Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

Lithium93_

15 years today since Edge cashed in his Money In The Bank contract against John Cena @ New Year's Revolution to win the WWE Championship.

The White Wolf

Lithium93_ wrote: »

15 years today since Edge cashed in his Money In The Bank contract against John Cena @ New Year's Revolution to win the WWE Championship.

I remember being in disbelief because there was a point where it didn't look like Edge was ever going to reach the top, due to injuries and how he was being booked before that cash in.

Riddle101

By far the best Money in the Bank cash in ever. Totally unforeseen and shot Edge into the stratosphere.

PopePalpatine

Edge in 2006 has to be my favourite heel run that I kept up with as it unfolded. I remember my brother and I joking about how he'd get "mutated" because of his dip in the Long Island Sound. :pac:

PTH2009

Heel Rated RKO (Edge and Orton) were brutal, no way would wwe do something like that nowadays (bar setting someone on fire)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CtSviFYnfw

Agent Coulson

It's such a pity Nakamura no longer really has an interest in wrestling because man when he turns it on it is amazing.

Still I can't blame him picking up huge money and just phoning it in when the company he works for phones it in themselves.

LineOfBeauty

Agent Coulson wrote: »

It's such a pity Nakamura no longer really has an interest in wrestling because man when he turns it on it is amazing.

Still I can't blame him picking up huge money and just phoning it in when the company he works for phones it in themselves.

2 way street. WWE had no idea what to do with him. His body was pretty broken down when he signed, get the most out of what he has left, get him on the main roster and push him to the moon straight away instead of messing around in NXT. How they present him has always been off. Like watch that guy from 2013-2016 when he left NJPW and he's the coolest thing imaginable, obvious cross over appeal, how do you mess that up so badly? A company that has found ways for no hopers like Otis, Miz and others to headline couldn't make Nakamura (even a physically past his best version) work?

ThePott

I think it's always been suggested that Nakamura took the WWE job as he knew wouldn't be able to keep up with the NJPW style much longer and that he could get by going half speed in WWE and sort of retire there. I genuinely don't think he's ever eclipsed his NXT debut with Sami Zayn as far as his best match in WWE and that says a lot.

beakerjoe

To be fair, Nakamura turned it in when he needed in his career but mostly phoned it in whether it was NJPW or WWE. He just has had few chances to turn it on in WWE.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

I think it's always been suggested that Nakamura took the WWE job as he knew wouldn't be able to keep up with the NJPW style much longer and that he could get by going half speed in WWE and sort of retire there. I genuinely don't think he's ever eclipsed his NXT debut with Sami Zayn as far as his best match in WWE and that says a lot.

Probably not but he's hardly been put in many positions to succeed either. With Nak you could easily have him at half speed and still have him as a money drawing player if you presented him correctly. His charisma is undeniable but they missed the boat.

ThePott

I'm not blaming Nakamura entirely and you can certainly blame booking (The Styles feud being the best example of a wasted opportunity) but plenty of times when he has ben in a big match he just hasn't really stepped up. He has been put in massive positions to succeed though, he won the Royal Rumble, had an undefeated streak in his debut on the main roster and beat John Cena. He's held every championship on the main roster bar the world title, that's not nothing. Booking is story based but when you think of the match performances he has given, do most of them stand out?

There's a reason we're talking about him again all of a sudden because he decided to show up tonight but plenty of times he hasn't is my point. I say that as a fan of his. It's not all WWE's fault and to say it is. that's disingenuous.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

I'm not blaming Nakamura entirely and you can certainly blame booking (The Styles feud being the best example of a wasted opportunity) but plenty of times when he has ben in a big match he just hasn't really stepped up. He has been put in massive positions to succeed though, he won the Royal Rumble, had an undefeated streak in his debut on the main roster and beat John Cena. He's held every championship on the main roster bar the world title, that's not nothing. Booking is story based but when you think of the match performances he has given, do most of them stand out?

There's a reason we're talking about him again all of a sudden because he decided to show up tonight but plenty of times he hasn't is my point. I say that as a fan of his. It's not all WWE's fault and to say it is. that's disingenuous.

No, it's a 2 way street like I said. But coming out of his NJPW run, his popularity with a Western audience, there was an easy slamdunk with Nakamura for WWE had they taken that up. And then, with the right presentation, the right booking, I absolutely believe they could've had a Brock Lesnar level attraction on their hands. Genuinely I do. At half speed he's still unique and different enough that his matches (again if presented in a certain way) could've gone over huge and been a complete change of pace to anything else WWE present. Look, they didn't want to do that with him, he's not a WWE lifer guy, they gave him a few accomplishments, a couple of silly feuds and every now and again you kinda remember he exists. But a company not trying to sabotage itself could've gotten far more out of Nakamura in 2016.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

No, it's a 2 way street like I said. But coming out of his NJPW run, his popularity with a Western audience, there was an easy slamdunk with Nakamura for WWE had they taken that up. And then, with the right presentation, the right booking, I absolutely believe they could've had a Brock Lesnar level attraction on their hands. Genuinely I do. At half speed he's still unique and different enough that his matches (again if presented in a certain way) could've gone over huge and been a complete change of pace to anything else WWE present. Look, they didn't want to do that with him, he's not a WWE lifer guy, they gave him a few accomplishments, a couple of silly feuds and every now and again you kinda remember he exists. But a company not trying to sabotage itself could've gotten far more out of Nakamura in 2016.

While I think he absolutely could be a massive star I think you're exaggerating his popularity with western audiences at the time, he was signed with three other NJPW guys and was the only one that went through NXT and that was for good reason imo. While he has tons of charisma, English is not his first language and that can be insurmountable obstacle in WWE. There's ways around that and I definitely don't think they got his full potential at times but I don't think it's all on WWE either.

