Is anyone else starting to become a bit excited?

grindle

sabat wrote: »

Literally anyone in the world with a pc can repeat the exact same bitcoin exercise as the "accepted one" right now.

Do it. Get people to value it for some reason.
Simple. You get rich, people have magic beans they want.
Win/Win

JohnnyFlash

Blueshoe wrote: »

What happens next?

The NYAG is saying they believe Tether was created out of thin air, then sent to exchanges where it was used to inflate the price of bitcoin. So they are buying bitcoin with fake money, while suckers are investing with real money. They then sell the bitcoin for real money and pocket the cash. That’s fraud.

The daily volume of Tether overtook bitcoin today. Which is remarkable. It’s being used to keep the price of bitcoin artificially up. They’ll clear out the longs, then crash the price to make some real money from the good folks who buy in due to FOMO.

https://i.redd.it/fqxsf5iuj3931.png

cnocbui

sabat wrote: »

Literally anyone in the world with a pc can repeat the exact same bitcoin exercise as the "accepted one" right now.

No they can't. There's the little matter of a large network of active miners and a market where people agree on and ascribe 'value'.

My house and land are worth nothing, without other people agreeing that they actually do have value.

Gold and diamonds have no value whatsoever outside of humans collectively agreeing that they do.

sabat

grindle wrote: »

Do it. Get people to value it for some reason.
Simple. You get rich, people have magic beans they want.
Win/Win

I'm just debunking one of bitcoin's foundation myths that it is a physical item with a finite supply. What the zealots are really saying is "our bitcoin has a finite supply" much like their ultimate enemies the central banksters stating that their currency is the real currency.

Bob24

makeorbrake wrote: »

I've never been happy with the Tether situation. However, what the disclosure of documents has shown us is that through all that time when they were said to be underfunded, they actually were fully funded.

[...]

By comparison with fractional reserve banking, it's nothing. That still leaves it as a risk and the lack of transparency is a risk. In a recent interview, Phil Potter (former CSO) claims that auditors won't engage with them. Complete auditing is what is missing the whole time.

Without that, it remains a risk - albeit at least it is becoming much less significant in the space as a whole.

As regards the unmentionable one's claim of a 'big story', they have been forced to work with whatever banking partners they can muster. The over-reach of the yanks is sickening. And as regards New York. Ask anyone in crypto/blockchain what they think of the regulatory regime in New York!


The Real Big Story.

18,000 people walking out the door in London and New York courtesy of Deutsche Bank. We haven't had that since 26,000 people walked out of Lehman Bros. carrying boxes.

It is hard to comment on the rest of the Tether situation as there simply isn’t enough publicly available information, but on the Tether/Binfinex loan I think this was something simply unacceptable and a huge mistake IMO.

As you said, on its own it is much less that fractional banking, but:
1. Tether is not a bank and not regulated as such.
2. Most importantly it destroyed their credibility in terms of claiming their have full USD backing for all Tethers.

In any case, while I think we all agree to say their could well be something dodgy about Bitfinex and Tether, even if it was the case I am not sure it is something which could actually destroy the crypto space or bitcoin valuation as some people thing. As a matter of fact, if Tether was to be found out to be a scam and to collapse, there would be no reason for it to alter confidence in the bitcoin blockchain - quite the opposite as the blockchain itself wouldn’t have been corrupted and issues would have been with a private actor and lack of oversight over its FIAT currency reserves. So to go back to your post, I wouldn’t say Tether is a potential Lehman Brothers of crytpo :-) (it might or might not be as dodgy as Lehman Brothers, but I tend to doubt its collapse would have the same systemic impact)

sabat

cnocbui wrote: »

No they can't. There's the little matter of a large network of active miners and a market where people agree on and ascribe 'value'.

OK then. Literally anyone can create a large network of miners and a market using the exact same protocol as the original. I was referring specifically to the matter of supply, the supposed limit of which you used as one of bitcoin's properties which give it value.

cnocbui

sabat wrote: »

OK then. Literally anyone can create a large network of miners and a market using the exact same protocol as the original. I was referring specifically to the matter of supply, the supposed limit of which you used as one of bitcoin's properties which give it value.

