More ridiculous injury payouts

kildare lad

80,000 euro for cutting his arm hopping over a fence, it's no wonder insurance is so high here. If I claimed every time I got a few stitches or ended up on crutches when I was a child , I'd be a millionaire. I was listening to the radio today and they were discussing the inflated payouts we have here. The average claim pay out in Ireland is 18,000 euro while in Britain it's 5,000. There's something drastically wrong with that figure. There was a woman who owned a play centre on , she had to close down her business because her premiums went up by 1000 % in the last 6 years all because of parasitic lawyers and parents looking for and easy buck.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/boy-who-cut-arm-while-climbing-building-site-fence-gets-80000-settlement-37981874.html

Eggs For Dinner

I watched the report about the lady in the playcentre. Kid bumped his head, no physical injury and is now so traumatised he can't go and play with his friends. Approx 26k. For the sake of disclosure, I work in insurance, but I can tell you these type of events are not unusal. The level of payout is just too tempting

Your Face

Probably cheaper for the company to pay out than to pursue the case to the end.

That's the thing with sites nowadays, they have to be idiot proof.

Still don't agree with this though, as the child entered the site of his own volition.

BeerWolf

I hope for the day one of these useless Judges bump into a child, and have to pay €80k for a traumatic experience to said child...

OldMrBrennan83

Young fella shouldn't have been climbing the fence in the first place. Should have got a good slap and told to behave himself, not be handed 80 grand.

mad muffin

When there is no need for personal responsibility. When the insurance companies can payout these ridiculous sums because we will foot the bill with increased premiums. This is the situation we have.

You either have your shît locked down tighter than a submarine or we pay.

washman3

So 80k for the child and probably another 40/50k for the solicitor bringing the case and who is just possibly a cricket/sailing/rugby buddy of the presiding judge.
It's not rocket science really.
Wake up Ireland...

no.8

I think we'll end up in living in the Rep. Of bubble-wrap land in the near future. I'm all for logical health and safety in our world but this is f**kin joke. His fault, he climbed it, he hurt himself. Sometimes there is no way to idiot-proof inanimate objects and this nonsense will encourage toerags to follow at pace.

We're going down a very murky slippery slope and there is little to no regulation.

P.s. saw that report. Feel very sorry for play centre staff and the uncertainty this brings.

BeerWolf

This is going to destroy creches and, I wouldn't be surprised, schools eventually. Small schools closure, parents struggling to get places in other schools... single parents having a difficult time keeping a job due to child, etc.

This claims culture seriously needs to ****ing cope on.

Atlantic Dawn

I think some of the judges think it's a gameshow they are hosting and not a court of law.

Eggs For Dinner

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I think some of the judges think it's a gameshow they are hosting and not a court of law.

Exactly, which leads to the situation where insurers are reluctant to pay an additional 30k in costs for the privilege of risking a case in front of these people, which, in turn feeds the problem

Samuel Vimes

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I think some of the judges think it's a gameshow they are hosting and not a court of law.

Why blame judges?
Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

beauf

Your Face wrote: »

Probably cheaper for the company to pay out than to pursue the case to the end.

....

Only in the short term. In the longer term it encourages an avalanche of these claims. Which is what we are seeing.

Eggs For Dinner

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Why blame judges?
Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

Because even if awards remain high, insurers would take more cases if there was consistency in the outcome. Taking an action is not always about establishing liability. More often than not it is about the level of award when liability is admitted.

If the correct value of a claim, for example, is €20k and the claimant is seeking 40k, why would an insurer take a case to court when there is a strong possibility the judge might award €50k on top of €15k in legal fees for having the case heard? If they are lucky enough (and it is luck) for a judge to award the 20k, it will have cost €35k overall to settle

Kivaro

BeerWolf wrote: »

This is going to destroy creches and, I wouldn't be surprised, schools eventually. Small schools closure, parents struggling to get places in other schools... single parents having a difficult time keeping a job due to child, etc.

This claims culture seriously needs to ****ing cope on.

Yeah, but the lawyers and judges need bigger houses and more lavish holidays. I think that it's actually criminal the way they get with it, and it actually highlights how corrupt the political system is in this country ....... when they allow small businesses to close down instead of reforming an obviously solicitor-favoured compensation system.

Some posters are saying that it's not the judges fault and many cases are settled before it reaches them.
They are settled because the insurance companies know that they will get crucified if is goes before Irish judges based on the ludicrous amounts that are awarded by them.

Also excusing the judges awards due to the book of quantum does not hold water, as the book of quantum had a very high baseline to begin with.
Why are our unfortunate claimants getting 4 1/2 times the amounts that they would get in the UK? Are people in Ireland that special?

I happen to think that judges are now the most disliked group in Ireland; even more so than politicians. Well done Judges judges.