I'm not coming down on Nakamura, I love the guy, he's a great talent and certainly has a more distinct style than many others which is what makes him captivating. All I said is that he didn't come to WWE to be the guy you want him to be. I think he came as he knew he could take the foot off the gas and rest himself, like remember the guy is 40, nearly 41. He's older than Randy Orton for godsake. While obviously age isn't the big deal it used to be in WWE he was never going to be one of the big stars you build the company around and I think he knew that, he came to WWE to take it easy, make good money and surf from what I can tell. Is he a lifer? Maybe not but he is in the twilight of his career and he seems pretty happy with that. Hell he apparently extended his WWE contract in 2019. His best stuff was in NXT but even then as champion he didn't set the world on fire in my opinion. There has been moments where WWE should have done better by him and there is moments where he could have delivered better in the opportunities he's been given. At least that's what I think.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

While I think he absolutely could be a massive star I think you're exaggerating his popularity with western audiences at the time, he was signed with three other NJPW guys and was the only one that went through NXT and that was for good reason imo. While he has tons of charisma, English is not his first language and that can be insurmountable obstacle in WWE. There's ways around that and I definitely don't think they got his full potential at times but I don't think it's all on WWE either.

I'm not coming down on Nakamura, I love the guy, he's a great talent and certainly has a more distinct style than many others which is what makes him captivating. All I said is that he didn't come to WWE to be the guy you want him to be. I think he came as he knew he could take the foot off the gas and rest himself, like remember the guy is 40, nearly 41. He's older than Randy Orton for godsake. While obviously age isn't the big deal it used to be in WWE he was never going to be one of the big stars you build the company around and I think he knew that, he came to WWE to take it easy, make good money and surf from what I can tell. Is he a lifer? Maybe not but he is in the twilight of his career and he seems pretty happy with that. Hell he apparently extended his WWE contract in 2019. His best stuff was in NXT but even then as champion he didn't set the world on fire in my opinion. There has been moments where WWE should have done better by him and there is moments where he could have delivered better in the opportunities he's been given. At least that's what I think.

I absolutely believe the NXT was a huge mistake on WWE's part. Triple H wanted him, but if presented as a star on the main roster from the off you'd have got way more benefit out of him. Also I think you're looking at his popularity with western audiences through 2021 eyes. He was the hottest act in the west for NJPW, a big draw for ROH and when NJPW toured the UK (for comparison, his popularity dwarfed Tanahashi and Okada in 2015 in the west).

You can absolutely be a special attraction and not talk (or talk in a very limited way) ala Undertaker or Lesnar.

In 2016 you had a unique situation (for a number of reasons) and a unique star with easy cross over appeal. How that has added up to losing to Otis in a couple of minutes in 2021 is entirely on WWE.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I absolutely believe the NXT was a huge mistake on WWE's part. Triple H wanted him, but if presented as a star on the main roster from the off you'd have got way more benefit out of him. Also I think you're looking at his popularity with western audiences through 2021 eyes. He was the hottest act in the west for NJPW, a big draw for ROH and when NJPW toured the UK (for comparison, his popularity dwarfed Tanahashi and Okada in 2015 in the west).

You can absolutely be a special attraction and not talk (or talk in a very limited way) ala Undertaker or Lesnar.

In 2016 you had a unique situation (for a number of reasons) and a unique star with easy cross over appeal. How that has added up to losing to Otis in a couple of minutes in 2021 is entirely on WWE.

I'm not looking at it through 2021 eyes, to a western perspective he was the least known of the 4. Bullet Club was bigger than anything Nakamura had going on and the other 3 were the Bullet Club. He was definitely one of if not the most notable NJPW wrestlers who was not a gaijin but wrestling is a niche and Japanese wrestling even more so. I say putting him in NXT was logical because to a lot of wrestling fans he was not a household name, they debuted him in NXT when it was at it's smarkiest and built him up as special and he got that reaction as such. As much as you say he wasn't presented as a star on the main roster, he was given a bit debut, was protected consistently even when he didn't get the money in the bank and was generally undefeated, they had him go clean over John Cena. While there was some time after that where he languished, he won the Royal Rumble the following year. If that's being represented as a star then what is?
He wasn't put in dumb storylines at first, they built him as tougher than most and even in losing (rarely) he was protected.

I agree that you don't need to talk, hell Nakamura should have had a manager in my opinion but Lesnar and Undertaker are total outliers. Brock was in his 20's, so was Undertaker. You can build something around them, building around Shinsuke who's only got so many years left doesn't make any sense. As for crossover appeal, I think you may be reaching for how wide the appeal of Nakamura is.

Again he has suffered from bad booking many times but he also has had chances to come off as special and not delivered. It's a two way street as you said. Maybe he'll show that killer instinct again, people have certainly started speaking about him again since last night's show, we'll see if it pays off.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

I'm not looking at it through 2021 eyes, to a western perspective he was the least known of the 4. Bullet Club was bigger than anything Nakamura had going on and the other 3 were the Bullet Club. He was definitely one of if not the most notable NJPW wrestlers who was not a gaijin but wrestling is a niche and Japanese wrestling even more so. I say putting him in NXT was logical because to a lot of wrestling fans he was not a household name, they debuted him in NXT when it was at it's smarkiest and built him up as special and he got that reaction as such. As much as you say he wasn't presented as a star on the main roster, he was given a bit debut, was protected consistently even when he didn't get the money in the bank and was generally undefeated, they had him go clean over John Cena. While there was some time after that where he languished, he won the Royal Rumble the following year. If that's being represented as a star then what is?
He wasn't put in dumb storylines at first, they built him as tougher than most and even in losing (rarely) he was protected.

