opens that a person can walk through. Like the size of a front door.

JimmyMW

awec wrote: »

Is that not referring to if I want vehicular access? I wouldn't want access to the road.

It'd just be a section of the fence that opens that a person can walk through. Like the size of a front door.

No its referring to a new access, and the public footpath or public green space is considered public road way in this context, im afraid planning is required and it is very clear IMHO.

sydthebeat

JimmyMW wrote: »

Planning Is required, please see extract below from PL.5 - Exempted Development

9. Can I erect walls, fences and gates?
Capped walls made of brick, stone or block with a
decorative finish, railings and wooden fences, but not a
metal palisade or security fences, can be erected as long as
they do not exceed 1.2 metres in height in front of your
house or 2 metres at the side or rear. If the wall is made of
plain blocks or mass concrete it must be rendered or
plastered. Gates and gateways may be built or replaced
providing they do not exceed 2 metres in height. You will
need planning permission if you wish to make a new or
wider access to the public road.

Four points:

1. as exempted development regs cant prescribe for every situation, explanatory briefs like that above also cant prescribe for every situation

2. the access isnt onto a public road.

3. that explanatory above in bold is dealing with car entrances imo.

4. section 4 of the planning act is a basis in law. The explanatory leaflet that the above comes from doesnt have any legal basis.

JimmyMW

sydthebeat wrote: »

Four points:

1. as exempted development regs cant prescribe for every situation, explanatory briefs like that above also cant prescribe for every situation

2. the access isnt onto a public road.

3. that explanatory above in bold is dealing with car entrances imo.

4. section 4 of the planning act is a basis in law. The explanatory leaflet that the above comes from doesnt have any legal basis.

1. I agree however this one is accounted for in the exempted development IMHO

2. If you were to cut the public footpath you would require a road opening license, grass margins and footpaths are classified as road ways, therefore classified as a road IMHO

3. I disagree, access is specified not car access, furthermore whilst the OP appears to be proposing a pedestrian access, there would be nothing stopping small vehicle (motorbike) access through what is being proposed.

4. I agree however your interpretation of same IMO is very loose as the extract you quoted does not address the OP's situation in any form.

Victor

awec wrote: »

I wouldn't want access to the road.

'Road' includes everything from boundary to boundary.

sydthebeat

JimmyMW wrote: »

1. I agree however this one is accounted for in the exempted development IMHO

2. If you were to cut the public footpath you would require a road opening license, grass margins and footpaths are classified as road ways, therefore classified as a road IMHO

3. I disagree, access is specified not car access, furthermore whilst the OP appears to be proposing a pedestrian access, there would be nothing stopping small vehicle (motorbike) access through what is being proposed.

4. I agree however your interpretation of same IMO is very loose as the extract you quoted does not address the OP's situation in any form.

1. no its not.. its not prescribed anywhere in the exempted regs (what you quoted from is not the planning regulations) In fact the only mention to entrances being exempt from planning is found in section 9 (1) P+D act 2001

2. you misunderstand my point here..... its not a PUBLIC road in that its not taken in charge yet, as far as the OP understands. Also, there is no works proposed to the road, grass margin or footpath.

3. theres already a vehicular entrance, why would a motorbike use a pedestrian access?. thats arguing down to the ridiculous.

4. well, it does address the development in the form of "alteration to structure so as not to render it inconsistent with character of structure or neighbouring structures". the gate will look exactly the same as the fence now looks. I dont consider it loose at all.... and its exactly for situations like this that section 4 1 (h) exists.


i think if the OP phones around he will be able to find someone to sign off as exempt.

alternatively apply for a section 5 declaration, though if you go to that effort, you may as well apply for planning.

JimmyMW

sydthebeat wrote: »

1. no its not.. its not prescribed anywhere in the exempted regs (what you quoted from is not the planning regulations) In fact the only mention to entrances being exempt from planning is found in section 9 (1) P+D act 2001

2. you misunderstand my point here..... its not a PUBLIC road in that its not taken in charge yet, as far as the OP understands. Also, there is no works proposed to the road, grass margin or footpath.

3. theres already a vehicular entrance, why would a motorbike use a pedestrian access?. thats arguing down to the ridiculous.

4. well, it does address the development in the form of "alteration to structure so as not to render it inconsistent with character of structure or neighbouring structures". the gate will look exactly the same as the fence now looks. I dont consider it loose at all.... and its exactly for situations like this that section 4 1 (h) exists.


i think if the OP phones around he will be able to find someone to sign off as exempt.

alternatively apply for a section 5 declaration, though if you go to that effort, you may as well apply for planning.

1. To quote yourself "s exempted development regs cant prescribe for every situation" which is the statement i agreed with, explanatory briefs are issued by the council to guide you on how to comply with the regulations, for Example PL.5, within PL.5 it specifically deals with access, in my opinion access relates to all access vehicle or pedestrian, your opinion is different, however if i was advising a client on the same situation as the OP is suggesting, my opinion is it requires planning

2. Sorry but you are misunderstanding my point, from a planning perspective it is classed a road way in my opinion, I only gave an example of doing works to the footpath as an example to back up my point showing where the council deems the footpath as a road way. Whilst it may not be taken in charge, in my opinion as the access is onto a common area and an area deemed a road way planning is required.

3. Again you missed my point, I was giving an example to back up my point, which again is my opinion, which Im entitled to

4. Thats your interpretation of it not fact, I disagree with your interpretation of the situation.

The above is based on my interpretation of the planning laws and the guidance published by the council. Both of us are only expressing an opinion and only the planners interpretation counts, therefore OP contact your local planning office and enquire if planning is required or not either via a pre-planning meeting or a section 5 declaration

rayjdav

Does this not actually fall under exempt development under Class 5 of Sched 2 Part 1 of the regs??