You can't see the wood, for the trees.

Blueshoe

Bob24 wrote: »

It is hard to comment on the rest of the Tether situation as there simply isn’t enough publicly available information, but on the Tether/Binfinex loan I think this was something simply unacceptable and a huge mistake IMO.

As you said, on its own it is much less that fractional banking, but:
1. Tether is not a bank and not regulated as such.
2. Most importantly it destroyed their credibility in terms of claiming their have full USD backing for all Tethers.

In any case, while I think we all agree to say their could well be something dodgy about Bitfinex and Tether, even if it was the case I am not sure it is something which could actually destroy the crypto space or bitcoin valuation as some people thing. As a matter of fact, if Tether was to be found out to be a scam and to collapse, there would be no reason for it to alter confidence in the bitcoin blockchain - quite the opposite as the blockchain itself wouldn’t have been corrupted and issues would have been with a private actor and lack of oversight over its FIAT currency reserves. So to go back to your post, I wouldn’t say Tether is a potential Lehman Brothers of crytpo :-) (it might or might not be as dodgy as Lehman Brothers, but I tend to doubt its collapse would have the same systemic impact)

Does anyone really care about the bitcoin Blockchain though?

I would wager the majority of people only care about the bitcoin/USD market and trying to make a few Bob.
Some of the altcoin projects are interesting but most of their valuations are speculation and not much else.

I'm in it to try make a few quid. I couldn't give a toss about Blockchain

Blueshoe

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

The NYAG is saying they believe Tether was created out of thin air, then sent to exchanges where it was used to inflate the price of bitcoin. So they are buying bitcoin with fake money, while suckers are investing with real money. They then sell the bitcoin for real money and pocket the cash. That’s fraud.

The daily volume of Tether overtook bitcoin today. Which is remarkable. It’s being used to keep the price of bitcoin artificially up. They’ll clear out the longs, then crash the price to make some real money from the good folks who buy in due to FOMO.

https://i.redd.it/fqxsf5iuj3931.png

That's interesting. If indeed it turns out to be true and is circulated as such what effect do you feel it will have on bitcoin/USD price.

I'm open to all views.

Bob24

Blueshoe wrote: »

Does anyone really care about the bitcoin Blockchain though?

I would wager the majority of people only care about the bitcoin/USD market and trying to make a few Bob.
Some of the altcoin projects are interesting but most of their valuations are speculation and not much else.

I'm in it to try make a few quid. I couldn't give a toss about Blockchain

To clarify what I meant: even if Tether collapses, the Bitcoin blockchain won’t be affected in the slightest and as a consequence no one will lose bitcoins. So sure many people do not care about the Bitcoin blockchain as a technological object, but they very much care for the fact that it is reliably keeping track of their holdings and can’t be affected be the failing of a dodgy actor in the industry.

stockshares

After the Tether print BTC is up to €12500 which is €1200 up on yesterday.

How big will the pump be this time. I notice that almost all ALTs are way down.

Given the Tether news is anyone here buying Bitcoin

q85dw7osi4lebg

stockshares wrote: »

After the Tether print BTC is up to €12500 which is €1200 up on yesterday.

How big will the pump be this time. I notice that almost all ALTs are way down.

Given the Tether news is anyone here buying Bitcoin

I'm buying most days including today, but I'm a madman.

makeorbrake

Bob24 wrote: »

It is hard to comment on the rest of the Tether situation as there simply isn’t enough publicly available information, but on the Tether/Binfinex loan I think this was something simply unacceptable and a huge mistake IMO.

They've had to improvise several times to survive. All of this is because they've had the carpet (banking) pulled out from under them several times.

That's not to say that I trust them (the whole idea of crypto is to assume no trust). I'm uneasy with a scenario where the sector is made vulnerable in this way.

Bob24 wrote: »

As you said, on its own it is much less that fractional banking, but:
1. Tether is not a bank and not regulated as such.
2. Most importantly it destroyed their credibility in terms of claiming their have full USD backing for all Tethers.

I don't disagree with either of those points.

