Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

J. Marston

Definitely notice it from John Pollock on the Post Wrestling shows, he's almost giddy when the ratings are awful.

leggo

sky88 wrote: »

Yep there’s a definite glee in a lot of journalists over state of the ratings it’s why I think a lot a getting paid by aew to only do positive reviews or stories like Wwe have done themselves I’m sure. Honestly I think Wwe failing is bad news for all but hopefully the kick in the butt they badly need.

This is a big thing: a lot of the 'journalists' have been co-opted by AEW. I'm not sure if they're even getting paid, I'd say press passes are enough. I know myself from both sides of the coin sure: generally you'll get an all access pass for positive coverage (I'll get around this personally by stating any biases or vested interest up front so people can adjust accordingly) or you'll be shunted, bullied and get treated like dirt if you dare say how you really feel. It's a tough line but, if you take yourself seriously, you have to come out on the side of truth and your audience's best interests always. And I don't think that kind of integrity exists at all within wrestling tbh, it's an extremely low bar for journalism standards.

764dak

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Caught the Viceland Killing of Brody episode last night.

Amazing stuff. Felt real bad for Tony Atlas. Man, Carlos Colon is a real piece of shít. Never mind Invader 1. How he got away with it, i'll never know.

And these days, he's advertising himself on Facebook for children's parties. His banner on FB is a picture of Brody with the text "I didn't Kill Brody"

Invader 1 said it was self-defence.

Sirsok

I think the frustration comes from the longing that it could be so much more. TV and movies have evolved tremendously over the past view Years with people having a need for long coherent storylines with clearly defined characters. In wwe if you are a bad guy, that's all you are, and you can surround yourself with other bad guys because hey we are all bad guys, same for faces. You need it to be somewhat ambigious.

It really does have to much potential to be a excellent product, if they plan things out carefully. If they give their characters things to do, motives for their actions. The wrestling takes care of themselves because they have such an amazing roster, but character development is crucial. Roman reigns is essentially the same guy he was 4 years ago, as they all are. No one ever really grows, nothing ever really changes, so everything can essentially be missed.

If they won't invested the time into creating something compelling, I won't feel compelled to watch.

ERG89

RollieFingers wrote: »

Don't know if it's so much that people want WWE to fail, but as pointed out it's one big cycle nearly, there's not much going on in WWE where you think that is going to be must watch, I can't miss it, Raw especially just seems like the same stuff every week. I think it's more wanting a genuine alternative, which there are loads around these days - Impact, NJPW, MLW, Rev-Pro, ROH all putting out good content on a regular basis, and easily accessible too. Hopefully AEW follows suit. And in fairness NXT is still very good too.

Enjoyed Rebellion more than any WWE PPV in a some time. You could see the talent enjoy the bit of freedom; even if not everything clicks. No commentators or talent being all bitchy, they're wrestlers who play characters on a wrestling show.
Miyahara vs Jake Lee was a better watch in terms of match quality mind.
I'm glad WWE's ratings suck as hopefully it will be the kick in the hole they've needed a very long time.
It's 2019, the old format playbook is beyond stale now. Who wants to see jokes about men shaving their backs, the 5,000 contract signing in history or bad women's wrestling.

RollieFingers

ERG89 wrote: »

Enjoyed Rebellion more than any WWE PPV in a some time. You could see the talent enjoy the bit of freedom; even if not everything clicks. No commentators or talent being all bitchy, they're wrestlers who play characters on a wrestling show.
Miyahara vs Jake Lee was a better watch in terms of match quality mind.
I'm glad WWE's ratings suck as hopefully it will be the kick in the hole they've needed a very long time.
It's 2019, the old format playbook is beyond stale now. Who wants to see jokes about men shaving their backs, the 5,000 contract signing in history or bad women's wrestling.

Same, Lucha Bros vs LAX was better than anything WWE have put out this year imo, thought Gail vs Tessa was best women's match this year also. Nothing outlandish, just a really solid wrestling ppv. Helps that it doesn't go on for seven hours too.

NITRO95

leggo wrote: »

This is a big thing: a lot of the 'journalists' have been co-opted by AEW. I'm not sure if they're even getting paid, I'd say press passes are enough.