I agree that you don't need to talk, hell Nakamura should have had a manager in my opinion but Lesnar and Undertaker are total outliers. Brock was in his 20's, so was Undertaker. You can build something around them, building around Shinsuke who's only got so many years left doesn't make any sense. As for crossover appeal, I think you may be reaching for how wide the appeal of Nakamura is.

Again he has suffered from bad booking many times but he also has had chances to come off as special and not delivered. It's a two way street as you said. Maybe he'll show that killer instinct again, people have certainly started speaking about him again since last night's show, we'll see if it pays off.

Man that's so far off. I can say hand on heart having experienced NJPW in person in the summer of 2015 on a show that had those 4 guys, that had Okada, Tanahashi, Naito and Liger, Nakamura was the biggest star. He had the biggest autograph line, got the biggest pop, he was the standout following his epic with Ibushi at WK 9 that everybody wanted to see. Not to mention that when he worked ROH, he was again the stand out star, his match with Kevin Steen I still think is one of ROH's most viewed matches ever on YouTube, but just watch the shows, listen to the reactions.

What did WWE do before NXT? Seriously, imagine a world where Hogan comes back from AWA and they have him work in front of a few hundred fans with no hopers. It's not that tough, you tell your audience he's a star, he comes out, he looks like a star, you've got the added advantage of the smarks already being onside, for a guy as good as he is, this really was not that difficult to do properly. By the time he got off the Largo Loop the shine had already been almost entirely wiped away (a big issue with NXT).

The potential cross over appeal of Nakamura was so obvious at that stage and you had an interesting situation in 2016 that was unique that you could've turned to your advantage.

Any chance of him being a money drawing star is long dead. There was lightning in a bottle, but that's very much long gone.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Man that's so far off. I can say hand on heart having experienced NJPW in person in the summer of 2015 on a show that had those 4 guys, that had Okada, Tanahashi, Naito and Liger, Nakamura was the biggest star. He had the biggest autograph line, got the biggest pop, he was the standout following his epic with Ibushi at WK 9 that everybody wanted to see. Not to mention that when he worked ROH, he was again the stand out star, his match with Kevin Steen I still think is one of ROH's most viewed matches ever on YouTube, but just watch the shows, listen to the reactions.

What did WWE do before NXT? Seriously, imagine a world where Hogan comes back from AWA and they have him work in front of a few hundred fans with no hopers. It's not that tough, you tell your audience he's a star, he comes out, he looks like a star, you've got the added advantage of the smarks already being onside, for a guy as good as he is, this really was not that difficult to do properly. By the time he got off the Largo Loop the shine had already been almost entirely wiped away (a big issue with NXT).

The potential cross over appeal of Nakamura was so obvious at that stage and you had an interesting situation in 2016 that was unique that you could've turned to your advantage.

Any chance of him being a money drawing star is long dead. There was lightning in a bottle, but that's very much long gone.

You're missing my point entirely. Him being a big star in NJPW even their biggest star isn't up for debate (as I said one of if not the most notable NJPW wrestler). What I'm saying is that him doing well in NJPW and being popular in NJPW doesn't make him well known to a wider audience. Wrestling is a niche and New Japan is even more niche again. He can be the biggest star in New Japan but that doesn't mean much without it having the most global reach. WWE has a bigger reach than that. No matter how big he was it doesn't matter, sure maybe had the most watched match on the ROH youtube channel (1.3m), a clip from Smackdown with him will overtake that by the end of the week. It's niche. No matter what way we spin it being a big star and well known by smarks who watch a lot of wrestling (that is not an insult) is not translatable to being a big star.

I've asked you already how is he not being presented as a big deal based on booking, initially he was booked incredibly well. As much as the shine might have gone off for you, I assure mainstream fans came to know and like Nakamura from his NXT tenure more than his Japan one. Which is a shame as he was definitely at his best in Japan which I've never argued.

I don't know what your point is about 'cross over' appeal. Do you mean people outside of wrestling? That would never have happened. Do you mean smarks who like Nakamura? They will cross over anyway. Which brings me back to my main point, regardless of booking even when he was booked well Nakamura did not turn in his best performances in the ring, why would WWE or any other promotion make someone who is clearly going at half speed into their big star.

I don't necessarily think anyone has that star power in WWE anymore but I at least understand why they wouldn't make it be Nakamura.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

You're missing my point entirely. Him being a big star in NJPW even their biggest star isn't up for debate (as I said one of if not the most notable NJPW wrestler). What I'm saying is that him doing well in NJPW and being popular in NJPW doesn't make him well known to a wider audience. Wrestling is a niche and New Japan is even more niche again. He can be the biggest star in New Japan but that doesn't mean much without it having the most global reach. WWE has a bigger reach than that. No matter how big he was it doesn't matter, sure maybe had the most watched match on the ROH youtube channel (1.3m), a clip from Smackdown with him will overtake that by the end of the week. It's niche. No matter what way we spin it being a big star and well known by smarks who watch a lot of wrestling (that is not an insult) is not translatable to being a big star.

I've asked you already how is he not being presented as a big deal based on booking, initially he was booked incredibly well. As much as the shine might have gone off for you, I assure mainstream fans came to know and like Nakamura from his NXT tenure more than his Japan one. Which is a shame as he was definitely at his best in Japan which I've never argued.

I don't know what your point is about 'cross over' appeal. Do you mean people outside of wrestling? That would never have happened. Do you mean smarks who like Nakamura? They will cross over anyway. Which brings me back to my main point, regardless of booking even when he was booked well Nakamura did not turn in his best performances in the ring, why would WWE or any other promotion make someone who is clearly going at half speed into their big star.