Bob24 wrote: »

In any case, while I think we all agree to say their could well be something dodgy about Bitfinex and Tether, even if it was the case I am not sure it is something which could actually destroy the crypto space or bitcoin valuation as some people thing. As a matter of fact, if Tether was to be found out to be a scam and to collapse, there would be no reason for it to alter confidence in the bitcoin blockchain - quite the opposite as the blockchain itself wouldn’t have been corrupted and issues would have been with a private actor and lack of oversight over its FIAT currency reserves.

Go back 12 months and the sector was far more vulnerable to a complete Tether/Bitfinex collapse. However, whilst it's less so. Don't underestimate it. If you're holding crypto at that moment, it's significant enough that you're going to be taking a bath. It would be a confidence buster in the sector and would take a while for it to pick itself up and dust itself off.

The problem is that Tether plays an important role - that's needed in the sector (given the insanity with FIAT on/off ramping). If it could provide transparency that could put everyone at ease. It's hard to tease out the truth but I'd imagine there's some battle going on there between the U.S. and Bitfinex/Tether ...someone wants info sharing as regards some of their customers most likely and they're not playing ball...and maybe they can't get an auditor as they claim (as part of that complete sh1tshow).

Bob24 wrote: »

So to go back to your post, I wouldn’t say Tether is a potential Lehman Brothers of crytpo :-) (it might or might not be as dodgy as Lehman Brothers, but I tend to doubt its collapse would have the same systemic impact)

That's a misunderstanding of what I posted. I was referring to the near collapse of Deutsche Bank - with them announcing job cuts of 18,000 people. I compared that to Lehman Bros. - who closed the doors and in the process let go 26,000 people. Tether is but a minor squibble comparitively ...yet the unmentionable one can only post negativity after negativity relative to the crypto/blockchain sector.

makeorbrake

sabat wrote: »

I'm just debunking one of bitcoin's foundation myths that it is a physical item with a finite supply. What the zealots are really saying is "our bitcoin has a finite supply" much like their ultimate enemies the central banksters stating that their currency is the real currency.

Lets 'debunk' your 'bunkum', shall we? WHO here claims that Bitcoin is a physical item?

As regards finite supply, it quite clearly has - and if you don't understand that, then you've spent no more than 10 minutes trying to work out what Bitcoin is.

You are trying to suggest that all blockchain networks are one and the same. Start one tomorrow and see who will give you more than a packet of Tayto for those tokens.

There has been some debate here as regards what is technologically superior, etc. That's a valid discussion but this is not the one that you have taken up with here. Given the nascent state of cryptocurrency, there's a possibility that Bitcoin could lose favour but there will have to be real tangible reasons as to why it's unseated. Not the 'all blockchain tokens' are the same mantra you're running with.
'
As to physical items with finite supply, Bitcoin's supply is more finite than gold.

Blueshoe wrote: »

Does anyone really care about the bitcoin Blockchain though?

Plenty do. There are plenty working with the tech that don't bother with this speculative sh1tshow. I came to appreciate it in 2013 and it never dawned on me that there would be a speculative angle to it or that I'd get caught up in that. It has plenty of other facets - both in terms of cryptocurrency and for use in token economies.

Blueshoe wrote: »

I would wager the majority of people only care about the bitcoin/USD market and trying to make a few Bob.

There's no doubt that there's a large chunk of people who only have a speculative interest in it, yes. If there is a group that don't and they're the ones building out the tech, then it matters not to my mind if theres less of them. I'll take less smarter minds doing more progressive work all day every day.

Blueshoe wrote: »

I'm in it to try make a few quid. I couldn't give a toss about Blockchain

As much by accident as anything else, I find myself on both sides of that fence. However, more power to you - if that's what you're doing. There's nothing wrong with that either - nobody is holding a gun to your head - it's your choice.

Blueshoe wrote: »

That's interesting. If indeed it turns out to be true and is circulated as such what effect do you feel it will have on bitcoin/USD price.
I'm open to all views.

