AGS to allow members to wear religous and ethnic garb while on duty

ohnonotgmail

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Can you please Google the meaning of the word evolved. You keep using it incorrectly.

It is disappointing that i have to do this for a grown adult but hey ho.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evolved

I have bolded the appropriate definitions.

verb (used with object), e·volved, e·volv·ing.
to develop gradually: to evolve a scheme.
to give off or emit, as odors or vapors.
verb (used without object), e·volved, e·volv·ing.
to come forth gradually into being; develop; undergo evolution: The whole idea evolved from a casual remark.
to gradually change one's opinions or beliefs: candidates who are still evolving on the issue; an evolved feminist mom.
Biology . to develop by a process of evolution to a different adaptive state or condition: The human species evolved from an ancestor that was probably arboreal.

ohnonotgmail

CB19Kevo wrote: »

This is bonkers!
Uniform should be the same across the force.

We should be moving away from religion interfering with public services..

All for inclusion and diversity within the Gardai but standards need to be maintained.

The wearing of a hijab or turban does not interfere with public services.

PokeHerKing

ohnonotgmail wrote:

It is disappointing that i have to do this for a grown adult but hey ho.

It means to advance. Reintroducing religious doctrine at a state level is regression.

So stop saying evolved when referring to AGS regressive announcement.

AtomicHorror

Mooooo wrote: »

What's the percentage breakdown in the population in general?

About 64,000 Muslims and 2000 Sikhs, but only the women would be relevant in the case of Muslims, and I think mostly just men in the case of Sikhs.

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

It is. Just not the answer you hoped for.
Im against all manifestations/expressions of faith for public servants.

(They arent being conscripted and having my secular view forced on them. They can choose not to join...)

Again, no, it does not answer my question, which was not about overt expressions, but about mandatory elements of a faith.

Would you consider it acceptable if a Catholic was required to break a mandatory aspect of their faith, overt or not, in order to join the Gardai?

Cordell

suicide_circus wrote: »

i look forward to the ranks of hijab clad gardai. allah knows it will make the muslim community trust the police more.

As a recent immigrant myself I find this approach detrimental to both society and immigrants. I would say it's better not to make amends to make the society fit the immigrants, but make it as easy as possible for immigrants to integrate. If I don't trust a Garda because of differences in religion and ethnicity, then the problem lies with me, not with them.

suicide_circus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Presumably, most women I've met who wear hijab also wear trousers in a work environment.

bubblypop wrote: »

Why wouldn't they?

i suspect they may be immodest

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

i suspect they may be immodest

Trousers?
How?

ohnonotgmail

PokeHerKing wrote: »

It means to advance. Reintroducing religious doctrine at a state level is regression.

So stop saying evolved when referring to AGS regressive announcement.

Nobody has reintroduced religious doctrine. I suspect you dont actually know what that means.

AtomicHorror

suicide_circus wrote: »

i suspect they may be immodest

Evidently the Muslim women in question don't see it that way, and I guess if they join the Gardai, they'll still consider trousers to be fine.

PokeHerKing wrote: »

The hijab or any sort of head covering predates Islam. It is used as a means of oppression against women in a lot of Muslim countries. The religion side of it just makes it easier to enforce.

Many aspects of many religions predate the religions. Every religion has elements used to oppress women. We can inform them of this, argue against religion on all reasonable fronts. At the end of the day, they still have their own choice to make. Many Muslim women are free to choose and still wear hijab. I know one family where one sister wears hijab and the other does not. They get on fine with each other and with their own parents.

suicide_circus

bubblypop wrote: »

Trousers?
How?

have you ever been walking and found youself behind a ban garda on the beat?

AtomicHorror

suicide_circus wrote: »

have you ever been walking and found youself behind a ban garda on the beat?

Please stop touching yourself.

suicide_circus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Please stop touching yourself.

so you do know what im on about

AtomicHorror

suicide_circus wrote: »

so you do know what im on about

I get what you're implying. I've always found the AGS uniform really unflattering on everyone, but yeah, after several posts, I can now see you feel differently about it.

There's another thread you might like... Garda sacked... bonnet of the car, etc.

topper75

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Please stop touching yourself.