I don't necessarily think anyone has that star power in WWE anymore but I at least understand why they wouldn't make it be Nakamura.

So who knew Roman Reigns before his main roster debut? Who knew Kurt Angle? The list is endless. Why does the wider audience need to have an intricate knowledge of somebody before they debut? It's a Vince McMahonism to think that way. He was more over with the smart crowd than any wrestler of that time, you present him correctly, you book him strong, you have a star. If you have the right guy (and I absolutely believe Nakamura is 2016 was the right guy) you've got a star if done correctly from the off.

Why wouldn't people have gotten into this guy? Could he be The Rock or Austin? No. Nobody will ever be in that company. Could you have turned him into a special attraction ala a Brock Lesnar? Absolutely. Look at him, the man has a charisma and aura you can't teach. A character that's larger than life. A legitimate background to back it up. Indie cred built in. And a unique opportunity in 2016, just as NJPW was growing in the west, just as OTT streaming services were starting to gain traction, just near the tail end of the indie boom, coming off that match with Styles at WK 10. All of these things falling into place at once and Nakamura lands in your lap and he's working Florida? Nobody can tell me that isn't a missed opportunity.

Tell you what, give me 5 opportunities on main roster WWE where Nakamura was presented correctly and put in a position to be the best version of himself in big singles matches and I'll run through them.

And I'll even grant you that his ring work wasn't the best but then I'll say well I think you can count on one hand (a hand missing a few fingers too) any standout in ring main event performers in WWE since Nak debuted on the main roster. In that company, the in ring doesn't matter.

And sure while I'm at it, I'd wager that even with their hundreds of wrestlers, virtually 0 were as equipped to be a true money drawing, ratings mover as Nakamura was in 2016 aside from Lesnar, Rousey and maybe Reigns.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So who knew Roman Reigns before his main roster debut? Who knew Kurt Angle? The list is endless. Why does the wider audience need to have an intricate knowledge of somebody before they debut? It's a Vince McMahonism to think that way. He was more over with the smart crowd than any wrestler of that time, you present him correctly, you book him strong, you have a star. If you have the right guy (and I absolutely believe Nakamura is 2016 was the right guy) you've got a star if done correctly from the off.

Why wouldn't people have gotten into this guy? Could he be The Rock or Austin? No. Nobody will ever be in that company. Could you have turned him into a special attraction ala a Brock Lesnar? Absolutely. Look at him, the man has a charisma and aura you can't teach. A character that's larger than life. A legitimate background to back it up. Indie cred built in. And a unique opportunity in 2016, just as NJPW was growing in the west, just as OTT streaming services were starting to gain traction, just near the tail end of the indie boom, coming off that match with Styles at WK 10. All of these things falling into place at once and Nakamura lands in your lap and he's working Florida? Nobody can tell me that isn't a missed opportunity.

Tell you what, give me 5 opportunities on main roster WWE where Nakamura was presented correctly and put in a position to be the best version of himself in big singles matches and I'll run through them.

And I'll even grant you that his ring work wasn't the best but then I'll say well I think you can count on one hand (a hand missing a few fingers too) any standout in ring main event performers in WWE since Nak debuted on the main roster. In that company, the in ring doesn't matter.

And sure while I'm at it, I'd wager that even with their hundreds of wrestlers, virtually 0 were as equipped to be a true money drawing, ratings mover as Nakamura was in 2016 aside from Lesnar, Rousey and maybe Reigns.

Dude, you were the one saying he was well known, you can't on one hand say he's well known and then meanwhile say put him on the main roster. Roman Reigns was part of a stable, they got him over as that. Kurt Angle was a gold medalist. What are you meant to say about Nakamura? He was a big deal in Japan lads, trust us and then when he wrestles in America he isn't nearly as good.

I'm not saying he was consistently presented well but you need him to bring his A game too. Look at AJ and Nakamura. Came at the same time, most people will say Vince didn't expect much from AJ. People wrote off his promos and never thought he'd amount to much in WWE, was he presented all that specially after his Rumble debut? Not really.

I do agree, in WWE being good in the ring isn't enough but given Nakamura's output since coming to WWE there has been better in-ring performers and people who can also entertain and fit the 'WWE' mold. Lesnar did more than just perform in the ring, so did Angle. I'm not here to make lists of wrestlers or moments for us to futher argue on. I've mentioned times already where he has been given big opportunities and chances.

Like I said personally I think Nakamura should have gone to NXT because I think you are overestimating his standing in the wider wrestling world and certainly his money drawing although I would certainly be interested to see where he would stand. Have they fumbled Nakamura at times, definitely. Has he been consistent in his delivery, nope. It goes both ways.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

Dude, you were the one saying he was well known, you can't on one hand say he's well known and then meanwhile say put him on the main roster. Roman Reigns was part of a stable, they got him over as that. Kurt Angle was a gold medalist. What are you meant to say about Nakamura? He was a big deal in Japan lads, trust us and then when he wrestles in America he isn't nearly as good.

I'm not saying he was consistently presented well but you need him to bring his A game too. Look at AJ and Nakamura. Came at the same time, most people will say Vince didn't expect much from AJ. People wrote off his promos and never thought he'd amount to much in WWE, was he presented all that specially after his Rumble debut? Not really.

I do agree, in WWE being good in the ring isn't enough but given Nakamura's output since coming to WWE there has been better in-ring performers and people who can also entertain and fit the 'WWE' mold. Lesnar did more than just perform in the ring, so did Angle. I'm not here to make lists of wrestlers or moments for us to futher argue on. I've mentioned times already where he has been given big opportunities and chances.