YOU are open to all views, yes. You'll get nothing in the way of practical outlook though. The only outlook that gets regurgitated from that source is how appalling everything is in the sector. He won't even act on this info and back his claims and short the market.
The tether thing has always been a concern. You'll see the market hasn't reacted today - because this is nothing new - it's ongoing and has been linked to every surge. I'm not alright with that but it is what it is. There are also some good long term fundamentals which I see as solid for crypto. Each to their own but don't hold out for 'open views' in this instance (from said source).

Grumpypants

Lads we started this excited thread to get away from all this boring trolling. Take it to the worried thread.

vargoo

Grumpypants wrote: »

Lads we started this excited thread to get away from all this boring trolling. Take it to the worried thread.

A bit of sally up loud fixes everything!

vargoo

LOUDER!

Bob24

makeorbrake wrote: »

That's a misunderstanding of what I posted. I was referring to the near collapse of Deutsche Bank - with them announcing job cuts of 18,000 people. I compared that to Lehman Bros. - who closed the doors and in the process let go 26,000 people. Tether is but a minor squibble comparitively ...yet the unmentionable one can only post negativity after negativity relative to the crypto/blockchain sector.

Sure I didn’t mean to imply you directly compared Tether and Lehman Brothers. But since you mentioned it, just my own statement that IMO while Tether might be as dodgy as Lehman Brothers was, i don’t see its eventual failure to have the same impact on crypto as Lehman’s had on global financial markets.

Blueshoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

Lets 'debunk' your 'bunkum', shall we? WHO here claims that Bitcoin is a physical item?

As regards finite supply, it quite clearly has - and if you don't understand that, then you've spent no more than 10 minutes trying to work out what Bitcoin is.

You are trying to suggest that all blockchain networks are one and the same. Start one tomorrow and see who will give you more than a packet of Tayto for those tokens.

There has been some debate here as regards what is technologically superior, etc. That's a valid discussion but this is not the one that you have taken up with here. Given the nascent state of cryptocurrency, there's a possibility that Bitcoin could lose favour but there will have to be real tangible reasons as to why it's unseated. Not the 'all blockchain tokens' are the same mantra you're running with.
'
As to physical items with finite supply, Bitcoin's supply is more finite than gold.



Plenty do. There are plenty working with the tech that don't bother with this speculative sh1tshow. I came to appreciate it in 2013 and it never dawned on me that there would be a speculative angle to it or that I'd get caught up in that. It has plenty of other facets - both in terms of cryptocurrency and for use in token economies.


There's no doubt that there's a large chunk of people who only have a speculative interest in it, yes. If there is a group that don't and they're the ones building out the tech, then it matters not to my mind if theres less of them. I'll take less smarter minds doing more progressive work all day every day.


As much by accident as anything else, I find myself on both sides of that fence. However, more power to you - if that's what you're doing. There's nothing wrong with that either - nobody is holding a gun to your head - it's your choice.

YOU are open to all views, yes. You'll get nothing in the way of practical outlook though. The only outlook that gets regurgitated from that source is how appalling everything is in the sector. He won't even act on this info and back his claims and short the market.
The tether thing has always been a concern. You'll see the market hasn't reacted today - because this is nothing new - it's ongoing and has been linked to every surge. I'm not alright with that but it is what it is. There are also some good long term fundamentals which I see as solid for crypto. Each to their own but don't hold out for 'open views' in this instance (from said source).

Good post. No attacking opposing personal views. If you are interested in the technology too fair play. Both on the same side

q85dw7osi4lebg

I have been using cards to buy crypto with coinbase. Yesterday at about 7pm I made a transfer for the first time from my bank account, just got confirmation that the funds are in account now. That's incredible. Takes me longer to transfer between two Irish banks.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Tipped 13k on Coinbase there.

Bob24

Addison Fancy Macrame wrote: »

I have been using cards to buy crypto with coinbase. Yesterday at about 7pm I made a transfer for the first time from my bank account, just got confirmation that the funds are in account now. That's incredible. Takes me longer to transfer between two Irish banks.