You know this to be a fact do you? I'd love to see names of these journalists that have been co-opted by AEW

CastorTroy

I was just watching the WWE Shop ad during NXT and think they need to change the shot of Becky. Maybe it's because it's black and white, but it looks like her top is pretty transparent or tight. Of course there were comments on that night about her being cold.
Of course no problem here but doesn't look too PG.

leggo

NITRO95 wrote: »

You know this to be a fact do you? I'd love to see names of these journalists that have been co-opted by AEW

Did you follow wrestling media after ALLIN? Every American wrestling media head with a half decent following was tweeting pictures of them backstage with wrestlers and gushing about the show. This isn’t a secret. If you’re getting favours and comps then giving positive coverage in return, that’s being co-opted. Dave Meltzer will regularly run angles involving The Elite and reports storyline as fact (remember Kenny Omega was ‘leaving’ NJPW a few months before he won the IWGP Championship? The same belt in the same company known for planning YEARS in advance? Then gave Dave the exclusive that he was, in fact, staying?) They’ve been open about wanting to ‘integrate’ the media since starting the AEW project.

I’m making the point that they’re likely not being directly paid, just played. I don’t even judge them that harshly for it, it is what it is, they probably don’t have that much to lose by giving up their integrity so why not cash that in for the ultimate fan experience if that’s what their goal is? More power to them, a lot would do the same. If I was a struggling music journalist and you offered me the chance to give that up to go on the tour bus of one of the world’s biggest bands, I’d definitely have a strong think about it! It’s just that at some stage you have to have sense and view the situation for what it is, so you can make your own mind up instead of buying stock in a project that could yet be a total false dawn.

The White Wolf

leggo wrote: »

Did you follow wrestling media after ALLIN? Every American wrestling media head with a half decent following was tweeting pictures of them backstage with wrestlers and gushing about the show. This isn’t a secret. If you’re getting favours and comps then giving positive coverage in return, that’s being co-opted. Dave Meltzer will regularly run angles involving The Elite and reports storyline as fact (remember Kenny Omega was ‘leaving’ NJPW a few months before he won the IWGP Championship? The same belt in the same company known for planning YEARS in advance? Then gave Dave the exclusive that he was, in fact, staying?) They’ve been open about wanting to ‘integrate’ the media since starting the AEW project.

I’m making the point that they’re likely not being directly paid, just played. I don’t even judge them that harshly for it, it is what it is, they probably don’t have that much to lose by giving up their integrity so why not cash that in for the ultimate fan experience if that’s what their goal is? More power to them, a lot would do the same. If I was a struggling music journalist and you offered me the chance to give that up to go on the tour bus of one of the world’s biggest bands, I’d definitely have a strong think about it! It’s just that at some stage you have to have sense and view the situation for what it is, so you can make your own mind up instead of buying stock in a project that could yet be a total false dawn.

Aren't you the one involved in WWE Parties? Something which would mean, I assume, you have to link in with the company from a marketing point of view at the very least - seems a bit rich that you would accuse another professional of being compromised in his analysis of a company.

Autecher

CastorTroy wrote: »

I was just watching the WWE Shop ad during NXT and think they need to change the shot of Becky. Maybe it's because it's black and white, but it looks like her top is pretty transparent or tight. Of course there were comments on that night about her being cold.
Of course no problem here but doesn't look too PG.

Pics or GTFO :P
Unless you are referring to this?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109897935&postcount=3275

gerrybbadd

764dak wrote: »

Invader 1 said it was self-defence.

Of course he did. What else was he going to say?

CastorTroy

Autecher wrote: »

Pics or GTFO :P
Unless you are referring to this?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109897935&postcount=3275

That's the one. But in black and white

leggo

The White Wolf wrote: »

Aren't you the one involved in WWE Parties? Something which would mean, I assume, you have to link in with the company from a marketing point of view at the very least - seems a bit rich that you would accuse another professional of being compromised in his analysis of a company.

Hi! Yes, I do run Low Blows Wrestling Parties. I encourage you to check out our next party for AEW Double or Nothing in Buskers On The Ball before accusing me of anti-AEW bias! :pac:

cian68

Only quickly scanned the thread so sorry if this has been covered but aren't comp tickets/press passes completely normal when covering sports/movies/music? Seems unfair to say all wrestling journalists who got access at All In were co opted.

leggo

cian68 wrote: »

Only quickly scanned the thread so sorry if this has been covered but aren't comp tickets/press passes completely normal when covering sports/movies/music? Seems unfair to say all wrestling journalists who got access at All In were co opted.

There’s a line. In the movie industry, for example, yes press get passes to watch the final presentation and get access to interview the stars as promo. They are then given complete freedom to report on the movie and there would be uproar if there was blowback and passes are reneged because they gave bad reviews. You may remember a similar situation in MMA, if you follow it, of Ariel Helwani having his credentials removed by UFC for reporting a story that they wanted to announce themselves (but doing so completely ethically through his sources). They backed down after public pressure.

You wouldn’t see journalists going on movie sets and taking selfies with the stars, that’d be a major blow to their credibility. In fact, in football, there was some criticism of journalists last year who went to Gareth Southgate’s invitation to play darts with the English players during the World Cup: the idea being if he built a good relationship with the media, it’d lessen the pressure on the players.