Like I said personally I think Nakamura should have gone to NXT because I think you are overestimating his standing in the wider wrestling world and certainly his money drawing although I would certainly be interested to see where he would stand. Have they fumbled Nakamura at times, definitely. Has he been consistent in his delivery, nope. It goes both ways.

Well known among a smark audience yes. Which is a huge help, and always has been throughout wrestling history. Recent examples being CM Punk and Bryan Danielson getting strong reactions and an instant buzz among casuals because of their rep among hardcores bleeds into the casual WWE audience. But my point was Nak didn't need to be known by casual viewers or channel flippers pre debut. Do these people need to have an intimate knowledge of Shinsuke Nakamura's G1 record? Obviously not. Ironically enough, even though you say it flippantly, actually yes. Yes, that's how Pro Wrestling works. You find the right talent. You tell your audience this guy is a big deal. The guy beats people and, if all goes well and you have the right guy and a bit of luck, it connects. You protect the guy. You put him in situations which emphasise his strenghts. And wow, look at that, you've got a money drawing star. And this obsession with in ring output, as though Shinsuke Nakamura isn't at a different level to 95% of the roster anyway.

Sure, let's look at AJ Styles. A wrestler whose output these days is little to no better than that of a Miz or Sheamus. A wrestler that they got a few runs with the World Title out of (the Cena matches were well-received but his runs did no business on top) and probably his most memorable run as a cowardly heel champion (notice a theme there) could have had quite literally any heel from their main roster in that spot. I'm happy AJ got his run in WWE, good for him, he deserved the pay day, but he's one of the best examples of a guy that WWE calls a "star" that isn't reflected in any measurable metric I can think of. And coming out of January 5th 2016 I can assure you the hype for Nakamura was considerably higher (partially because his situation was so unique compared to Styles, another big American indie guy going to WWE) and mainly I believe because at that time it was easy to think that with Nakamura they could do so much, the sky was the limit.

I really don't know what chances those are though. Let's do a quick run through of his early WWE run (because by the time he hits the mid card any chance of him being a money drawing guy is stone dead in the water) and you can tell me where the big chance was.

1st Crucial Mistake- Debuts in NXT. Stupid. There's a buzz, a novelty to seeing one of the great stars of Japanese pro wrestling in their prime (or close to it) work for WWE. When was the last time that happened? I can't think of any examples. He debuts in NXT, has a very good match wit Zayn, and is the talk of WWE coming out of that Wrestlemania weekend. The problem is though, you've blown the shock value nature of the debut on the development brand. You can't get that back. Now he's on your streaming service show every week, he's working Takeovers, he's fully apart of developmental. By the time that's over, by the time he gets the main roster call up, his chance at being a special attraction on the main roster (imo the best way they could have booked him) is gone. That's always been an issue with NXT, a big negative of the brand.

2nd Crucial Mistake- Debuts on the main roster, paired with Dolph Ziggler right away. I swear you could have prime Flair, prime Hogan, prime Kobashi, prime whoever and you pair them with Ziggler out of the gate and it's a sure fire way to sap whatever energy or star power a guy has. What a horrible way to introduce him to the main audience on his first ppv.

3rd Crucial Mistake- Enters into a feud with Baron Corbin right after the Ziggler feud. At this stage the dye is cast. He can win Royal Rumbles, World Titles, doesn't matter, he isn't being rehabbed from this. You get 1 chance at a 1st impression, Nak's has been wasted on the Zigglers and Corbin's of the world.

Anyway I could go on, but you get the point. And I do think not only did Nak deserve better, WWE had a shot with a wrestler that I believe was not only a special talent, but one that came ready made for their audience. I've no problem saying I watch a lot of pro wrestling, I see a lot of pro wrestlers, and I can't think of a pro wrestler like Shinsuke Nakamura, I can't think of many pro wrestlers ever that have his charisma, aura and presence, 3 things that are basically unteachable. The man had it in spades. A character that was honed, that was TV ready and that stood out and a ring style unique from anything else on that roster. I'm confident in saying Nakamura is one of the easiest slam dunks WWE have had presented to them in the last 10 years but they missed.

Oh, and by the way, an entire wrestling company exists (and is doing pretty well too) built on the back of fan interest an in certain NJPW wrestlers so, ye.

B.A._Baracus

I like cake.

ThePott

You have this weird idea that Smarks are somehow the driving force behind WWE and the key to success, they're not. They're literally already in the bag, no matter what they do with whatever star, Smarks will watch. They don't need to cater to them. Are we going to act like CM Punk and Daniel Bryan weren't in their share of ridiculous stories and bad bookings? Punk was an outstanding promo and got people onto his side, sure he had a decent foothold from Smark fans but general audiences need to be behind him not just fans on the internet. HE had cross over appeal, his pipebomb genuinely broke out of the WWE bubble, it made some headlines. Daniel Bryan exploded because he was outstanding in the ring and never got his chance, he was an underdog.

So let's take those two points, is Nakamura going to give a promo that will set the world on fire in WWE, no.
Has Nakamura been consistent in his ring work in WWE? Absolutely not.
As much as we can both agree his charismatic and an outstanding wrestler a lot of it is based on his NJPW work. Something the general audience probably are at best vaguely aware of.

If smarks were in charge a lot of wrestlers would have a much higher standing and be booked a certain way. We're also acting as if plenty of successful wrestlers haven't had filler feuds or cringey segments, they got over in spite of them because they excelled in other aspects something I think Nakamura hasn't done or has any intention of doing in WWE. Did he have lacklustre feuds starting off, yeah, he's meant to get a title shot as soon as he walks in? Funny you bring up Lesnar considering Nakamura actually got a title shot sooner than Lesnar did once he got to the main roster. He shouldn't have lost to Jinder Mahal imo. Even when he did lose he won the rumble the following year. I would be interested in who you think Nakamura should have faced when he debuted. A character that was honed?! What is Nakamura's character to someone who hasn't seen his NJPW run?