BattleCorp

Kivaro wrote: »

Yeah, but the lawyers and judges need bigger houses and more lavish holidays. I think that it's actually criminal the way they get with it, and it actually highlights how corrupt the political system is in this country ....... when they allow small businesses to close down instead of reforming an obviously solicitor-favoured compensation system.

I don't know why you've included judges in the above paragraph. They get paid a set salary so it makes no difference to them how many cases they adjudicate on or how much they award or don't award.

OldMrBrennan83

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Why blame judges?
Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

Because it's been shown that you'll lose so no point in wasting time on court. Doesn't mean they've been right to create this way of thinking though.

BattleCorp

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Because it's been shown that you'll lose so no point in wasting time on court. Doesn't mean they've been right to create this way of thinking though.

It's actually the law that's at fault rather than the judges. They just apply the law, they don't write it.

The problem is that the law sets the bar so high, that it's almost impossible for companies/employers etc. to adhere exactly to the law.

Samuel Vimes

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Because it's been shown that you'll lose so no point in wasting time on court. Doesn't mean they've been right to create this way of thinking though.

Bollix

Cases being reported every day in papers where claimants lose/withdraw case when insurance investigators give evidence.
This weeks one;
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/airport-worker-who-sued-after-falling-over-bag-withdraws-case-1.3849490

enricoh

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Why blame judges?
Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

Insurance companies keep settling so they don't have to take their chances with some judge who doles out cash like its monopoly money. Plus they save on all the additional court expenses.
Parasites are closing hard working peoples businesses, time for another government report looking into it!!

Geuze

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Why blame judges?
Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

OK, but plenty of times Judges do make excessive awards, which any reasonable person can see are wrong.

Here's one:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/woman-trapped-in-lift-for-4-minutes-awarded-25-000-1.2821113

Trapped in a lift for four mins - Judge awards 25,000.

"A woman who was trapped in a lift at the Square shopping centre in Tallaght for just over 4½ minutes has been awarded €25,060 by the High Court.

Mr Justice Anthony Barr awarded costs on the Circuit Court scale with a certificate for one senior counsel for each side."

Is there any way to make Judges redundant for incompetence?

Geuze

Judge Anthony Barr is at it again.

Is there any way at all to get rid of these Judges??



"A MAN who slipped on tiles on the front porch of his local authority home has been awarded €105,000 by the High Court.

Thomas Keegan had sued Sligo County Council after he slipped on the porch which had a mosaic tile floor, fracturing his left ankle.

Mr Keegan(49) had told the court he was on his way home from a funeral and had consumed five pints on the day of the accident on November 18, 2013.

He was going in his front door at McNeill Drive, Cranmore, when he said his left foot slipped on the porch tiles and he fell forward, landing in the hall. He later had to have an operation on the ankle.

Sligo County Council had claimed Mr Keegan had consumed five pints of beer on the day of the accident in November 2013 and he failed to take reasonable care for his own safety when entering the property.

Mr Justice Anthony Barr said he accepted Mr Keegan’s evidence he continues to experience pain in the ankle joint in particular when standing for long periods, when walking on uneven ground and when ascending steps and stairs."

Eggs For Dinner

Samuel Vimes wrote:

Cases being reported every day in papers where claimants lose/withdraw case when insurance investigators give evidence. This weeks one;

These are noteworthy cases which make good reading in the press and insurers have been more successful lately. However, there are 100s every day that you don't get to hear about.

Don't get me wrong, insurers are very much part of the problem. Back in the boom, too many matters went unchallenged and this led to the feeding frenzy we have today.

Anteayer

It's amazing that the Troika brought up the legal costs in Ireland and all of this stuff during the economic crisis here and the powers that be just opted to focus on anything else instead.

If we don't take this issue seriously, we are destroying the economy, restricting growth and keeping costs very high.

Part of the reason why consumer prices here are so high is astronomically expensive insurance for retail and other aspects of the supply chain.

It's also fairly clear that there's no incentive for insurers not to settle. I can only assume they're happy with huge payouts justifying enormous premiums. Ultimately, if the costs are being met by policy holders they won't care.

This has to be dealt with by then government. It's not going to fix itself.

lalababa

BeerWolf wrote: »

This is going to destroy creches and, I wouldn't be surprised, schools eventually. Small schools closure, parents struggling to get places in other schools... single parents having a difficult time keeping a job due to child, etc.

This claims culture seriously needs to ****ing cope on.

It's not just creches and schools it's almost every business AND public & private lands, infact the only place where a person cannot claim for an incident is in their own home and only if they're not renting. Scratch that, what's the story with home and personal injury insurance! You probably can!
There are countless businesses feeling the heat, such as marts. The beef production industry is loosing money and can't afford Mart premiums.