Some Irish banks are better than others (AIB and KBC seem to be the better ones) but overall they are not great indeed. Basically a bank needs to process at least one batch of SEPA transfers per day but can have many more if it wishes to (don't quote me on this, but I think up to one batch per hour). Some Irish banks tend to stick to the absolute minimum required by the regulation and only do one outbound batch every day at 5PM (and that batch will then hit the recipient's account on the morning of the next working day). AIB and KBC are doing it 2 or 3 times a day - and some foreign banks even more often.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Bob24 wrote: »

Some Irish banks are better than others (AIB and KBC seem to be the better ones) but overall they are not great indeed. Basically a bank needs to process at least one batch of SEPA transfers per day but can have many more if it wishes to (don't quote me on this, but I think up to one batch per hour). Some Irish banks tend to stick to the absolute minimum required by the regulation and only do one outbound batch every day at 5PM (and that batch will then hit the recipient's account on the morning of the next working day). AIB and KBC are doing it 2 or 3 times a day - and some foreign banks even more often.

Interesting and good to know, thanks.

Have just done a test withdrawal, will see how that fairs time wise.

Arrival

Addison Fancy Macrame wrote: »

I have been using cards to buy crypto with coinbase. Yesterday at about 7pm I made a transfer for the first time from my bank account, just got confirmation that the funds are in account now. That's incredible. Takes me longer to transfer between two Irish banks.

Really? But using your card you pay much higher fees? I've always used transfers because yeah, the money is usually on CB after 3-4 hours

Whelo79

Addison Fancy Macrame wrote: »

Interesting and good to know, thanks.

Have just done a test withdrawal, will see how that fairs time wise.

I've received withdrawals in less than 12 hours when done outside if normal banking hours and within 60 minutes when done during normal banking hours despite coinbase saying they can take up to 3 days.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Arrival wrote: »

Really? But using your card you pay much higher fees? I've always used transfers because yeah, the money is usually on CB after 3-4 hours

Don't mind paying 1-2% when the gains will be 10000 %

Bob24

Addison Fancy Macrame wrote: »

Don't mind paying 1-2% when the gains will be 10000 %

You’re the type of customer which keeps exchanges happy ;-) (not judging you it’s your business and you are fine with it, but if you look at it from the exchange’s perspective these fees are basically free money they are getting for doing nothing - not many other businesses can get away with charging an extra 1 or 2% fee for card payments)

q85dw7osi4lebg

Bob24 wrote: »

You’re the type of customer which keeps exchanges happy ;-) (not judging you it’s your business and you are fine with it, but if you look at it from the exchange’s perspective these fees are basically free money they are getting for doing nothing - not many other businesses can get away with charging an extra 1 or 2% fee for card payments)

If I keep the exchange happy maybe they'll keep me happy

q85dw7osi4lebg

Anyone think we will break $14,000 this week

vargoo

Addison Fancy Macrame wrote: »

Anyone think we will break $14,000 this week

Tomorrow
Sunday
Then another whale sells the mother load
Aint no point asking that for 3 pages of guessing

Bob24

Addison Fancy Macrame wrote: »

Anyone think we will break $14,000 this week

I give it a 30% chance ... purely based on my personal sentiment and looking into my crystal ball to be clear about my sources! (or lack of)
I think it will be attempted again and it will depend on how much profit booking comes in as a reaction.

Also of note: BTC dominance is now over 65%.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Addison Fancy Macrame wrote: »

Interesting and good to know, thanks.

Have just done a test withdrawal, will see how that fairs time wise.

I actually can't believe it, 3 hours later it's in my account.

How does this make any sense!

Amazing, fair play Coinbase.

makeorbrake

This is pure dope! (excuse the pun). And they say crypto is the realm of criminals and drug dealers!

This is why I'm so much against KYC/AML. None of that **** matters at the right level. It just causes a world of pain and friction for regular people.

vargoo

Down €700 in an hour or something

Arrival

Addison Fancy Macrame wrote: »

Arrival wrote: »

Really? But using your card you pay much higher fees? I've always used transfers because yeah, the money is usually on CB after 3-4 hours

Don't mind paying 1-2% when the gains will be 10000 %

But that few quid going on card fees would get you a lil bit extra crypto if you'd just use the fund transfer instead, which means even higher ROI down the line. And you can save on fees even more if you use CB Pro apparently

JJJJNR

Parachute needed!

q85dw7osi4lebg

Arrival wrote: »

But that few quid going on card fees would get you a lil bit extra crypto if you'd just use the fund transfer instead, which means even higher ROI down the line. And you can save on fees even more if you use CB Pro apparently

I know I know sure that's why I started the transfer thing today. Very impressed with the speed.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Back to where we were 24 hours ago, time to buy more.

