Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

ERG89

leggo wrote:

You can use that same stick to beat nearly everyone at some stage of their career, though. There was a stage when nobody was looking for The Ringmaster or Terra Ryzing or Mean Mark Callous in the main event. You’d have got laughed at once if you suggested American Dragon would be WWE Champion. You build someone up by putting them in new spots and seeing if it takes. He did the best he could with what he was given and he got way over whether people like that or not.

When they were Corbin's age they were all talented enough to be World Champions tho.
It's not his fault he's being overpushed & hasn't the talent for his role but I'm not going to just ignore he doesn't have those skills. You can definetly see he's only ever wrestled in WWE, it's very telling

leggo

What? His age? When has that ever been a metric used in wrestling to define someone’s ability?! When DDP was Baron Corbin’s age, he was a bouncer!

Lads I’m sorry but there’s a severe amount of waffle being spouted in this discussion. Why can’t you just leave it at “I’m not a fan personally”?

RollieFingers

Corbin just makes me want to change the channel to get him off my screen, everything about him is bland.

Lithium93_

RollieFingers wrote: »

Corbin just makes me want to change the channel to get him off my screen, everything about him is bland.

Watching him, it's like watching paint dry.

ERG89

leggo wrote: »

What? His age? When has that ever been a metric used in wrestling to define someone’s ability?! When DDP was Baron Corbin’s age, he was a bouncer!

Lads I’m sorry but there’s a severe amount of waffle being spouted in this discussion. Why can’t you just leave it at “I’m not a fan personally”?

You brought up a bunch of wrestlers who people might have said would never amount to much. I looked at where they were when they were his age now.
Your great for the waffle yourself so don't be upset when other people see nothing in Baron Corbin.

J. Marston

He's up there for worst look too. Wrestling in a waistcoat, shirt and slacks, for goodness sake. Looks like a snooker player.

jaykhunter

J. Marston wrote: »

He's up there for worst look too. Wrestling in a waistcoat, shirt and slacks, for goodness sake. Looks like a snooker player.

Hey hey hey leave waistcoats out of this!

leggo

It's a really weird tic that wrestling fans have that doesn't translate to other forms of entertainment: "If my favourites aren't champion, this is bad, and if someone gets used who I don't like, it's also bad." Like you don't see people moaning about how X and Y not being the main focus of Avengers Endgame ruined it all. With movies etc, people are generally fine saying "I didn't like this movie/character" and leaving it, but with wrestling fans have to prove it and use BS metrics, despite wrestling being one of the entertainment forms its fans understand least in this regard and being proven wrong time and again. Don't believe me? Everyone is MAD for John Cena and Roman Reigns these days, and both were accused of ruining wrestling at one stage too. When Triple H is in a suit, he's the saviour of wrestling, when he's in his underwear he's single-handedly destroying it.

And I don't want to be a dick either and point out the gaping flaws in the arguments. Like how nobody has come back to me with those amazing ratings Raw got after Corbin was removed as GM, that whole line of thinking just got dropped when everyone saw it didn't work. No, what matters now is the age of talent! He's not as successful as SCSA was at his age, so he's a flop! Nobody credible has ever used this as a metric to define talent or success, wrestling and particularly WWE is almost a different industry to when Austin came up (e.g. Austin had 4 years on top, Cena had 15 and counting, while Corbin has been on the main roster almost as long as Austin's entire run in the main event and is just getting started), but sure. It fits here as 'proof', despite what fitted yesterday as 'proof' being made totally redundant.

Just say you don't like something or someone. That's all you need to do. Nobody can argue with that and you don't look like a fool, what's not to like?!

The White Wolf

Thanks for enlightening me leggo; didn't realise what a big oul mark I was being. As ever your knowledge of the game makes the place all the better.

leggo

I feel like you’ve taken that very personally for no reason. At no stage did I think “This will show The White Wolf”, it’s just a look at the odd way wrestling fans relate to the thing they’re supposed to love with a live action example. You’re more than welcome to argue with me on the points instead of deflecting. Like this is the third time now I’m asking for those awesome, post-GM Corbin Raw ratings.