What to do? If you cuff him it'll only make it worse.

suicide_circus

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I get what you're implying. I've always found the AGS uniform really unflattering on everyone, but yeah, after several posts, I can now see you feel differently about it.

There's another thread you might like... Garda sacked... bonnet of the car, etc.

haha...yeah.

point is, i dont see the "Templemore Trailer" being an acceptable look for one who cant serve the state without a hair covering.

nice_guy80

Shield wrote: »

The time is ripe for Pastafarians to seek permission to wear a colander on duty.

I'd like to see an equality case taken, just for the craic

Alrigghtythen

They should wear the uniform properly and forget about the religious add ons.

Kivaro

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The wearing of a hijab or turban does not interfere with public services.

Yes, it does.

It's called a uniform for a reason. It should be the same for all members of the police force.
Take for example, a Muslim from Pakistan/Kashmir living in Ireland who was a victim of an assault by a person known to them of Indian descent.
The perception by the victim (irrespective of it being right or wrong) changes immediately if the Garda arriving at the scene of the crime was dressed in a turban.

The exact opposite also holds true. An Indian victim of crime living in Ireland and their perception of a Garda arriving dressed in a hijab.

The uniform should be the same for everyone. It's ridiculous to regress back to the days of pandering to the religious elements in society.
I would like to see a substantial increase in the Gardai of all nationalities living in Ireland. It may break the current status quo of mistrust in the force.

Mr. CooL ICE

What if it was assault by someone with a bogger accent? If that's such an issue, then every single victim of assault is currently pretty screwed

Lefty Bicek

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Time moves on and the country has evolved.

Token gestures do not constitute 'evolution'.

Where would that end ? Must we too have a 'Turban Victory' ?

Force Carrier

If Christian Gardaí get to go around wearing crucifixes this could have the unexpected double benefit of helping deal with Vampires.

Kivaro

Mark Rippetoe wrote: »

What if it was assault by someone with a bogger accent? If that's such an issue, then every single victim of assault is currently pretty screwed

Mark, I'm not sure if you are deliberately ignoring the contentious history of the groups that I used in my example, because the ethnicity was picked for a reason. There will be mistrust by victims due to the visual appearance of religious clothing on Gardai. This is unacceptable even if it is the case for a small number of people.

Now they are talking on RTE news about Sheikh members of the Gardai being allowed to carry the Kirpan (religious knife) with them while on duty. This is becoming absurd.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

AtomicHorror wrote: »

"Where's your turban?" - and it'd be a genuine question.

Why? Turbans aren't compulsory for Hindus, you are perhaps mistaking them for Sikhs.

A Hindu Garda would just be in standard uniform.

PokeHerKing

ohnonotgmail wrote:

Nobody has reintroduced religious doctrine. I suspect you dont actually know what that means.

Ha the irony!!

One eyed Jack

Kivaro wrote: »

Mark, I'm not sure if you are deliberately ignoring the contentious history of the groups that I used in my example, because the ethnicity was picked for a reason. There will be mistrust by victims due to the visual appearance of religious clothing on Gardai. This is unacceptable even if it is the case for a small number of people.

Now they are talking on RTE news about Sheikh members of the Gardai being allowed to carry the Kirpan (religious knife) with them while on duty. This is becoming absurd.

And there will be greater trust in the Gardai of people from their own communities - swings and roundabouts.

As for the idea of them carrying knives, unless they plan on using them to injure a person, they’re of no danger to anyone.

beejee

Imagine being in india/Pakistan and you get pulled over for openly displayed alcohol (for arguments sake)

Up comes the police person, an Irish person wearing a giant shamrock on his head.

You'd instantly think "sure he knows the score with the f'd up rules in this country, I have good odds here!"

Whole idea is downright bizarre. We've become so used to bizarre here we don't see the forest for the trees anymore.

kowloon

judeboy101 wrote: »

Catholic ags will be allowed to wear a crucifix, you won't be able to discriminate on this rule. Pastafarian ags will be able to wear a colander. Klingon ags will be able to carry a baath'leth .

This changes everything, I'm now strongly in favour of the idea.