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

This is pure dope! (excuse the pun). And they say crypto is the realm of criminals and drug dealers!

This is why I'm so much against KYC/AML. None of that **** matters at the right level. It just causes a world of pain and friction for regular people.

Crypto is an excellent vehicle for criminality, tax evaders, bribery and fraud for electronic payments, especially
private, untraceable cryptos

KYC and AML is critical, otherwise you get people and business losing billions (more) to scams, fraud, laundering, etc

As for the news story, it's a ship used (abused) for drug shipments, this happens every other week

Bob24

Dohnjoe wrote: »

As for the news story, it's a ship used (abused) for drug shipments, this happens every other week

I’m no drug trafficking specialist so I don’t have any valuable personal comment on how usual this specific story is, but the comment of the US attorney quoted in the article is pretty clear in that "a seizure of a vessel this massive is complicated and unprecedented — but it is appropriate because the circumstances here are also unprecedented".

Agreed that KYC and AML checks are definitely required though.

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Crypto is an excellent vehicle for criminality, tax evaders, bribery and fraud for electronic payments, especially
private, untraceable cryptos

KYC and AML is critical, otherwise you get people and business losing billions (more) to scams, fraud, laundering, etc

As for the news story, it's a ship used (abused) for drug shipments, this happens every other week

Dohnjoe - I know that we are not going to agree on this but that's fine. :-)

I detest KYC/AML. It's caused me no end of problems and is doing so right now. And the process is a joke. If criminal pursuits is your game, then you'll be right up to speed in how to play the paper shuffle. The rest of us just get caught up in it.

Will the world implode if we don't have it? They sell it to you on that basis but it's bs. Other than that, the system is as much about financial surveillance as it is about anything else.

As regards it 'just being a ship', I don't agree. And we won't be agreeing on this subject as its one I feel very strongly about.

As regards crypto being the perfect vehicle for criminal this n that - I don't care! Criminals use cars - should we ban cars? The same nonsense was dragged out when the web emerged....all we heard was that it was the home of pedo's (and other criminals of course).

Sometimes things can be inherently good for society generally and also be used by criminals. The kneejerk shouldn't be to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Bob24

makeorbrake wrote: »

I detest KYC/AML. It's caused me no end of problems and is doing so right now. And the process is a joke. If criminal pursuits is your game, then you'll be right up to speed in how to play the paper shuffle. The rest of us just get caught up in it.

Will the world implode if we don't have it? They sell it to you on that basis but it's bs. Other than that, the system is as much about financial surveillance as it is about anything else.

As regards it 'just being a ship', I don't agree. And we won't be agreeing on this subject as its one I feel very strongly about.

Agree that KYC and AML policies are annoying and not always the most effective, but I don’t think it is a reason to conclude they should be discarded.

Personal annoyance is something we sometimes need to accept if it serves the general interest, those policies as they stand still have some level of efficiency, and in any case if they are not satisfactory they could be improved rather than discarded.

On the ship thing, yeah I think anyone reading the article in full will see it is not just the usual catch the police would have every week and that the scale is massive and unusual.

vargoo

Addison Fancy Macrame wrote: »

Back to where we were 24 hours ago, time to buy more.

It was to high then!

makeorbrake

Bob24 wrote: »

Agree that KYC and AML policies are annoying and not always the most effective, but I don’t think it is a reason to conclude they should be discarded.

Personal annoyance is something we sometimes need to accept if it serves the general interest, those policies as they stand still have some level of efficiency, and in any case if they are not satisfactory they could be improved rather than discarded.

Disagree entirely but that's alright. I'm not talking about 'annoyance' - far beyond annoyance. ...not that annoyance should be acceptable either. It makes for friction in processes. Furthermore, it's a case for personal privacy and civil liberty.