There is no line in wrestling. When Dave Meltzer has moves named after him, is noted friends with stars and allows his show to be used as a patsy to push storylines as fact, nobody is following any ethical line.

I see why companies and organisations offer this kinda stuff, it makes total sense. But journalists are expected to resist those temptations in order of retaining ethical balance. However because people don’t understand, or care, why those ethics are there, you then get people asking “Well what’s the problem?” But, for example, the video game media industry died as a result of co-opting because basically the companies got to everyone notable before they could stand up. So now it’s incredibly difficult to find one credible source which will just tell you if a game is worth spending money on.

Agent Coulson

leggo wrote: »

There’s a line. In the movie industry, for example, yes press get passes to watch the final presentation and get access to interview the stars as promo. They are then given complete freedom to report on the movie and there would be uproar if there was blowback and passes are reneged because they gave bad reviews. You may remember a similar situation in MMA, if you follow it, of Ariel Helwani having his credentials removed by UFC for reporting a story that they wanted to announce themselves (but doing so completely ethically through his sources). They backed down after public pressure.

You wouldn’t see journalists going on movie sets and taking selfies with the stars, that’d be a major blow to their credibility. In fact, in football, there was some criticism of journalists last year who went to Gareth Southgate’s invitation to play darts with the English players during the World Cup: the idea being if he built a good relationship with the media, it’d lessen the pressure on the players.

There is no line in wrestling. When Dave Meltzer has moves named after him, is noted friends with stars and allows his show to be used as a patsy to push storylines as fact, nobody is following any ethical line.

I see why companies and organisations offer this kinda stuff, it makes total sense. But journalists are expected to resist those temptations in order of retaining ethical balance. However because people don’t understand, or care, why those ethics are there, you then get people asking “Well what’s the problem?” But, for example, the video game media industry died as a result of co-opting because basically the companies got to everyone notable before they could stand up. So now it’s incredibly difficult to find one credible source which will just tell you if a game is worth spending money on.

Ain't it Cool became so big and influential that film companies did this by inviting them on set and giving them exclusives for a bit of the press it could give them.


Empire and Total Fim and plenty of magazines get behind the scene interviews and promo shots these Jouro's do of course take selfies and put them out on their own social media to hype their work.

leggo

You’re missing the line there, assuming that being a fan is the same as working within the media, which totally disregards the professional line that is supposed to divide for the sake of impartiality and the public benefit OF fans. (This is what I find wild about these discussions: fans argue against their own self-interest, maybe because they don’t understand the scenario fully I dunno)

Example: Kermode and Mayo are my favourite movie reviewers. So, in that show, Simon Mayo would go to press junkets and interview stars of movies to help hype their movies. Then Mark Kermode is the reviewer who may (and often does) come on straight after said interview and absolutely slate the movie. This is part of the industry, the makers mightn’t like what he has to say, but they’ll face zero consequences or pushback for doing so because there’s a code of ethics all involved obey. While Kermode has now gained several friends within the industry because he’s become so well respected, he’d also give their movies negative reviews, and they’d respect that line because each is doing their job. And you definitely wouldn’t see him palling around with The Rock or Robert Downey Jr on social media, there are healthy boundaries that professionals respect to keep their integrity (because that integrity and impartiality is literally their entire value in their medium).

Reviewers can lower those boundaries at their will, they’ll always get tempted because it’ll always be beneficial to those involved, but in professional industries they will be viewed with contempt by their peers and their public reputation will rightfully take a bashing.

NITRO95

So you're whole point is Meltzer is mates with The Young Bucks and Omega and isn't objective. We all know that. You started off by saying everyone that got a press pass for All In was co-opted by AEW, you have yet to prove this point beyond Meltzer which as pointed out above we are all well aware of.

Cian a couple of posts above made the point that in every other industry having a press pass and access to some players/stars is totally normal. You, Leggo seem to be skewed by a lifetime of WWE not allowing this and considering the media the enemy to be totally normal, it is not. All AEW have done is give open interviews, allowed wrestling media to ask questions and been as open as any other media or entertainment entity normally is.

There has been a tonne of positive press re AEW because they have deserved it. There hasn't been much negative because well they haven't ran any shows yet and they haven't given any real reasons to conplain. Their roster is well built, they have been much more open than WWE are, they have produced solid if unspectacular content in Road to Double or Nothing and BTE and they are attempting to be inclusive to groups that can sometimes be forgotten.

And I'll ask again who in wrestling media other than Dave Meltzer has been co-opted?

leggo

Read back that post again man. It essentially reads to me as as: "Alright so you answered my question with a valid answer, fair enough, I knew that already so it doesn't count. But give me more valid answers!"

