Potentially life threatening! Alternator failed resulting in very heavy steering...

DJ WIPEOUT

Hi all,

2005 Toyota Avensis, 127 thousand kms travelled

Granted the car is 'old' at 14 years, however, with a low distance travelled relatively speaking!

Regardless of the debate around it's age and warranties etc, I would like to know others thoughts on how an alternator failing could not be considered to potentially life threatening by an authorised dealer when it results in very heavy steering!

I was driving to work (normally I cycle hence the low kms) one day and all of a sudden the car's steering became very heavy at a set of lights while waiting to take a turn at a junction. There were no warning lights nor any effect to the electrics as they were all still on.

I pulled the steering wheel with force over to the left in order to veer the car over to the side of the road. When I turned the car off the electrics would no longer work and the steering remained very heavy.

Authorised dealer has said car is fine now that the alternator has been replaced with a reconditioned one.

My problem is I don't feel comfortable driving the car on the M50 at 100-120kms if the steering goes again due to electrical failure...

Is this a manufacturing defect?

wonski

Steering was there, but you lost power steering.

It isn't a real safety issue, more like inconvenience.

Also the higher the speed the less heavy the steering would become. Its only at low speed that you would feel it heavy.

Car is fixed, unlikely to happen anytime soon with reconditioned unit.

Del2005

The car will still steer perfectly fine you just need to use more muscles, before power assisted steering became ubiquitous this is what people had to do. The faster you are travelling the less you'll notice the lack of assistance.

James Forde

Same thing has happened to me on 3 occasions now with my Focus.

Keep an eye out for warning signs on the dash as it will usually give you and indication if the alternator is about to die. Abs light/Handbrake light come on, all dials stop working etc.

Scary when it happens the first time mind you.

Midnight_EG

You should definitely try Toyota for a warranty claim on this, and keep us in the loop...they might not charge you

theteal

Is an alternator that dies after 14 years of use a manufacturing defect?

Tacitus Kilgore

Frightening more so than life threatening, car can still steer perfectly, just requires a little more effort while moving, and a lot more effort if the car is stationary.

Alanstrainor

Alternators are not for life. The dealer identified the fault, fixed it so really you should be good for years to come. You can worry all you like, but I can't see why it would fail again any time soon. And honestly the car would be much easier to steer at speed anyway, the greater the speed the easier it is to steer. It seems to have failed when you were stopped, which would take quite some force to turn the wheel.

Anyway, it was an annoying situation but nothing to worry about. And here's a top tip forget going to the dealer with a 14 year old car, find a good independent local to you and save a fortune.

Tacklebox

Happened to me on an old golf it was scary enough, as I was actually slowed down coming into a roundabout.

seamus

Hah, the things we take for granted.

It's my recollection though that steering wheels before power steering used to be bigger, this would make it easier to turn them.

Am I right, or is that in my head? If it is the case, then it would definitely make the loss of power steering even worse.

my3cents

I don't really see how this happened?

I assume the OP's car stalled or something and wasn't running when the steering went heavy?

And what about the brakes? They normally need much more pressure to operate when the engine is off.

Edit> This answers my question third post down https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/141587-avensis-05-power-steering-issue/

DJ WIPEOUT

Thanks Wonski, well put! It just didn't feel safe at the time when trying to move from a stationary position at lights (waiting to turn right) to cut across the lane running alongside me (going straight) into thankfully some car parking free space at the side. I didn't want to even imagine would it would be like at speed but I guess from all the responses so far that it would have been fine!

pablo128

Petrol Avensis of that era has electric power assisted steering. No electricity means no power assistance. The car is fixed. Drive on.

TheBoyConor

More like a fail-deadly design flaw than a manufacturing defect if the car's electrical system is designed in such a way that a failure of the alternator would have a knock on effect of knocking out the power assist steering.