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

I detest KYC/AML. It's caused me no end of problems and is doing so right now. And the process is a joke. If criminal pursuits is your game, then you'll be right up to speed in how to play the paper shuffle. The rest of us just get caught up in it.

They are critical. We've seen what happens when financial institutions don't have sufficient controls, likewise crypto exchanges. I'm not fond of it either, but that's irrelevant

Will the world implode if we don't have it? They sell it to you on that basis but it's bs. Other than that, the system is as much about financial surveillance as it is about anything else.

It's not "sold" to anyone, it's an essential security and safekeeping measure, it actually protects the other customers, aka yourself

As regards it 'just being a ship', I don't agree. And we won't be agreeing on this subject as its one I feel very strongly about.

Let's be honest here, it's because the ship is ultimately owned by JP Morgan

As regards crypto being the perfect vehicle for criminal this n that - I don't care! Criminals use cars - should we ban cars? The same nonsense was dragged out when the web emerged....all we heard was that it was the home of pedo's (and other criminals of course).

A dark, private, untraceable currency is a better vehicle for criminals than a traceable currency.

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's not "sold" to anyone, it's an essential security and safekeeping measure

I told you we won't be agreeing on this. It IS sold to the public and it is NOT essential for security. You disagree and that's fine but that's where it ends.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

A dark, private, untraceable currency is a better vehicle for criminals than a traceable currency.

I don't give a fiddlers - that shouldn't stand in the way of ordinary people going about their business. Crime can be fought in the traditional sense without the financial surveillance, process friction, etc.


Financial Surveilance & KYC is Dangerous

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

I told you we won't be agreeing on this. It IS sold to the public and it is NOT essential for security. You disagree and that's fine but that's where it ends.

It is essential for financial institutions otherwise they don't get their license to operate. For crypto exchanges, not sure if it's essential yet from a legal perspective, but there aren't many (any?) left without KYC for obvious reasons

I don't give a fiddlers - that shouldn't stand in the way of ordinary people going about their business. Crime can be fought in the traditional sense without the financial surveillance, process friction, etc.

For private cryptos, those minting their own private untraceable currencies will inevitably attract the attention of criminals and fraudsters - and as such will also attract the attention to regulators whose mandate it is to protect the public from said criminals and fraudsters

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It is essential for financial institutions otherwise they don't get their license to operate. For crypto exchanges, not sure if it's essential yet from a legal perspective, but there aren't many (any?) left without KYC for obvious reasons

For private cryptos, those minting their own private untraceable currencies will inevitably attract the attention of criminals and fraudsters - and as such will also attract the attention to regulators whose mandate it is to protect the public from said criminals and fraudsters

All of that pre-supposes that we should have KYC and AML and I contend that we should not (and i don't mean in relation to crypto exchanges - i mean right across the board).

https://youtu.be/nkPw6A7lIY8

Bob24

makeorbrake wrote: »

Disagree entirely but that's alright. I'm not talking about 'annoyance' - far beyond annoyance. ...not that annoyance should be acceptable either. It makes for friction in processes. Furthermore, it's a case for personal privacy and civil liberty.

But again, whether you call it annoyance or friction, it is sometimes acceptable as long as it brings some benefit.

For exemple security checks at the entrance of a stadium before a football match can cause annoyance and friction for people getting i , but if only once they do prevent a bomb from being brought into the stadium then they that friction becomes acceptable.

makeorbrake

Bob24 wrote: »

But again, whether you call it annoyance or friction, it is sometimes acceptable as long as it brings some benefit.

For exemple security checks at the entrance of a stadium before a football match can cause annoyance and friction for people getting i , but if only once they do prevent a bomb from being brought into the stadium then they that friction becomes acceptable.

We didn't have AML/KYC until recent history. The world got along just fine without it. That's what you've been sold. I don't expect to be in the majority view camp on this one - but it's highly unlikely I'll be seeing this any other way.

Other than that, it goes far beyond annoyance. I could write a book on it but I'm not going to make disclosures here or take the discussion down that rabbit hole any further.