RollieFingers

You see Corbin as a heel who got really over, others see him as bland and boring, hate his waistcoat attire and change the channel when he appears. You're the only one blabbering on about people projecting their frustration on the product onto him, severe amounts of waffle being talked and telling people what to do so they don't look like fools. Would you ever give over.

leggo

Again, getting personal because you don’t have an argument. Just back up the claims that were made that he was responsible for the poor Raw ratings. I’ve been totally consistent saying “If you don’t like him, fine”. The reason we’re debating is that there were bad claims made. I can back up that he got over as a heel, just a look at this thread with people citing words that were literally said in the storyline is evidence of that. If they didn’t want you to think “Raw was in the tank because of YOU Baron, dislike this man”, they wouldn’t have had the McMahons and Seth Rollins say it on their scripted TV show. You’re saying it now, objective achieved, he got over.

And nobody can back those ratings claims up with facts, but you don’t want to back down, so now you’re attacking me. Relax. I’m not telling you you have to like him. I’m letting you have your opinion, let me have mine. But if you’re going to state bad facts, then expect to get pulled up when they’re full of crap. If people switched off while he was GM, there’d be a big bump upwards when he wasn’t. There wasn’t, so there’s zero evidence that people switched off because he was GM. That’s a bad argument, simple. /debate

RollieFingers

leggo wrote: »

Again, getting personal because you don’t have an argument. Just back up the claims that were made that he was responsible for the poor Raw ratings. I’ve been totally consistent saying “If you don’t like him, fine”. The reason we’re debating is that there were bad claims made. I can back up that he got over as a heel, just a look at this thread with people citing words that were literally said in the storyline is evidence of that. If they didn’t want you to think “Raw was in the tank because of YOU Baron, dislike this man”, they wouldn’t have had the McMahons and Seth Rollins say it on their scripted TV show. You’re saying it now, objective achieved, he got over.

And nobody can back those ratings claims up with facts, but you don’t want to back down, so now you’re attacking me. Relax. I’m not telling you you have to like him. I’m letting you have your opinion, let me have mine. But if you’re going to state bad facts, then expect to get pulled up when they’re full of crap. If people switched off while he was GM, there’d be a big bump upwards when he wasn’t. There wasn’t, so there’s zero evidence that people switched off because he was GM. That’s a bad argument, simple. /debate

Who's getting personal? You said all that stuff about others comments. I made no claims about ratings so can't help you there, I just said he makes me want to change the channel when I see him. You said everyone is mad about Cena and Reigns these days? Can you back those claims up with facts? Because I'm not a fan of either.

nazmoalex

Baron Corbin is useless, he fell on his arse trying to cash in the money in the bank. I suppose he did that on purpose too to get heat. Trolololol!
He was getting a huge push as a heel and they stopped it dead in it's tracks.
He's been trust back into that same spot, but if he was over as a heel by now, he'd be working higher up the card without a doubt.
Sure anybody that's stuck in a fued with him gets pulled down if anything, not elevated.
He's rubbish.

leggo

RollieFingers wrote: »

Who's getting personal? You said all that stuff about others comments. I made no claims about ratings so can't help you there, I just said he makes me want to change the channel when I see him. You said everyone is mad about Cena and Reigns these days? Can you back those claims up with facts? Because I'm not a fan of either.

Well then why are you arguing with me? If your point is “I just don’t like him”, then arguing with someone who says “If you don’t like him, that’s fine” is a bit random no? Like it comes across as if you just want to argue with someone about Baron Corbin if you’re picking a fight with someone who’s not opposing your viewpoint?

My stance in this, again, is: I think he’s got over well as a heel, X-Pac heat is a fallacy, it’s fine if you don’t like wrestlers but contentious when you claim they’re ‘bad’ for the product, and it’s crap to hold Corbin responsible for bad ratings. I haven’t had to move an inch from that initial stance. Whereas nobody has been able to prove he’s had an effect on ratings, that they haven’t been worked by the storyline, and arguments against him have conveniently moved away from ratings and now onto his age, which is the important factor now for some reason.