Just thinking about this at a basic level, even if the alternator failed suddenly the car still should have an ample reserve of electrical power in the battery to be able to run the power steering. The fact that the rest of the electrical items still worked would indicate that there was ample electrical supply left.

Thinking again, it may be that the signal from the spinning alternator enables the steering assist motor at a software level. If this wasn't the case the power steering would function with the engine off but the ignition switched on which you wouldn't want. A failure in the alternator may mean that this signal was lost and the control system then "thought" that there was no signal from the alternator, therefore the engine is off, so don't activate the power steering.

I may be wrong here in this case, but I do know that some vehicles do use the AC signal from the alternator to determine that the engine running.

If this is the case here it is a fail deadly design as it could result in the situation you describe.

Of course this may not be the case at all as I do not know the ins and outs of these cars.

Toyotafanboi

Not a snowballs chance in hell of goodwill IMO. If you aren't comfortable any more in that car, you're only alternative is to sell it and buy another and take effectively the same chance again.

Sure any failure in a car is life threatening in the wrong circumstance, that's the chance you take using one really. Engine failure could have caused the same issue. If you were to draw up a list of things that could fail in a car unexpectedly that could kill you, it'd be a super long list.

I know the electronic steering in those is very heavy when you loose power, not like hydraulic steering where when you loose power you can still manhandle it, electronic steering is almost effectively locked. No doubt you may have gotten a fright.

It's not really a manufacturing defect in the strictest sense, it's more like aging/ wear in this scenario. If the alternator didn't last 12/ 24/36 months, you could argue it was a manufacturing defect as you easily expect an alternator to last that long and while most of us expect an alternator to be a life long item, the reality is a failure after 168 months/ 14 years is very difficult to define as a manufacturing process related defect as opposed to any kind of excessive wear, incorrect maintenance or external influence it may have been exposed to since then.

edit: my 10,000th post, ranting about a faulty Toyota. Who'd have thought it :pac:

seamus

More like a fail-deadly design flaw than a manufacturing defect if the car's electrical system is designed in such a way that a failure of the alternator would have a knock on effect of knocking out the power assist steering.

This is pretty standard. The alternator is a crucial part of the electrical system when the engine is running. If it dies, anything dependent on electrics will fail, including power steering.

Better that some steering is available, than none at all.

Hydraulic power steering is not electrics-dependent, but equally can fail suddenly, and the driver will have the exact same experience.

my3cents

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Not a snowballs chance in hell of goodwill IMO. If you aren't comfortable any more in that car, you're only alternative is to sell it and buy another and take effectively the same chance again.

Sure any failure in a car is life threatening in the wrong circumstance, that's the chance you take using one really. Engine failure could have caused the same issue. If you were to draw up a list of things that could fail in a car unexpectedly that could kill you, it'd be a super long list.

I know the electronic steering in those is very heavy when you loose power, not like hydraulic steering where when you loose power you can still manhandle it, electronic steering is almost effectively locked. No doubt you may have gotten a fright.

It's not really a manufacturing defect in the strictest sense, it's more like aging/ wear in this scenario. If the alternator didn't last 12/ 24/36 months, you could argue it was a manufacturing defect as you easily expect an alternator to last that long and while most of us expect an alternator to be a life long item, the reality is a failure after 168 months/ 14 years is very difficult to define as a manufacturing process related defect as opposed to any kind of excessive wear, incorrect maintenance or external influence it may have been exposed to since then.

edit: my 10,000th post, ranting about a faulty Toyota. Who'd have thought it :pac:

Wasn't there a recall on some of those? See the link I posted above but that seems to have been for the steering shaft whatever that is?

Toyotafanboi

Not that I'm aware of.

The reality is, the alternator failed so actually the whole car stopped working, just the only symptom that the OP has honed in on is the (obvious) loss of steering. There actually is nor was anything wrong with the OP's steering, that we know of anyway. An electrical fault shut the whole car down, including the steering.