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Oh, and by the way, an entire wrestling company exists (and is doing pretty well too) built on the back of fan interest an in certain NJPW wrestlers so, ye.

Yeah and it too is really niche. Are we going to act like any of the AEW wrestlers aside from those who were already names have become household names or have 'cross over' appeal? Outisde our wrestling bubble AEW is not notable. Look at the reactions it got when NBA fans saw it, no one knew what it was, they recognised Jericho and that was it.

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I like cake.

WWE should book cake better, in Japan cake felt like a big deal but since cake came to WWE it's done nothing but sit in catering. :pac:

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

You have this weird idea that Smarks are somehow the driving force behind WWE and the key to success, they're not. They're literally already in the bag, no matter what they do with whatever star, Smarks will watch. They don't need to cater to them. Are we going to act like CM Punk and Daniel Bryan weren't in their share of ridiculous stories and bad bookings? Punk was an outstanding promo and got people onto his side, sure he had a decent foothold from Smark fans but general audiences need to be behind him not just fans on the internet. HE had cross over appeal, his pipebomb genuinely broke out of the WWE bubble, it made some headlines. Daniel Bryan exploded because he was outstanding in the ring and never got his chance, he was an underdog.

So let's take those two points, is Nakamura going to give a promo that will set the world on fire in WWE, no.
Has Nakamura been consistent in his ring work in WWE? Absolutely not.
As much as we can both agree his charismatic and an outstanding wrestler a lot of it is based on his NJPW work. Something the general audience probably are at best vaguely aware of.

If smarks were in charge a lot of wrestlers would have a much higher standing and be booked a certain way. We're also acting as if plenty of successful wrestlers haven't had filler feuds or cringey segments, they got over in spite of them because they excelled in other aspects something I think Nakamura hasn't done or has any intention of doing in WWE. Did he have lacklustre feuds starting off, yeah, he's meant to get a title shot as soon as he walks in? Funny you bring up Lesnar considering Nakamura actually got a title shot sooner than Lesnar did once he got to the main roster. He shouldn't have lost to Jinder Mahal imo. Even when he did lose he won the rumble the following year. I would be interested in who you think Nakamura should have faced when he debuted. A character that was honed?! What is Nakamura's character to someone who hasn't seen his NJPW run?



Yeah and it too is really niche. Are we going to act like any of the AEW wrestlers aside from those who were already names have become household names or have 'cross over' appeal? Outisde our wrestling bubble AEW is not notable. Look at the reactions it got when NBA fans saw it, no one knew what it was, they recognised Jericho and that was it.


WWE should book cake better, in Japan cake felt like a big deal but since cake came to WWE it's done nothing but sit in catering. :pac:

Do smarks watch? The majority of people I interact with in regards pro wrestling don't watch the weekly shows anymore. Also judging by their key demos, I dont think those smarks are in the bag anymore. In fact I think that, while we've not hit the floor yet, the WWE viewer is a combination of WWE diehards, old people and a dwindling number of casuals.

Anyway I think you're completely missing the point there. I don't care how they were booked after their debut, rather it was worth noting both had a buzz about them pre debut that fed into the casual audience. A common thing these days in the age of Twitter, Reddit ect.

And in pro wrestling history, going back to the territories, did those fans need to know each wrestler before they debuted? If you take a special attraction act like Kamala, when he'd debut in a new territory he'd come in, destroy the top or 2nd from top babyface, they'd feud and it was almost always guaranteed money. Again, it's pro wrestling 101, this idea that an audience needs a soft launch of a guy by going through NXT is ludicrous. Do you get what I'm saying here?

What's Nakamura's character? Dude look at him, he's a coked up Michael Jackson badass wrestler. The man jumps off the screen. You get the Nakamura character within 10 seconds of his entrance. A character honed over the course of years by 2016.

Totally off topic. Your point was NJPW stars have no crossover appeal. My point is a multi million dollar company drawing pretty strong demos currently exists on the back of fanfare around some NJPW wrestlers. How AEW does or whatever else I don't care, the fact that it exists in the 1st place is what matters for this debate.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Do smarks watch? The majority of people I interact with in regards pro wrestling don't watch the weekly shows anymore. Also judging by their key demos, I dont think those smarks are in the bag anymore. In fact I think that, while we've not hit the floor yet, the WWE viewer is a combination of WWE diehards, old people and a dwindling number of casuals.

Anyway I think you're completely missing the point there. I don't care how they were booked after their debut, rather it was worth noting both had a buzz about them pre debut that fed into the casual audience. A common thing these days in the age of Twitter, Reddit ect.

And in pro wrestling history, going back to the territories, did those fans need to know each wrestler before they debuted? If you take a special attraction act like Kamala, when he'd debut in a new territory he'd come in, destroy the top or 2nd from top babyface, they'd feud and it was almost always guaranteed money. Again, it's pro wrestling 101, this idea that an audience needs a soft launch of a guy by going through NXT is ludicrous. Do you get what I'm saying here?

What's Nakamura's character? Dude look at him, he's a coked up Michael Jackson badass wrestler. The man jumps off the screen. You get the Nakamura character within 10 seconds of his entrance. A character honed over the course of years by 2016.

Totally off topic. Your point was NJPW stars have no crossover appeal. My point is a multi million dollar company drawing pretty strong demos currently exists on the back of fanfare around some NJPW wrestlers. How AEW does or whatever else I don't care, the fact that it exists in the 1st place is what matters for this debate.