The construction, erection or alteration, within or bounding the curtilage of a house, of a gate, gateway, railing or wooden fence or a wall of brick, stone, blocks with decorative finish, other concrete blocks or mass concrete

1. The height of any such structure shall not exceed 2 metres or, in the case of a wall or fence within or bounding any garden or other space in front of a house, 1.2 metres.

I would agree with Syd here that those explanatory notes from the Dept are very vague and are not to be relied upon for interpretation, only vague guidance. The regs set out the facts of the SI and moreover, interpretation of the wording in the regs. is what can win or lose an argument with the planners.

sydthebeat

Good catch Ray.

JimmyMW

rayjdav wrote: »

Does this not actually fall under exempt development under Class 5 of Sched 2 Part 1 of the regs??


The construction, erection or alteration, within or bounding the curtilage of a house, of a gate, gateway, railing or wooden fence or a wall of brick, stone, blocks with decorative finish, other concrete blocks or mass concrete

1. The height of any such structure shall not exceed 2 metres or, in the case of a wall or fence within or bounding any garden or other space in front of a house, 1.2 metres.

I would agree with Syd here that those explanatory notes from the Dept are very vague and are not to be relied upon for interpretation, only vague guidance. The regs set out the facts of the SI and moreover, interpretation of the wording in the regs. is what can win or lose an argument with the planners.

Im afraid I have to disagree Ray, this does not allow for an addition of a new access, otherwise it could be argued that a new vehicle entrance could be exempt under the same class. Can you put up a gate, alter an existing gate, yes absolutely, can you add a new access not in my opinion.

awec

I didn't expect to cause so much debate! Turns out, I don't need this gate after all.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

I didn't expect to cause so much debate! Turns out, I don't need this gate after all.

sh!t stirrer !!

ah no, its good to tease these things out every now and again.

and opinion on these differ from person to person, planner to planner and local authority to local authority.... so its always good to get differing opinions.

awec

sydthebeat wrote: »

sh!t stirrer !!

ah no, its good to tease these things out every now and again.

and opinion on these differ from person to person, planner to planner and local authority to local authority.... so its always good to get differing opinions.

Yea.

To throw another spanner into the works, the fence in question is probably like 6ft (pretty normal back garden boundary fence). I'd want the gate to have been the same height, so no reduction in privacy, so would probably not be within the 1.2m limit.

rayjdav

JimmyMW wrote: »

Im afraid I have to disagree Ray, this does not allow for an addition of a new access, otherwise it could be argued that a new vehicle entrance could be exempt under the same class. Can you put up a gate, alter an existing gate, yes absolutely, can you add a new access not in my opinion.

Your opinion but the fact that it is pretty clear in black and white text in the SI to me that one can construct or erect a gate on a boundary is simple;)

As I said, it is what one takes from the interpretation of the actual text in in the SI. Would be boring if we all thought the same...:D

woohoo!!!

Yes it's exempt because it goes onto a footpath, per the boundary treatment exemption. Probably exempt if onto a road, but if it's a traffic hazard then it would be de-exempted.

Go for it I say

Marcusm

Victor wrote: »

'Road' includes everything from boundary to boundary.

If the new estate is not in the charge of the local authority then it will not be a public road.

Gumbo

Marcusm wrote: »

If the new estate is not in the charge of the local authority then it will not be a public road.

It’s still a public road afaik.
That’s like saying I don’t need tax and insurance to drive a car on it because it’s not taking in charge.

My estate was built in 1996. It hasn’t been taken in charge yet either. But I can assure you, it’s a public road.

woohoo!!!

kceire wrote: »

Marcusm wrote: »

If the new estate is not in the charge of the local authority then it will not be a public road.

It’s still a public road afaik.
That’s like saying I don’t need tax and insurance to drive a car on it because it’s not taking in charge.

My estate was built in 1996. It hasn’t been taken in charge yet either. But I can assure you, it’s a public road.

Not in charge, not a public road. But irrelevant re this.

rayjdav

The council may take part charge of an estate, finished or not. This can include roads, open space etc. as it sees fit. In KCeires case, if there is an issue since 1996 re drainage, who fixes it? Management company or CoCo? If coco then it is public. If they take possession of sewers, then by default they take charge of the road. This is referred to in the Roads Act 1993.

Off topic but....

Marcusm

kceire wrote: »

It’s still a public road afaik.
That’s like saying I don’t need tax and insurance to drive a car on it because it’s not taking in charge.

My estate was built in 1996. It hasn’t been taken in charge yet either. But I can assure you, it’s a public road.

A public road is defined as one the maintenance of which is in the charge of the local authority. Most driving rules apply to public places (which can incorporate private roads).

youcancallmeal

Sorry to revive an old thread but what OP has described is almost exactly what I did 7 years ago when I moved into a new build house. It's a semi detached house but with no side access, instead of a fence as OP described mine is a brick wall with a footpath on the other side. I got a builder to knock out the brick and install a metal gate with wooden panelling. It looks well(I think) and I've maintained over the years by painting the metal parts and weather treating the wooden parts appropriately.

Anyway, looking to possibly sell up soon and I'm guessing the lack of planning permission will be flagged by someone during the process. Should I go ahead now and apply for planning retention to try and speed things along with the sale? If so any how idea much this is going to cost?

If planning retention is denied then I'll just get a builder to block it up but hopefully it doesn't come to that.