Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

Itssoeasy

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Debate on the Twitter machine about Omega going into the WON HOF, for me he's a 1st ballot HOF guy, no doubt.

I think as a rule which isn’t one with the WON HOF that a wrestler shouldn’t be inducted during their active in ring career and even if you argue that a part timer should go in, surely omega got a lot of tread left on the tyres and a good few runs left in him shouldn’t be in. I mean I hate the sports entertainment Label and to me pro wrestling is a sport and the American sports have the rule I like.

Btw I’m just watching the wwe network live channel and survivor series 2014 event is just finishing and this is the PPV where sting arrived and dolph zigger came back from three to one down to win. For different reasons they ****ed up sting and ziggler.

The White Wolf

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Debate on the Twitter machine about Omega going into the WON HOF, for me he's a 1st ballot HOF guy, no doubt.

It's interesting....I never, ever, paid attention to anything outside of America but the buzz around Kenny pulled me into NJPW. Guy opened me up to such rich and simple storytelling that I thought was dead. He's the reason more or less why AEW was a possibility.

You can't help but be pulled in by him so I've no problem with him being in the WON HOF, he's done a lot for the business in such a short period of time, more than most have done in the last twenty years.

LineOfBeauty

Honestly the only argument against him is if you just don't vote for active wrestlers. Everything he's done already makes him easily HOF worthy and for a lot of people he's been there entry point to Puroresu and is one of the key reasons AEW exists.

Itssoeasy

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Honestly the only argument against him is if you just don't vote for active wrestlers. Everything he's done already makes him easily HOF worthy and for a lot of people he's been there entry point to Puroresu and is one of the key reasons AEW exists.

But my point is no active wrestlers full stop should be eligible for induction not just omega. I mean I think serveral WWE superstars got in while still active which isn’t right. I know wrestling is pre determined and all that and is looked down upon but if it wants to be considered a sport like some promotions treat it now and like how it was presented in years gone bye, then it needs to have a HOF that acts like a sports HOF. And I don’t think Dave meltzer nor the WWE are ones to do it. I won’t argue that what omega has done makes him already worthy but the point is that those accomplishments in his case aren’t going away.

I realise I’m in the minority most likely on this issue and most other things wrestling related but that’s just my take on wrestling.

beakerjoe

sky88 wrote: »

Even though I’ve felt he’s overrated by most fans but yes hes gif worthy but always feel you shouldn’t judge fully hof wise until there careers are winding down not still a long way to go

If he stopped tomorrow hed be there. So why wait?

Smacruairi

I'm a wwe fanboy, love the y2j stuff. I don't get orange cassidy, I don't think ftr are all that. But omega made me learn how to stream njpw stuff while on holiday in Spain at 5am.

The guy is very very very good at the graps. He deserves kudos. He also seems sound. Just wish he could book a women's division

sky88

beakerjoe wrote: »

If he stopped tomorrow hed be there. So why wait?

Because I feel a hof should be celebrating the best of his career with kenny that maybe still to come

LineOfBeauty

Itssoeasy wrote: »

But my point is no active wrestlers full stop should be eligible for induction not just omega. I mean I think serveral WWE superstars got in while still active which isn’t right. I know wrestling is pre determined and all that and is looked down upon but if it wants to be considered a sport like some promotions treat it now and like how it was presented in years gone bye, then it needs to have a HOF that acts like a sports HOF. And I don’t think Dave meltzer nor the WWE are ones to do it. I won’t argue that what omega has done makes him already worthy but the point is that those accomplishments in his case aren’t going away.

I realise I’m in the minority most likely on this issue and most other things wrestling related but that’s just my take on wrestling.

And that's fair enough. If you make it a point that you don't vote active wrestlers across the board then absolutely.

But if you're a voter who does include active wrestlers then Omega is a guy who has to be on your ballot. Same goes for Okada when he goes on next year.

Itssoeasy

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

And that's fair enough. If you make it a point that you don't vote active wrestlers across the board then absolutely.

But if you're a voter who does include active wrestlers then Omega is a guy who has to be on your ballot. Same goes for Okada when he goes on next year.