Wait so you don't watch neither does anyone else and meanwhile you're arguing about what they're presenting without having seen it? They had a buzz from smarks who you are saying don't watch so how would that equate to anything? Where's this massive boost going to come from if they booked Nakamura better? Ratings for WWE probably will keep dropping as it's a pretty stale product but acting like the smark audience is enough to save it is ludicrous.

I do get what you're saying but the territory days are long gone man. You bring in Nakamura out of nowhere he beats your champion, then what? You want sensical booking why did this guy just show up and get a title shot? What does that say about the rest of the roster? I think having him in NXT made him more well known to a non-Smark audience. Do you see what I'm saying?

That's not character, that's appearance. You literally pulled Michael Jackson because of his jacket, that should tell you how he doesn't have a character in WWE. If you're literally saying his character comes down to his ring gear then that's not much of a character is it?

Strong demos is fine but that doesn't make it not niche. You said there was crossover appeal, rarely cracking a million viewers but with strong demos doesn't make it a mainstream success. It makes it successful within it's niche. Is it great it exists, sure. I hope it continues to exist and gets even bigger but acting like this makes it relevant or popular is misguided.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

Wait so you don't watch neither does anyone else and meanwhile you're arguing about what they're presenting without having seen it? They had a buzz from smarks who you are saying don't watch so how would that equate to anything? Where's this massive boost going to come from if they booked Nakamura better? Ratings for WWE probably will keep dropping as it's a pretty stale product but acting like the smark audience is enough to save it is ludicrous.

I do get what you're saying but the territory days are long gone man. You bring in Nakamura out of nowhere he beats your champion, then what? You want sensical booking why did this guy just show up and get a title shot? What does that say about the rest of the roster? I think having him in NXT made him more well known to a non-Smark audience. Do you see what I'm saying?

That's not character, that's appearance. You literally pulled Michael Jackson because of his jacket, that should tell you how he doesn't have a character in WWE. If you're literally saying his character comes down to his ring gear then that's not much of a character is it?

Strong demos is fine but that doesn't make it not niche. You said there was crossover appeal, rarely cracking a million viewers but with strong demos doesn't make it a mainstream success. It makes it successful within it's niche. Is it great it exists, sure. I hope it continues to exist and gets even bigger but acting like this makes it relevant or popular is misguided.

4 paragraphs and I swear 3 of them completely misrepresented what I said to the point where I had to go back and read my own comments to make sure and 1 paragraph that's so far wide of the mark. For 3 of those paragraphs I'm not going to bother because now I'm going in circles. Paragraph 1. At no stage have I ever said the smark audience can save WWE. If you can quote me on that go ahead. That quote does not exist. The point for P 1. is simple, a wrestler with indie buzz entering WWE tends to bleed into the hardcore WWE fan base. How is that even a contentious point given that WWE themselves have run half a dozen indie darling/WWE PC guy stories since 2014 on their own TV? What are we doing here!?

P 2. Unless I'm really out of touch, the premise of wrestling really hasn't changed that much! 2012 Kazuchika Okada redebuts at Wrestle Kingdom, beats Yoshi Hashi, challenges Hiroshi Tanahashi after the main event to a World Title match, wins the World Title at New Beginning. Boom. Star. Franchise star. That's pro wrestling. That's 2012! You could do the say the same thing with Jay White only a few years ago! It's not that difficult. Tell me the benefits of exposing any seasoned talent to NXT pre main roster and I assure you, I'll give you far more important negatives in return.

Ok Paragraph 3 is my real nit pick. The man is a huge Michael Jackson fan! The dancing, it's all Jackson influenced. He becomes the youngest IWGP Champion ever as a straight laced shooter, he goes to Mexico years after, he comes back and slowly transforms into modern day Shinsuke Nakamura. And ultimately absolutely none of that matters and you don't need to know any of the back story because once the music hits, he enters, you know exactly what he is! And if you're into the back story, it's a wonderfully layered character too. A take that's as bad as "Nakamura's character is a ring jacket" I cannot believe.

P4. Again, I don't care about AEW for the sake of the argument. That it exists is the point of the debate.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

4 paragraphs and I swear 3 of them completely misrepresented what I said to the point where I had to go back and read my own comments to make sure and 1 paragraph that's so far wide of the mark. For 3 of those paragraphs I'm not going to bother because now I'm going in circles. Paragraph 1. At no stage have I ever said the smark audience can save WWE. If you can quote me on that go ahead. That quote does not exist. The point for P 1. is simple, a wrestler with indie buzz entering WWE tends to bleed into the hardcore WWE fan base. How is that even a contentious point given that WWE themselves have run half a dozen indie darling/WWE PC guy stories since 2014 on their own TV? What are we doing here!?

P 2. Unless I'm really out of touch, the premise of wrestling really hasn't changed that much! 2012 Kazuchika Okada redebuts at Wrestle Kingdom, beats Yoshi Hashi, challenges Hiroshi Tanahashi after the main event to a World Title match, wins the World Title at New Beginning. Boom. Star. Franchise star. That's pro wrestling. That's 2012! You could do the say the same thing with Jay White only a few years ago! It's not that difficult. Tell me the benefits of exposing any seasoned talent to NXT pre main roster and I assure you, I'll give you far more important negatives in return.

Ok Paragraph 3 is my real nit pick. The man is a huge Michael Jackson fan! The dancing, it's all Jackson influenced. He becomes the youngest IWGP Champion ever as a straight laced shooter, he goes to Mexico years after, he comes back and slowly transforms into modern day Shinsuke Nakamura. And ultimately absolutely none of that matters and you don't need to know any of the back story because once the music hits, he enters, you know exactly what he is! And if you're into the back story, it's a wonderfully layered character too. A take that's as bad as "Nakamura's character is a ring jacket" I cannot believe.