I'm giving you very detailed responses describing other industries and how this is done professionally elsewhere, and also how it's been done badly and hurt other industries. I've explained why it's dangerous and not in people's best interests. I've also been fair to AEW and said it's not their fault, that companies will always try it because it's beneficial, and I've even shown how I'm running an AEW-themed event so have nothing against them specifically.

Can you read my posts, then read them again if needed until you understand, and only come back to me when you have something that advances the conversation and doesn't just re-iterate your same, initial point (that's been dealt with) but demand more? You're just not accepting valid answers because you likely don't want to and nobody wants to read us going around in circles making the same point.

Necro

NITRO95 wrote:

There has been a tonne of positive press re AEW because they have deserved it. There hasn't been much negative because well they haven't ran any shows yet and they haven't given any real reasons to conplain. Their roster is well built, they have been much more open than WWE are, they have produced solid if unspectacular content in Road to Double or Nothing and BTE and they are attempting to be inclusive to groups that can sometimes be forgotten.

Doesn't the fact that there's been little to no questioning of the long term vision of AEW by the wrestling media not strike you as a tad weird though?

Like everyone rags on WWE for not having anything like a long term vision (which I happen to agree with).

I'd like to think supposedly objective journalists would actually have some pieces on this by now.

There are some negative comparisons in terms of inmates running the asylum and WCW before its eventual demise but no one seems to want to talk about that, or at least that I can see anyways.


And this isn't to run down AEW, I'd like them to be successful if nothing more than to make WWE get off their hands and start booking properly again. But I think leggos point is a fair one if I'm honest.

leggo

Exactly. AEW is a really exciting prospect with loads to offer the industry, but there are tons of legitimate questions that aren't being asked of them that get asked of other companies, even in their infancy. Off the top of my head:

Why should wrestlers consider giving up the security of WWE contracts for them, what do they offer long-term where WWE offer stability?

What do they actually offer, product-wise, that's different to what's out there? (I genuinely see nothing here beyond "We have PAC and Kenny Omega and might have a TV deal.")

How can fans actually watch the show that's happening in 3 weeks? Seems an obvious one. Is it not poor form that there's been no announcement of such 3 weeks out?

Why do they not seem to have been able to secure working relationships with ROH and NJPW when their talent was so closely tied to them to the point an Exec VP was IWGP Heavyweight Champion before leaving? What happened there? It was announced the week of Wrestle Kingdom and we saw them on that show, so we know discussions were had, and we know they're friends with people in the media who should be smart enough to have asked yet...nothing. And the media aren't even calling for this to be answered publicly either beyond the generic mumblings from those involved.

I'm seeing absolutely none of this. The last question is something that definitely should be being asked and isn't, so I'm assuming that those capable of asking have been tipped off and are kayfabing their audience to help/protect the lads. It's really frustrating to not even see it being discussed when there's clearly a story there. But the media are being distracted and not asking the obvious questions, while also getting press passes and access. That kinda stuff right there is when you know co-option is at play.

764dak

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Of course he did. What else was he going to say?

Well, where's the proof that it wasn't self-defence?

DEFTLEFTHAND

Anybody watching Celtic Warrior workouts with Sheamus?

I find it really cool, we forget at times what these guys have to do every day on the road. They've a brutal schedule.




I'm actually starting to copy some of the workouts. It's inspirational.

Agent Coulson

Is Ziggler officially done with the WWE or on gardening leave waiting for his contract to end?


Any chance of him turning up in AEW.

sky88

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Is Ziggler officially done with the WWE or on gardening leave waiting for his contract to end?


Any chance of him turning up in AEW.

im hoping hes gone from wrestling completely

Lithium93_

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Is Ziggler officially done with the WWE or on gardening leave waiting for his contract to end?


Any chance of him turning up in AEW.

He's off doing some of his "comedy" shtick.

He ain't funny.

ERG89

sky88 wrote:

im hoping hes gone from wrestling completely

Lithium93_ wrote:

He's off doing some of his "comedy" shtick.

Where would you rather see him if you had to:
In a wrestling ring or doing stand-up

sky88

ERG89 wrote: »

Where would you rather see him if you had to:
In a wrestling ring or doing stand-up

wrestling hearing him speak is painful as hes one of those right wing Americans who think there woke

i was fan at the start but i think over time old vinnie mac was right that he was as mid card as it gets

jaykhunter

ERG89 wrote: »

Where would you rather see him if you had to:
In a wrestling ring or doing stand-up

I'd love to see him doing stand-up. Anywhere off WWE TV would be just dandy!