Beechwoodspark

I vary from the extremes

Either compliance to the 1950s standard

Or else

Full burka, full facial tatts, novelty moustaches, Native American headdress, leather harness, clown shoes, whatever

recedite

In a statement, police said the decision ”will encourage women from Muslim communities, who may previously not have seen policing as a career option, to reconsider

Muslim women aren't supposed to have careers. They don't wear hijabs at home, they only wear them when they go out in public, where strange men might try to get a look at them.


How does all that square with a female Garda breaking up a drunken brawl at midnight in Temple Bar?"
I'm thinking "the powers that be" haven't really thought this through properly. Its just a bit of pc virtue signalling nonsense.

cursai

If the Sikhs etc won't have to wear the hat on duty then why should the non religious Guard.

AtomicHorror

topper75 wrote: »

What to do? If you cuff him it'll only make it worse.

:pac:

Liliana Straight Fruit wrote: »

Why? Turbans aren't compulsory for Hindus, you are perhaps mistaking them for Sikhs.

A Hindu Garda would just be in standard uniform.

Please read in context! I know the difference between Hindus and Sikhs!

suicide_circus wrote: »

haha...yeah.

point is, i dont see the "Templemore Trailer" being an acceptable look for one who cant serve the state without a hair covering.

I guess that'll be their call- but since plenty of them already wear work trousers, I don't see an issue.

AtomicHorror

recedite wrote: »

Muslim women aren't supposed to have careers. They don't wear hijabs at home, they only wear them when they go out in public, where strange men might try to get a look at them.

Hijab doesn't stop men looking- unless they desperately need to see hair? You're thinking of niqab, or I guess burqa? Don't see many of those in Ireland.

Plenty of Muslim women clearly have careers in Ireland, so why make such a claim?

recedite wrote: »

How does all that square with a female Garda breaking up a drunken brawl at midnight in Temple Bar?"
I'm thinking "the powers that be" haven't really thought this through properly. Its just a bit of pc virtue signalling nonsense.

You've thought it through about as far as as "Muslim women aren't allowed work", so I don't think you're well positioned to make this claim either.

slipperyox

I see no mention of being allowed the colander for pastafarians. This also must be addressed.

slipperyox

Sorry, just saw ot posted already..
goes to show how many of us there is

MrFresh

recedite wrote: »

Muslim women aren't supposed to have careers. They don't wear hijabs at home, they only wear them when they go out in public, where strange men might try to get a look at them.


How does all that square with a female Garda breaking up a drunken brawl at midnight in Temple Bar?"
I'm thinking "the powers that be" haven't really thought this through properly. Its just a bit of pc virtue signalling nonsense.

Yeah, it's a little known fact that the Garda hat is made from a magic material that is imbued with the fighting essence of Jet Li and the authority of Clint Eastwood. In a fight it creates an impenetrable barrier around the wearer's head that protects from harm. I mean, can a hijab even be made from the same material? Will it work the same way?

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Hijab doesn't stop men looking- unless they desperately need to see hair? You're thinking of niqab, or I guess burqa? Don't see many of those in Ireland.

Plenty of Muslim women clearly have careers in Ireland, so why make such a claim?



You've thought it through about as far as as "Muslim women aren't allowed work", so I don't think you're well positioned to make this claim either.

Recedite can't comprehend the idea of a woman wearing it by choice.

kowloon

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I vary from the extremes

Either compliance to the 1950s standard

Or else

Full burka, full facial tatts, novelty moustaches, Native American headdress, leather harness, clown shoes, whatever

Do you mean away with the bright jackets and stab vests and all?

Beechwoodspark

kowloon wrote: »

Do you mean away with the bright jackets and stab vests and all?

I do indeed

AtomicHorror

Kivaro wrote: »

Take for example, a Muslim from Pakistan/Kashmir living in Ireland who was a victim of an assault by a person known to them of Indian descent.
The perception by the victim (irrespective of it being right or wrong) changes immediately if the Garda arriving at the scene of the crime was dressed in a turban.

I don't think the turban would make them feel that way if a pasty-white freckled fella from Mullingar is wearing it. They might find it weird, but they're not going to be afraid, are they? So are we really suggesting the headgear is the potential problem in this scenario?

beejee

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I do indeed

Garai should have their uniforms designed around their county colours, Dublin colours for Dublin, louth for louth etc.