But again it’s not whether I’d vote or not it’s the point they shouldn’t be on the ballot full stop. And I’ve already given my reasoning behind that point of view and it’s not specific to one wrestler. The NFL, MLB, NBA don’t allow active players and managers in so why should pro wrestling ? It shouldn’t IMO. And again I realise I seem to be taking a rigid position on this but either you treat wrestling seriously or don’t do it and don’t do it unless you are properly trained.

RollieFingers

No doubt at all for me that Omega is HOF worthy. As mentioned above he's a huge reason a lot of us on this side of the world got into NJPW, what else can even be said about the Okada series at this stage, some of the greatest wrestling matches ever. By any metric really he is HOF worthy - match quality is the most obvious, but also the aura and connection he has with the audience, his matches always have a big time feel to them, and for everything he has done outside of the ring in being a big part of the rejuvenation of NJPW and the creation of AEW. The whole he shouldn't be in because he's still active is a moot point considering it's the WON HOF.

The New Japan work is amazing but I think his work in DDT gets overlooked too. He has really been class in ring wherever he's been. Seen a few comments saying he has been disappointing in AEW and have to laugh, I think he was involved in the best tag match the company has had yet with Page against the Bucks and his match against PAC might be the best singles match too. I think he will be a great World champion for them.

LineOfBeauty

RollieFingers wrote: »

No doubt at all for me that Omega is HOF worthy. As mentioned above he's a huge reason a lot of us on this side of the world got into NJPW, what else can even be said about the Okada series at this stage, some of the greatest wrestling matches ever. By any metric really he is HOF worthy - match quality is the most obvious, but also the aura and connection he has with the audience, his matches always have a big time feel to them, and for everything he has done outside of the ring in being a big part of the rejuvenation of NJPW and the creation of AEW. The whole he shouldn't be in because he's still active is a moot point considering it's the WON HOF.

The New Japan work is amazing but I think his work in DDT gets overlooked too. He has really been class in ring wherever he's been. Seen a few comments saying he has been disappointing in AEW and have to laugh, I think he was involved in the best tag match the company has had yet with Page against the Bucks and his match against PAC might be the best singles match too. I think he will be a great World champion for them.

Lanza's impassioned 30 minute rant putting forward Omega's case based purely on drawing power (not even relying on his match quality which, that alone would make him HOF worthy) was quality. Omega has been a major draw for numerous companies since 2012,almost a decade long draw!

LineOfBeauty

Itssoeasy wrote: »

But again it’s not whether I’d vote or not it’s the point they shouldn’t be on the ballot full stop. And I’ve already given my reasoning behind that point of view and it’s not specific to one wrestler. The NFL, MLB, NBA don’t allow active players and managers in so why should pro wrestling ? It shouldn’t IMO. And again I realise I seem to be taking a rigid position on this but either you treat wrestling seriously or don’t do it and don’t do it unless you are properly trained.

Fair enough though I disagree. In some sure it's worth waiting to see how things play out but with guys like Omega and Okada there's really no point in waiting. They're nailed on HOF guys. If you excel in all 3 categories, you're nailed on, just vote them in.

The Nal

Bobby Heenan knew

“Today’s style is different from what it was just a few years ago.

“I could get in the ring right now with Paul Orndorff – who is retired – and get heat.

“I would do an interview about what I think of him, and he does one on what he thinks of me.

“We could stand there in the ring. When the bell rings, and we look at each other, I’d back off in the corner, and we’d walk around.

“Finally, we would lock up. Then, I’d pull a cheap shot on him and jump out. I’d argue with a fan or tell the referee to check him for a foreign object. I could stall and take time until the people would be so upset that they would want to see Orndorff come get me.


“We could tear the place down today and really get the fans riled. I could do it just pulling his hair and then telling the referee I didn’t.

“That is if the referee didn’t see it.

“Everybody does everything in front of the referee nowadays.

“All the heat goes on the ref, and, with all due respect, no one bought a ticket to see the ‘Earl Hebners’ of this world. Everybody pulls hair, hits each other with chairs, and there are no count-outs or disqualifications for it.

“But if I snuck something or pulled hair, and then the ref asked me if I did that, I’d shake my head wildly and make my hair go all over for all to see and yell, ‘No!’ as loud as I could.


“The place would go nuts for Orndorff and me, and we wouldn’t have to go through a single table.

“That’s called working.”