Cena and Reigns get huge, unanimous cheers now. There were people crying when Reigns announced he was in remission from leukaemia. Cena got a massive reaction at Mania. I mean, fascinating that you feel differently, cool story bro, but every single wrestler (or public figure) on the planet has people who like and dislike them. The consensus on Cena and Reigns would swing against that view now when it would’ve been more in line with how you felt once. Which just shows consensus among wrestling fans counts for little in grading someone’s skill because it can change overnight completely unrelated to anything they do in the ring.

nazmoalex wrote: »

Baron Corbin is useless, he fell on his arse trying to cash in the money in the bank. I suppose he did that on purpose too to get heat. Trolololol!
He was getting a huge push as a heel and they stopped it dead in it's tracks.
He's been trust back into that same spot, but if he was over as a heel by now, he'd be working higher up the card without a doubt.
Sure anybody that's stuck in a fued with him gets pulled down if anything, not elevated.
He's rubbish.

But I can literally make the exact same argument about the pushes of Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn and Finn Balor. They’ve yo-yo’d up and down the card, just like Corbin.

If I did, you’d likely say something about the inability of Vince McMahon to push good talent. But his judgement is spot on when it suits your view, is it?

This is what I’m saying lads: your arguments flip-flop to suit whatever you want to think, and that’s when they start to look like crap. Just say you like or dislike someone. That’s fine. Don’t be so insecure with your views and need to have them validated by saying “Other people feel the same!” (when they’re supposed to dislike the heel) or “They’re bad for the product” (when there’s no evidence of such). Just dislike them and move on with your life.

RollieFingers

You said "everyone is MAD for John Cena and Roman Reigns these days", which clearly isn't true. Not arguing with anyone just talking wrestling on a forum, you said there's a severe amount of waffle being spouted and you just demonstrated it.

nazmoalex

Leggo, you can't keep projecting what you assume others think in the middle of reply and not expect to be ridiculed for it.
In nearly every instance you do that, it annoys me.
But not as much as Baron Corbin.
He's vanilla to me and unless he has a turnaround of ungodly proportions that's not going to change.
Now why can't you just accept that for what it is and move on, as you put it yourself.

leggo

nazmoalex wrote: »

Leggo, you can't keep projecting what you assume others think in the middle of reply and not expect to be ridiculed for it.
In nearly every instance you do that, it annoys me.
But not as much as Baron Corbin.
He's vanilla to me and unless he has a turnaround of ungodly proportions that's not going to change.
Now why can't you just accept that for what it is and move on, as you put it yourself.

Apologies. I'll ask you directly...

So you think Vince McMahon's usage over the years of Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn and Finn Balor is spot on then and his judgement is to be trusted absolutely? Since you value it so highly as 'proof' that Baron Corbin is a bad wrestler?

I'm just looking for a shred of consistency within any of these arguments and you guys keep ducking when asked to back up what you're saying. So there's a direct question.

nazmoalex

leggo wrote: »

Apologies. I'll ask you directly...

So you think Vince McMahon's usage over the years of Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn and Finn Balor is spot on then and his judgement is to be trusted absolutely? Since you value it so highly as 'proof' that Baron Corbin is a bad wrestler?

I'm just looking for a shred of consistency within any of these arguments and you guys keep ducking when asked to back up what you're saying. So there's a direct question.

Ok, I appreciate that. I suppose I would say I don't really know what to say about Vince's judgement on how he books people. I do think he has booked Corbin to position him as a top heel, and to their credit he gets booed.
As a fan who generally preferes heels, he does nothing for me.
That's pretty much it.
And for the record, I haven't been watching Raw or Smackdown as much lately, so basing my opinion on what I have seen from him up to Mania.
If you have a different opinion, that's cool, if everyone liked the same people life would be boring.

And sorry for being snotty, but I felt it necessary to point it out.

Peace out

gerrybbadd

Caught the Viceland Killing of Brody episode last night.

Amazing stuff. Felt real bad for Tony Atlas. Man, Carlos Colon is a real piece of shít. Never mind Invader 1. How he got away with it, i'll never know.

