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neutral?

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  • 04-04-2019 11:02am
    #1
    sundodger5
    Registered Users Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭


    Hi all, looking to add some smart switches to my home automation setup.
    Many of these require a neutral which based on research is not usually found at the switch location in Ireland.
    However when i opened up one of mine i see what looks like a neutral.
    See attached pic.
    Is that a neutral?
    Thanks.


«13

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    #2
    kramer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭kramer1


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Hi all, looking to add some smart switches to my home automation setup.
    Many of these require a neutral which based on research is not usually found at the switch location in Ireland.
    However when i opened up one of mine i see what looks like a neutral.
    See attached pic.
    Is that a neutral?
    Thanks.

    Yeah blue wires in the connector are the neutral s


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    #3
    adrian92
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭adrian92


    Sometimes the colours are not used correctly.
    Maybe one is a live feed in and the other is the switch wire out. So, No neutral, I suspect -others may correct me


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    #4
    wotzgoingon
    Registered Users Posts: 14,309 ✭✭✭✭wotzgoingon


    adrian92 wrote: »
    Sometimes the colours are not used correctly.
    Maybe one is a live feed in and the other is the switch wire out. So, No neutral, I suspect -others may correct me

    The blue are neutral.


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    #5
    alan4cult
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭alan4cult


    Yes don't assume always that blue is neutral, I've seen blue used for earth neutral and switched live and in very rare cases live.

    In this scenario however blue looks neutral. You could test the cables for certainty.


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    #6
    Phileas Frog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Phileas Frog


    wotzgoingon wrote: »
    The blue are neutral.

    The blue _should be_ neutral.


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    #7
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Phileas Frog wrote: »
    The blue _should be_ neutral.

    Must be.


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    #8
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Must be.

    It is always best to check.
    As we have seen on this forum many times what "must" be done is not always what is done.


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    #9
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    2011 wrote: »
    It is always best to check.
    As we have seen on this forum many times what "must" be done is not always what is done.
    I'm absolutely not disagreeing with that. What I was pointing out was that it is not simply desirable that blue be used for neutral, but an absolute requirement.


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    #10
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    I'm absolutely not disagreeing with that. What I was pointing out was that it is not simply desirable that blue be used for neutral, but an absolute requirement.

    And what about on a job where a core is heat shrunk blue, as a phase colour. The Risteard universe implodes perhaps?


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    #11
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Must be.

    In an existing installation, how does "must be" apply?

    I don`t expect an answer of course. You never answer anything that`s not answered in the rule book:pac:


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    #12
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    I'm absolutely not disagreeing with that. What I was pointing out was that it is not simply desirable that blue be used for neutral, but an absolute requirement.

    With respect this “absolute requirement” has changed over the years.

    Neutrals were black in the past and blue was the third phase. This is still the case in many installations.


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    #13
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    2011 wrote: »
    With respect this “absolute requirement” has changed over the years.

    Neutrals were black in the past and blue was the third phase. This is still the case in many installations.

    What it must or must not be has little relevance to the op here anyway.

    We can say in normal circumstances when going to wire a house, that the neutrals must be blue.

    Not sure that saying a blue in an existing installation must be neutral, is helpful to the question being asked.


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    #14
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Sometimes folk daisychain the neutral above ceiling from light to light and merely drop 2 browns (a live and a wire made live by it by the switch)

    Talking to an electrician recently and he says the proper way is to drop both live and neutral (and earth, for metal switch covers)

    Put it this way, if you connect the blue and live brown to a spare ceiling rose (for instance) and the bulb lights up then you have a live and a neutral.


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    #15
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Bruthal wrote: »
    And what about on a job where a core is heat shrunk blue, as a phase colour. The Risteard universe implodes perhaps?

    You can be as flippant as you like, but the reality is that if the work does not comply with the Wiring Rules then it cannot be certified as such.


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    #16
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,596 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    You can be as flippant as you like, but the reality is that if the work does not comply with the Wiring Rules then it cannot be certified as such.

    The OP is trying to identify a neutral, not certify an installation.
    The neutrals in this installation may or may not be blue.

    In the real world many certified installations in Ireland do not have blue neutrals. In some cases this is because black was the appropriate colour at the time.