LionelNashe

It was claimed there was a failure to exercise any or any reasonable care towards persons, particularly children, who might attempt to climb the fence, when it was known or ought to have been known it was in an allegedly dangerous condition.

It was further claimed the fence was allegedly unstable and dangerous, particularly to children who might attempt to climb it.

The claims were denied. It was contended there was in place an adequate system for supervision, monitoring and safety of the use of the site. It was denied there was a failure to adequately maintain the fence.

*If* the claims about the fence were true, it could have been a kid's throat that was sliced open and not just his arm. 80k is about right as a penalty, but most of it shouldn't go to the kid, I reckon, but be levied as some kind of health and safety fine.

tigerboon

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Why blame judges?
Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

Judges being "favourable" to the claimant is part of the racket.

Berserker

mad muffin wrote: »

When there is no need for personal responsibility. When the insurance companies can payout these ridiculous sums because we will foot the bill with increased premiums. This is the situation we have.

I just don't understand this claim culture. Mrs. B was coming out of the shopping centre a while back. Her heel get caught in a crack in the path and she fell. No harm done, apart from a damaged heel and a bit of embarrassment. Mentioned it to a few friends in passing and they were all over us for not pursuing it. I'd be fcking mortified if she did, as would she. Guess we are just odd folk.

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

I watched the report about the lady in the playcentre. Kid bumped his head, no physical injury and is now so traumatised he can't go and play with his friends. Approx 26k. For the sake of disclosure, I work in insurance, but I can tell you these type of events are not unusal. The level of payout is just too tempting

If they pursue these claims it'll end up costing more. These cases drag of for years. I used to work in insurance for years; on the I.T. side but I've a pretty good grasp on the claims world from my time there. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that goes on.

BeerWolf

Curious how insurance fraud is illegal, yet these frivolous claims are so readily handed out.

€25k for the inconveniece of being stuck in an elevator for 4 minutes??? W t f

Eggs For Dinner

Anteayer wrote:

It's also fairly clear that there's no incentive for insurers not to settle. I can only assume they're happy with huge payouts justifying enormous premiums. Ultimately, if the costs are being met by policy holders they won't care.

They do care if the premiums become uneconomical and people stop paying, or if underwriters withdraw the facility altogether, as is the case with many sectors such as the playcentres. It is not in an insurers interest to have to quote a premium necessary to cover claims, if nobody can pay it.

no.8

LionelNashe wrote:

*If* the claims about the fence were true, it could have been a kid's throat that was sliced open and not just his arm. 80k is about right as a penalty, but most of it shouldn't go to the kid, I reckon, but be levied as some kind of health and safety fine.

This must be troll material? What planet are you living on?
It didn't say that spikes were projecting from side of the fence!

Berserker

BeerWolf wrote: »

Curious how insurance fraud is illegal, yet these frivolous claims are so readily handed out.

€25k for the inconveniece of being stuck in an elevator for 4 minutes??? W t f

You've nothing to lose. You are not going to end up in prison and insurance companies cannot refuse to give you quotations going forward.

BattleCorp

LionelNashe wrote: »

*If* the claims about the fence were true, it could have been a kid's throat that was sliced open and not just his arm. 80k is about right as a penalty, but most of it shouldn't go to the kid, I reckon, but be levied as some kind of health and safety fine.

Or, you know, parents could tell their kids not to climb fences to trespass onto a building site.

And we don't know if there was anything wrong with the fence. The plaintiff's counsel alleged that it was faulty, the defence said it wasn't, and there was no ruling on whether the fence was dodgy or not.

Eggs For Dinner

What we need are fences that are secure enough to protect a person's right not to have skangers enter their property, yet are harmless and accommodating to skangers who want to enter said property

Seems easy enough to me

kildare lad

I worked in a shop a few years ago, I was talking to the security guard and the subject of shoplifting can up. He said, he was told by the store managers that he had to be a million percent sure that someone was robbing before he approached them. The way they see it was if people are robbing a few t-shirts or knickers it doesn't amount to much , but if you get it wrong one time and stop someone who has paid , theres no more, them showing the receipt and him apologising. It now ends up court and them claiming for personal embarrassment and slander, the shop had to pay out 15,000 before in such a case. So unless they were a 100% sure and and it was something really valuable, the security were told to leave it

Edgware

BeerWolf wrote: »

Curious how insurance fraud is illegal, yet these frivolous claims are so readily handed out.

€25k for the inconveniece of being stuck in an elevator for 4 minutes??? W t f

It activated me claustrophobia Joe!

Eggs For Dinner

LionelNashe wrote: »

I think you're being ironic, but I agree with you. The wooden hoarding you see surrounding a lot of sites would be harder to climb than a mesh fence, and wouldn't cause a laceration like in the above case, and would be more stable.