P4. Again, I don't care about AEW for the sake of the argument. That it exists is the point of the debate.

Right, P1. You have been saying that if he was done right he would be a money drawing star with crossover appeal, yet every example you have given is anecdotal and how he has been a hit with smarks who love indie wrestling or promotions outside of WWE. If it bleeds into the hardcore fanbase as you say then it makes no difference anyway, those hardcore fans are there anyway, so how would they move the needle in anyway. I still don't know how you think someone like Nakamura is going to bring in these massive legion of new fans, where are these fans coming from? I'm addressing your points, you ignore the stuff that doesn't suit your argument.

P2. The premise of wrestling hasn't changed but the presentation of it massively has, making someone the champ doesn't make them a star anymore. A franchise star? What does that mean in WWE? Sweet F all when you have so many brands again you're wanting WWE to be something it's not so Nakamura can succeed and I'm telling you that under what WWE is he was never going to be this star you claim he could be. Finn Balor did pretty well out of NXT, Kevin Owens etc. NXT has plenty of faults but acting like putting Nakamura straight on the main roster and it being a game changer just isn't true.

P3. Again I've asked about character in WWE and all you've done is gone on about his run in NJPW and his past accomplishments. What does that tell you about his character in WWE. If you didn't know all that what are you meant to grab onto, oh I like his music and his jacket. The closest he came to character was when he was going into the AJ feud post Mania when he played off people's expectations of him a Japanese wrestler, "No Speak English". Aside from that he is a guy who was big in Japan and hits hard, how does that distinguish him as a performer?

P4. You brought up AEW as a way of saying see people known and like New Japan outside of Japan. That fact it exists is great but that's not on Shinsuke, it's on the Elite. Sure Shinsuke and Styles helped get NJPW out there but Omega and the Bucks brought it to another level. Omega was a bigger deal to western audiences than Shinsuke ever was and even that said Dynamite isn't mainstream as much as it is a success, that alone should tell you that Nakamura wasn't going to be the crossover star you say he would have been, end of.

kksaints

After the allegations about Michael Jackson in the last few years wouldn't WWE want to stay as far away from a Jackson influenced character as possible?

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

Right, P1. You have been saying that if he was done right he would be a money drawing star with crossover appeal, yet every example you have given is anecdotal and how he has been a hit with smarks who love indie wrestling or promotions outside of WWE. If it bleeds into the hardcore fanbase as you say then it makes no difference anyway, those hardcore fans are there anyway, so how would they move the needle in anyway. I still don't know how you think someone like Nakamura is going to bring in these massive legion of new fans, where are these fans coming from? I'm addressing your points, you ignore the stuff that doesn't suit your argument.

P2. The premise of wrestling hasn't changed but the presentation of it massively has, making someone the champ doesn't make them a star anymore. A franchise star? What does that mean in WWE? Sweet F all when you have so many brands again you're wanting WWE to be something it's not so Nakamura can succeed and I'm telling you that under what WWE is he was never going to be this star you claim he could be. Finn Balor did pretty well out of NXT, Kevin Owens etc. NXT has plenty of faults but acting like putting Nakamura straight on the main roster and it being a game changer just isn't true.

P3. Again I've asked about character in WWE and all you've done is gone on about his run in NJPW and his past accomplishments. What does that tell you about his character in WWE. If you didn't know all that what are you meant to grab onto, oh I like his music and his jacket. The closest he came to character was when he was going into the AJ feud post Mania when he played off people's expectations of him a Japanese wrestler, "No Speak English". Aside from that he is a guy who was big in Japan and hits hard, how does that distinguish him as a performer?

P4. You brought up AEW as a way of saying see people known and like New Japan outside of Japan. That fact it exists is great but that's not on Shinsuke, it's on the Elite. Sure Shinsuke and Styles helped get NJPW out there but Omega and the Bucks brought it to another level. Omega was a bigger deal to western audiences than Shinsuke ever was and even that said Dynamite isn't mainstream as much as it is a success, that alone should tell you that Nakamura wasn't going to be the crossover star you say he would have been, end of.

P1. I don't think anybody is bringing an army of non fans to WWE (maybe The Rock for the SD debut on Fox is the last example I can think of) but presented correctly in 2016 I do believe he'd have hooked casual or semi casual viewers and you could've built ppvs on the back of such a run for sure.

P 2. Again I'll say it. You can give him a million World Title reigns now, doesn't matter, the bloom is off the rose. Present him correctly back then and I absolutely do think he was a guy they could've catapulted to a difference making level in regards to pop some ratings, network subs ect. That's the measure I'm going on here, not that he'd be Times Man of the Year 2016. I'd absolutely argue exactly the same thing as I've done here for Nakamura that NXT was ultimately the wrong move for Balor in 2014. Completely wrong for reasons previously outlined.

P 3. I don't even know how to go about this. You could sit a 12 year old in a room, they see Nakamura and they'd understand the gist of the character. I now have to ask, did you see him in NJPW at all? And even aside from that, taking just the WWE presentation of purely the character, how do you not get what Nakamura is? And how could you not see that guy back then and instantly think money?

P 4. The point you said was that I put too much emphasis on the influence of Western NJPW fandom. I said a company literally exists in America because of it. That's the entire point. That in 2021 we're trying to downplay the influence of that section of fans in pro wrestling is wild.

Loughc

Loughc

Styles Cena Rumble 2017 is just a treat to rewatch. Just watched it again this morning.