And these days, he's advertising himself on Facebook for children's parties. His banner on FB is a picture of Brody with the text "I didn't Kill Brody"

RollieFingers

Anyone watch Rebellion last night? Thought it was a good PPV, a very easy watch. LAX and Lucha Bros are two of the best teams on the planet, that main event was fantastic, Penta Driver through the chairs was sick. Hopefully Cage is ok, the Spanish Fly off the ramp looked like a rough landing. Ace Austin has potential to be a star in the business, and Tessa keeps putting on good matches, hope to see her vs Charlotte one day.

ERG89

Will watch it later. The new challenger for Cage is a pretty easy choice as a free agent signing, even with his murky background he has undeniable talent. Hopefully Brian Cage is ok tho.

RollieFingers

ERG89 wrote: »

Will watch it later. The new challenger for Cage is a pretty understandable free agent signing. Hopefully Brian Cage is ok tho.

Yeh wasn't expecting to see him, those two have the ability to put on a really good display together. Between Rebellion, the Crockett Cup and Hi no Kuni it was a solid weekend of wrestling outside of the WWE bubble.

ERG89

RollieFingers wrote: »

Yeh wasn't expecting to see him, those two have the ability to put on a really good display together. Between Rebellion, the Crockett Cup and Hi no Kuni it was a solid weekend of wrestling outside of the WWE bubble.

Was expecting him there more than AEW or NXT; plus he's Canadian.
I don't know the entire story behind his controversy but if your impact it was an easy decision to get someone of his talent; I know he has baggage but I really enjoyed his wok in New Japan but Jeff Cobb makes sense for NJPW to replace his old role

RollieFingers

Cage just said that it could just be severe inflammation and bone bruising, although did say there's a possibility there could be a small fracture there. Fingers crossed he's ok.

Agent Coulson

I can't wait till someone puts together a video highlight package of all the best Ricochet flip spots to the soundtrack of Pew Pew.

TimesArrow

I have a bit of a random hot take on the state of wwe. according to reports, last nights smackdown had an audience of 1.8m, their lowest in 3 years. Raw's audience was also pretty dismal. from reading the weekly reports on ratings and the products (and talking with some mates who are interested in wwe), to me, it seems that there are some parts of the wrestling reporting media/fans who almost want wwe to fail. like they relish in the low audience ratings. wwe is said to be "invinceable" and despite the often poor ratings and pretty mediocre product, the hardcore fans (like us) and tv deals (not to mention lucrative saudi deals) will keep the company afloat. reading a lot of things on various forums/ twitter etc makes me really think a lot of people would actually love if the WWE went t*ts up for real and vince would get his comeuppance. a random thought if ever there was one

leggo

The mad thing is the product actually feels looser and more fun and unpredictable the past few weeks (in what I’ve seen now, which is mainly through YouTube as I’m a bit burned out on wrestling as a whole and taking a break for a few weeks). It’s always the way though: we have our fun, ratings go down, they go back to the tried and tested methods, balance out, then online fans go mental and say it’s dying. It’s one big cycle that repeats. The indies and so on have been strong for so long now you could nearly write a script for them too.

sky88

Yep there’s a definite glee in a lot of journalists over state of the ratings it’s why I think a lot a getting paid by aew to only do positive reviews or stories like Wwe have done themselves I’m sure. Honestly I think Wwe failing is bad news for all but hopefully the kick in the butt they badly need.

I’m pretty stale in wrestling in general at the minute Wwe ain’t doing much for me, aew I’m just a bit meh about who’s in charge, new japan is in a state of change and nothing clicking so far.

Think I’m going to go on a little break and come back summerslam time or if I hear something great happened.

RollieFingers

Don't know if it's so much that people want WWE to fail, but as pointed out it's one big cycle nearly, there's not much going on in WWE where you think that is going to be must watch, I can't miss it, Raw especially just seems like the same stuff every week. I think it's more wanting a genuine alternative, which there are loads around these days - Impact, NJPW, MLW, Rev-Pro, ROH all putting out good content on a regular basis, and easily accessible too. Hopefully AEW follows suit. And in fairness NXT is still very good too.