TheBoyConor

seamus wrote: »

This is pretty standard. The alternator is a crucial part of the electrical system when the engine is running. If it dies, anything dependent on electrics will fail, including power steering.

......

How could that be?

Sure even if the alternator imploded or fell clean out of the car havent you still got a battery with a reserve of power to run the car's systems for a time? Hence the presence of a alternator light on the dash to let you know the alternator is going wonky.

I've had an alternator fail in my previous car and it drove 20-30 miles before it cut out due to the battery depleting so much that the lights dimmed and there wasn't enough power left to run the fuel injectors etc.

However, this was in an old 02 volvo S40. Current cars with CAN bus etc likely have much more interplay between components and a failure in one place might have an unexpected or confusing effect on another component that would, on the face of it, appear to not directly connected with the failed component.

Sure just look at how many threads there are here where the owner will get a MIL, and limp or no start and pull a fault code for some part engine system. Then after much confusion, it turns out it is actually a left rear brake temperature sensor or some other random unconnected part is actually causing the issue.

I think auto companies have a lot to do on the robustness and reliability engineering side of things.

DJ WIPEOUT

Del2005 wrote: »

The car will still steer perfectly fine you just need to use more muscles, before power assisted steering became ubiquitous this is what people had to do. The faster you are travelling the less you'll notice the lack of assistance.

Thanks Del2005, yeah I didn't have the experience of driving pre power assisted steering. At 6'3"/191cm with an athletic build it took me by surprise! This felt like the two front tyres had deflated/blown out (which is what I checked first when I got out of the car). The only other time I experienced something like this with a car was when the hydraulics were no longer working on a boot door - by God you only realise the weight then!

bmc58

DJ WIPEOUT wrote: »

Hi all,

2005 Toyota Avensis, 127 thousand kms travelled

Granted the car is 'old' at 14 years, however, with a low distance travelled relatively speaking!

Regardless of the debate around it's age and warranties etc, I would like to know others thoughts on how an alternator failing could not be considered to potentially life threatening by an authorised dealer when it results in very heavy steering!

I was driving to work (normally I cycle hence the low kms) one day and all of a sudden the car's steering became very heavy at a set of lights while waiting to take a turn at a junction. There were no warning lights nor any effect to the electrics as they were all still on.

I pulled the steering wheel with force over to the left in order to veer the car over to the side of the road. When I turned the car off the electrics would no longer work and the steering remained very heavy.

Authorised dealer has said car is fine now that the alternator has been replaced with a reconditioned one.

My problem is I don't feel comfortable driving the car on the M50 at 100-120kms if the steering goes again due to electrical failure...

Is this a manufacturing defect?

Driving on the M50 at 100 to 120kmph?When does this happen?I thought it's usually about 50 kmph,if you're lucky.

DJ WIPEOUT

James Forde wrote: »

Same thing has happened to me on 3 occasions now with my Focus.

Keep an eye out for warning signs on the dash as it will usually give you and indication if the alternator is about to die. Abs light/Handbrake light come on, all dials stop working etc.

Scary when it happens the first time mind you.

Thanks James, after it happened I was looking for warning signs but there was nothing new illuminated/flashing which I found odd.

Scary is right for first time for sure!

Alanstrainor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

How could that be?

Sure even if the alternator imploded or fell clean out of the car havent you still got a battery with a reserve of power to run the car's systems for a time? Hence the presence of a alternator light on the dash to let you know the alternator is going wonky.

I've had an alternator fail in my previous car and it drove 20-30 miles before it cut out due to the battery depleting so much that the lights dimmed and there wasn't enough power left to run the fuel injectors etc.

However, this was in an old 02 volvo S40. Current cars with CAN bus etc likely have much more interplay between components and a failure in one place might have an unexpected or confusing effect on another component that would, on the face of it, appear to not directly connected with the failed component.

That assumes the battery is healthy. It seems the power steering draws a lot of power which explains why that was the first thing to fail. Why there was no light on the dash... I have no idea.