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    #17
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    its t&e without a coated earth so its pre 2013, the backbox is held in with squarelocks so its a safe bet to guess its post 2003 , because of the earth sheath coating and the join not done with tape im going to guess this guy had some standards.

    in all likelihood this is one t&e for supply and one to the fitting , but put a voltmeter accross it and see if you get something,

    blue should always mean neutral but all of the other circumstances around this one point to it being neutral, the same could not be assumed in all cases and test equipment should always be used.


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    #18
    sundodger5
    Registered Users Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    build was around 2009, going to put a voltmeter on it, but just for certainty what am i looking for?


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    #19
    kramer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭kramer1


    230 v or thereabouts about s between brown and blue .


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    #20
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    You can be as flippant as you like, but the reality is that if the work does not comply with the Wiring Rules then it cannot be certified as such.
    So, when you see a photo of a blue core, it always must be a neutral?

    It's curious how you just post out a rule, in answer to a question about an EXISTING installation. And your post was of nothing more than a rule quote. And poor, if you believe all blue cores must be neutrals, purely based on this rules obsession. People don't have to be obsessed with rules and terminology to fully comply with them. But it seems it does allow them to be less shackled in assessing photos such as the OPs one.


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    #21
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Anyway OP, it's very likely it is the neutral. Posters are just pointing out that it's not something that can be assumed beyond doubt. Multimeter between brown and blue should show around 230v. Also brown to earth should be tested and show the same. Then blue to earth should be 0v. That would show it is likely N.


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    #22
    Risteard81
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Bruthal wrote: »
    So, when you see a photo of a blue core, it always must be a neutral?
    How in the name of God do you interpret a remark that a conductor is REQUIRED to be a neutral if it is a certain colour to mean that it actually is a neutral?

    Your silliness seems to know no bounds. The fact remains that the Rules mandate that neutral conductors be coloured blue throughout their length (notwithstanding 7-core or greater cables).


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    #23
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    How in the name of God do you interpret a remark that a conductor is REQUIRED to be a neutral if it is a certain colour to mean that it actually is a neutral
    (Edit: No point asking you anything....)


    Probably when another poster told the op that the blue in his photo "should be" a neutral after another poster said it is a neutral, and you posted two words "Must be"


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    #24
    wotzgoingon
    Registered Users Posts: 14,309 ✭✭✭✭wotzgoingon


    Lads you are all going over the top. The blue in the picture in the OP is a neutral. Yes some people do not stick to colour coding but as I just said in the picture it is a neutral.

    What would you be joining the live connection there anyway?


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    #25
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    wotzgoingon wrote: »
    Lads you are all going over the top. The blue in the picture in the OP is a neutral. Yes some people do not stick to colour coding but as I just said in the picture it is a neutral.

    What would you be joining the live connection there anyway?

    You can't say for sure it is a neutral unless you test it

    It should be, the rules say it must be and all the rest

    Just test it, with a tester thats known to be working properly


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    #26
    sundodger5
    Registered Users Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    First thanks for all the replies.
    I appreciate the fact that it should be a neutral but may not be.
    Threw the voltmeter on it this evening. Blue and Brown mains voltage. Blue and Earth Zero Volts. Brown and Earth Mains Voltage.
    Its a Neutral.


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    #27
    kramer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭kramer1


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    First thanks for all the replies.
    I appreciate the fact that it should be a neutral but may not be.
    Threw the voltmeter on it this evening. Blue and Brown mains voltage. Blue and Earth Zero Volts. Brown and Earth Mains Voltage.
    Its a Neutral.
    Might be an earth


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    #28
    sundodger5
    Registered Users Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    would two earths be normal?


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    #29
    wotzgoingon
    Registered Users Posts: 14,309 ✭✭✭✭wotzgoingon


    Ah here....


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    #30
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    No sillyness now. reciteard will be back.


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    #31
    wotzgoingon
    Registered Users Posts: 14,309 ✭✭✭✭wotzgoingon


    Look if your not an electrician do not be giving advice to people. I thought that would be common knowledge.


    The second post in this thread said it was a neutral which was correct I mentioned it several times that it was.

    What the hell would you be joining a live there for anyway the live feed is already there connected to the dimmer switch.

    Now two earths in the same wire, come on lads leave it to those who know.


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