And with the above, it's what people who dislike Cornette don't seem to get. The "modern" style only works with a small subset of potential fans. Obviously many fans are too cool to want grannies in the front row but wrestling has never drawn fewer fans than it does right now. The bumper TV deals only have so much time left in them (I think that applies to almost all sports), the Network for WWE has plateaued, house shows were down the ****ter even before COVID came along. Familiarity is all that's keeping things going and as that fades what'll be left?

LineOfBeauty

Deleted User wrote: »

And with the above, it's what people who dislike Cornette don't seem to get. The "modern" style only works with a small subset of potential fans. Obviously many fans are too cool to want grannies in the front row but wrestling has never drawn fewer fans than it does right now. The bumper TV deals only have so much time left in them (I think that applies to almost all sports), the Network for WWE has plateaued, house shows were down the ****ter even before COVID came along. Familiarity is all that's keeping things going and as that fades what'll be left?

Working is working. Wrestling evolves, different things become popular, but what's always driven pro wrestling is having megastar wrestlers on top in interesting stories. How you get to the point of creating meagastars and what stories work and what don't is what changes.

Cornette's issue is with the style of wrestling, but it's a natural evolution. What Heenan describes there, if you've got the right characters doing in then sure it'll be fun but the stuff that Cornette longs for is stuff that, for the most part, even by the time he debuted was starting to be considered outdated. In the same way that, when Harley Race first won the NWA World Title some (the Cornette's of the era) considered him too flashy and had too many high spots, now you would struggle to even wrap you're brain around that watching his matches back from that time. With the sheer amount of available pro wrestling, imagine a promotion working exclusively in the style of the 70's or early 80's territory stuff and trying to survive, it's impossible. You can take the good stuff from those eras, the timeless stuff and the stuff that still works, but you can't go backwards and pretend that the last 40-50 years of pro wrestling have not existed.

briany

Undertaker's talking to a lot of people at the moment, but I notice the pattern is many of these interviews are not with wrestling people. They're with Sports Illustrated or ESPN or Good Morning Britain. The exception to this has been Steve Austin, whose podcast has direct ties to WWE. I'd like to see him go on a couple of other wrestling podcasts where he's not just being asked the same questions, such as Jim Cornette's one, X-Pac's podcast or Talk is Jericho. He probably has such a loyalty to WWE that he won't do the podcasts of wrestlers who are no longer working for that company, but he's given 30 years of his life to that company, and he has a lot of old friends and colleagues he could reminisce with.

Failing that, though, get him on Joe Rogan.

Agent Coulson

I doubt it's loyalty to WWE more like a golden handcuffs contract stopping him talking to non WWE wrestling talent who have podcasts etc.

Main stream media is fine for Vince.

B.A._Baracus

Re Bobby Heenan thing...

That's pure working
The style today can be bs. Let's be honest. It's all "I hit you with boom, boom and boom then you hit me with boom, boom, boom" rinse and repeat and give no time to digest. Go 100mph and hope for the best. Not all.... Not everywhere. But if we are talking WWE it's very meh.

In truth the best style would be both. Telling a story and working. Classic 80s wrestling with the updated work-rate.

gerrybbadd

briany wrote: »

Undertaker's talking to a lot of people at the moment, but I notice the pattern is many of these interviews are not with wrestling people. They're with Sports Illustrated or ESPN or Good Morning Britain. The exception to this has been Steve Austin, whose podcast has direct ties to WWE. I'd like to see him go on a couple of other wrestling podcasts where he's not just being asked the same questions, such as Jim Cornette's one, X-Pac's podcast or Talk is Jericho. He probably has such a loyalty to WWE that he won't do the podcasts of wrestlers who are no longer working for that company, but he's given 30 years of his life to that company, and he has a lot of old friends and colleagues he could reminisce with.

Failing that, though, get him on Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan is the one! "Being dead and all is cool, but have you ever tried DMT?"

LineOfBeauty

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Re Bobby Heenan thing...

That's pure working
The style today can be bs. Let's be honest. It's all "I hit you with boom, boom and boom then you hit me with boom, boom, boom" rinse and repeat and give no time to digest. Go 100mph and hope for the best. Not all.... Not everywhere. But if we are talking WWE it's very meh.

In truth the best style would be both. Telling a story and working. Classic 80s wrestling with the updated work-rate.