DJ WIPEOUT wrote: »

Thanks Del2005, yeah I didn't have the experience of driving pre power assisted steering. At 6'3"/191cm with an athletic build it took me by surprise! This felt like the two front tyres had deflated/blown out (which is what I checked first when I got out of the car). The only other time I experienced something like this with a car was when the hydraulics were no longer working on a boot door - by God you only realise the weight then!

Your failed steering was far far harder to turn than cars of old. Fighting the now dead electric motor being the main cause. Anyone would have found that difficult.

DJ WIPEOUT

Midnight_EG wrote: »

You should definitely try Toyota for a warranty claim on this, and keep us in the loop...they might not charge you

Thanks Midnight_EG, authorised dealer billed me and claimed they were doing me a favour by providing the option of a reconditioned alternator instead of having to pay more for a new one! I assumed it would be well out of warranty due to it's life and was more concerned as to whether it was a manufacturing fault.

Alun

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Your failed steering was far far harder to turn than cars of old. Fighting the now dead electric motor being the main cause. Anyone would have found that difficult.

This is what I was going to say. I've plenty of experience of driving cars that didn't have power steering including some quite large and heavy ones with wide-ish tyres, so know what it feels like, but on the two occasions where I've experienced power steering failure it's felt much, much heavier than that.

DJ WIPEOUT

theteal wrote: »

Is an alternator that dies after 14 years of use a manufacturing defect?

Thanks theteal, I accept that point. It's more the effects of a failed alternator are a little harder to stomach!

DJ WIPEOUT

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

Frightening more so than life threatening, car can still steer perfectly, just requires a little more effort while moving, and a lot more effort if the car is stationary.

Thanks Tacitus Kilgore, well put! certainly a lot more effort if the car is stationary!

DJ WIPEOUT

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Alternators are not for life. The dealer identified the fault, fixed it so really you should be good for years to come. You can worry all you like, but I can't see why it would fail again any time soon. And honestly the car would be much easier to steer at speed anyway, the greater the speed the easier it is to steer. It seems to have failed when you were stopped, which would take quite some force to turn the wheel.

Anyway, it was an annoying situation but nothing to worry about. And here's a top tip forget going to the dealer with a 14 year old car, find a good independent local to you and save a fortune.

Thanks Alanstrainor, the worry just comes from not knowing whether any other source of electrical failure (eg. battery failure) could occur and result in the same outcome. It seems that based on the responses so far that I would indeed have been better off at speed. Incredible force when moving from a stopped position!

I've been told this tip before and without opening up another thread... I struggle with the insurance/legal ramifications of taking it to a "good independent local" if they are more limited in the scope of their testing and responsibility. If, worst case, the car is involved in someone's death/serious injury by accident (in which case the car will be forensically examined), I would much rather be standing up in court saying an Authorised Dealer looked at it, provided a report of work completed and signed off on the job rather than Joe Bloggs around the corner from me fixed x,y and z but I don't have any/much proof of what was/wasn't done.

DJ WIPEOUT

Tacklebox wrote: »

Happened to me on an old golf it was scary enough, as I was actually slowed down coming into a roundabout.

You know what I'm talking about!

DJ WIPEOUT

seamus wrote: »

Hah, the things we take for granted.

It's my recollection though that steering wheels before power steering used to be bigger, this would make it easier to turn them.

Am I right, or is that in my head? If it is the case, then it would definitely make the loss of power steering even worse.

Thanks seamus, that seems to be the consensus!

DJ WIPEOUT

my3cents wrote: »

I don't really see how this happened?

I assume the OP's car stalled or something and wasn't running when the steering went heavy?

And what about the brakes? They normally need much more pressure to operate when the engine is off.

Edit> This answers my question third post down https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/141587-avensis-05-power-steering-issue/

That link is a good find and touches on the same problem. My electronically assisted steering, however, just went dead while waiting (engine on) to turn right at a a set of traffic lights.