That way, it will encourage Dubliners to become more active in their Dublin communities.

Then it should be subdivided into templeogue uniforms for garda hailing from templeogue.

Then, it should be subdivided by individual family crest uniforms, so as to encourage members of that particular family to become active and engaged within their own family.

Makes perfect sense! (depending on the century you'd like to inhabit)

Beechwoodspark

beejee wrote: »

Garai should have their uniforms designed around their county colours, Dublin colours for Dublin, louth for louth etc.

That way, it will encourage Dubliners to become more active in their Dublin communities.

Then it should be subdivided into templeogue uniforms for garda hailing from templeogue.

Then, it should be subdivided by individual family crest uniforms, so as to encourage members of that particular family to become active and engaged within their own family.

Makes perfect sense! (depending on the century you'd like to inhabit)

What about my other suggestion? Everything and anything allowed

Alrigghtythen

What good are gardai who'll have no power of arrest? Everyone knows they have to be wearing a hat

recedite

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Hijab doesn't stop men looking- unless they desperately need to see hair? You're thinking of niqab, or I guess burqa? Don't see many of those in Ireland.

Plenty of Muslim women clearly have careers in Ireland, so why make such a claim?

In 1950's ireland married women were not supposed to work, unless they were poverty stricken. The civil service and other reputable employers automatically sacked them. It was the culture at the time (note- the culture, not the religion) Its a cultural thing for most muslims that the men work, and the women stay at home. Not all of them comply, but most do.


I said muslim women are not supposed to work, even though the less religious ones do. But if they are less religious, why would they need to be accommodated with a special religious uniform?


Is the hijab even a religious garb? I don't think so. I think its cultural.
If they won't accept our culture, why should I take orders from them?


Hijab is modesty attire. If its not to protect their modesty from staring men, what is it for? The rain?

Jamie2k9

Terrible day for AGS.

Its a shame to see Ireland going down the same road as the UK, it won't end well.

PokeHerKing

So can Sikhs not work construction or become firemen? Or will there be an announcement regarding those as well?

MrFresh

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Terrible day for AGS.

Its a shame to see Ireland going down the same road as the UK, it won't end well.

Hopefully the hard right won't get a hold here as they have there.

PokeHerKing wrote: »

So can Sikhs not work construction or become firemen? Or will there be an announcement regarding those as well?

I can't see essential protective equipment being exempt.

PokeHerKing

MrFresh wrote:

I can't see essential protective equipment being exempt.

Cause that would be silly yeah?

MrFresh

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Cause that would be silly yeah?

Yeah. Unless they come up with some kind of hardened turban. The Garda hat is for appearance only. Hard hats aren't.

beejee

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

What about my other suggestion? Everything and anything allowed

Quoted you by mistake

My point is that it's a stupidly backward idea to allow individuality within an essential national institution that is based on justice being blind and equal.

Hypocrisy is rife these days. Here's another general example. Why are accommodations always being made to the least accommodating people?

How would these nations react to the prominent display of a gigantic crucifix by their police forces, for the sole reason to encourage a tiny minority of Christians to police the vast majority non-Christian population?

Are there conversations on national Saudi broadcasts about whether Irish people should be allowed carry a hurley in the saudi police force?

Why aren't there similar accommodations for shinto people here, or Buddhists, or Wiccans?

Some countries must at all times be submissive to every outside influence under the sun, while most countries just laugh at the idea and do whatever they want? What's the craic?

Edgware

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

What about my other suggestion? Everything and anything allowed

Surely religious festivals throughout the year should influence uniform selection.
Lent Easter
Ramadan Yom Kippur
Halloween
National Klingon Remembrance day
We must be inclusive

Or as our esteemed President would say
" We must have a National discourse about inclusiveness"

One eyed Jack

PokeHerKing wrote: »

So can Sikhs not work construction or become firemen? Or will there be an announcement regarding those as well?

There has been an exemption for Sikhs to wear the turban in the UK construction industry since 1989? What would make you think it wouldn’t apply here?


Sikh hard hat exemption extended beyond construction