I think there's absolutely a place for a well done spotfest on basically any card. It's a hot way to start a show, gets fans into it and can hook casual viewers. The best examples of these I always thought were when TNA used to open their ppvs with the X Division guys at the time, or NJPW around 2013/2014 when every major ppv would open with a Junior Tag Title match. Even though I think it was far more than a spotfest, the Young Bucks/Top Flight opener from Dynamite last week was tremendous stuff and popped a number, the show peaking in that quarter with near a million viewers.

My issue is more with somebody who sees a wrestler do a flip, or puts together a chain of moves and instantly that person decides "it's a spotfest!" when the wrestlers involved could be telling a story in the ring, just with considerably more (and more impressive) spots than they would've done in the 80's.

The White Wolf

My brain will implode if the deadman ends up with his own reality tv show. I'm highly suspicious of all these mainstream interviews.

briany

The White Wolf wrote: »

My brain will implode if the deadman ends up with his own reality tv show. I'm highly suspicious of all these mainstream interviews.

Worse than that, he's doing Cameo videos in gimmick, and he will make anyone who pays him 1000 Dollars a personalised message. I bet none of us every thought we'd hear him start up a promo using his gravelly Deadman voice with the words,

"To a wonderful husband..."

Pulling the curtain back is grand, but let's not just vaporise 30 years of mystique.

ShagNastii

Have certainly noticed all the mainstream stuff from Undertaker.

Has be officially officially announced his retire? I presume the BSK stuff at SS means he is proper gone.

JRE is a great shout, especially considering Taker is such an MMA Mark.

ShagNastii

Have certainly noticed all the mainstream stuff from Undertaker.

Has be officially officially announced his retire? I presume the BSK stuff at SS means he is proper gone.

JRE is a great shout, especially considering Taker is such an MMA Mark.

Itssoeasy

What are peoples opinions on refs been told to call matches like a shoot ? I mean if they wrestler doesn’t get their shoulder up by three in a pin then tough **** and it’s not the refs fault. I’d love if refs enforced the rules across the board like Shayna at SS. You have counts to adhere to and if you don’t then you lose.

The White Wolf

Itssoeasy wrote: »

What are peoples opinions on refs been told to call matches like a shoot ? I mean if they wrestler doesn’t get their shoulder up by three in a pin then tough **** and it’s not the refs fault. I’d love if refs enforced the rules across the board like Shayna at SS. You have counts to adhere to and if you don’t then you lose.

100% fine with it but obviously there's a problem when it comes to certain individuals. I'd laugh my ass off if the likes of Baszler and Strowman were pinned as a shoot but Vince would probably blow his gasket over it.

B.A._Baracus

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I think there's absolutely a place for a well done spotfest on basically any card. It's a hot way to start a show, gets fans into it and can hook casual viewers. The best examples of these I always thought were when TNA used to open their ppvs with the X Division guys at the time, or NJPW around 2013/2014 when every major ppv would open with a Junior Tag Title match. Even though I think it was far more than a spotfest, the Young Bucks/Top Flight opener from Dynamite last week was tremendous stuff and popped a number, the show peaking in that quarter with near a million viewers.

My issue is more with somebody who sees a wrestler do a flip, or puts together a chain of moves and instantly that person decides "it's a spotfest!" when the wrestlers involved could be telling a story in the ring, just with considerably more (and more impressive) spots than they would've done in the 80's.

I agree that there is a place for it. But just like anything else there has to be balance. Not every match can be like that on the card.

LineOfBeauty

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I agree that there is a place for it. But just like anything else there has to be balance. Not every match can be like that on the card.

At best the only shows I can think of that this could describe are GCW shows (and even that's at a push) and if somebody is only watching GCW for their wrestling fix then that person is doing wrestling wrong.

Agent Coulson

Some wrestling company needs to hire Mauro & Snoop as there commentary team.

gerrybbadd

Itssoeasy wrote: »

What are peoples opinions on refs been told to call matches like a shoot ? I mean if they wrestler doesn’t get their shoulder up by three in a pin then tough **** and it’s not the refs fault. I’d love if refs enforced the rules across the board like Shayna at SS. You have counts to adhere to and if you don’t then you lose.

Its a tough situation for the ref to be in. He's (or she's) a pretty integral part of what happens in the ring. Like, if they go to count a three count, and they go slow on the "3", or pull their hands, to compensate for the wrestler not kicking out, it looks like crap.