Surely to God you're not advocating a security fencing system where some scrote has the potential of getting a splinter in his pinky? The psychological trauma of that would be immeasurable, except in Euro terms of course. That would make the ouch go away

drongadoir

We need to rewrite the Occupiers' Liability Act, 1995.

Rasputin11

We can't be too far away from a burglar successfully suing for damages occured while on the job.

Your Face

Rasputin11 wrote: »

We can't be too far away from a burglar successfully suing for damages occured while on the job.

We have arrived:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/burglar-sues-shop-owner-after-he-injured-his-testicles-while-robbing-the-premises-36468641.html

janfebmar

Rasputin11 wrote: »

We can't be too far away from a burglar successfully suing for damages occured while on the job.

That happened already in this banana republic , I remember a case where a young burgular fell through the roof of a business premises he was breaking in to, and he sued.

AlekSmart

Rasputin11 wrote: »

We can't be too far away from a burglar successfully suing for damages occured while on the job.

Here's one "burglar" who was prepared to give it a lash......

G'wan Waquil,ya good thing,sure them Irish are as dopey as well chewed Chat !!!!

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-who-threw-himself-in-front-of-car-and-then-claimed-damages-against-driver-is-jailed-37987059.html

Judge Sheahan said Alatise’s motivation had been to defraud the woman’s insurance company and that he had submitted a claim to the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, which he had since withdrawn.

An eyewitness at the scene, Patrick O’Leary, later told gardaí he had seen the driver stopped for a few seconds at the car park entrance when a man walked across in front of her car and collapsed.

Mr O’Leary said the driver had not been on her phone and the man was not hit by the car.

The DPP concluded that the woman should not be prosecuted and gardaí arrested Alatise. The court heard that medical evidence supported the notion that Alatise had not been injured in the course of the incident.

Gda Byrne said Alatise made a civil claim to PIAB in October 2016, shortly before the two-year claim window expired. Alatise later wrote to AXA formally withdrawing his claim.

Mind you,Waquil,is apparently doing quite well for himself,without having to resort to criminality and inflicting harm upon innocent strangers.

Kim Moloney BL, defending, said her client had moved to Ireland from Lagos, Nigeria in 2008 under the Family Reunification Programme.

She said Alatise suffered a brain haemorrhage in 2013 and his marriage subsequently broke up, but that he remarried last year and his second wife lives in Lagos.

The court heard Alatise has been an Irish citizen since 2012 and works several jobs to support his children and ex-wife, who suffers from polio.

Ms Moloney presented several testimonials on behalf of her client and said Alatise had a good work history and an excellent education.

The court heard he had been doing a Masters in International Peace Studies at Trinity College and planned to submit his thesis this year, with the goal of completing a PhD at Oxford University.

A Degree in "Peace Studies" would appear to be appropriate alright ?

Fair play to Judge Elma Sheahan,who had the presence of mind to seperate the wheat from the chaff,when considering mitigation.

rob316

Buddy works in insurance told me if there is a claim against their customer for whiplash they will offer 15k to settle our of court as standard. It's impossible to prove someone has it.

I was just raised better than to blame someone else for a genuine accident or my stupidity. I could think of many times I could of claimed compo.

rob316

The worst I've seen is the 20k awarded to a woman who pulled her chair in and banged her knee off the leg of a table in a restaurant.
I'm must be wired different I'd just go "oww" and rub it fir a minute and get on with my meal.

Mad_maxx

rob316 wrote: »

Buddy works in insurance told me if there is a claim against their customer for whiplash they will offer 15k to settle our of court as standard. It's impossible to prove someone has it.

I was just raised better than to blame someone else for a genuine accident or my stupidity. I could think of many times I could of claimed compo.

Currently dealing with people who despite being negligent, refuse to facilitate an insurance claim, happens the other way too

Some people are afronted at the very idea of someone seeking redress

jmreire

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

Why blame judges?
Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

They are settling in advance because its for them the most cost effective option.....going before the the Judge may cost them multiples of the agreed figure. So yes. The judges have a part to play in all this.....if the crazy awards were brought more in line with the rest of the EU, and fraud was investigated, and punished....it would rapidly decrease the Nr of cases being brought. As it stands....it's a win / win situation for any one bringing a fraudulent claim as it will cost him / her nothing.....with a high chance of a big insurance big pay out.
In England, there is the Insurance Fraud Detection Team, which is a branch of the Police and they investigate claims, and prosecute fraudsters. In one area that they targetted, claims fell by 47% in one year. The Insurance companies in Ireland have offered to fund a specialized Garda Fraud unit......but the Govt are not in favour.

fonecrusher1

Yippeeeee more free money!!!!

drongadoir

jmreire wrote: »

They are settling in advance because its for them the most cost effective option.....going before the the Judge may cost them multiples of the agreed figure. So yes. The judges have a part to play in all this.....if the crazy awards were brought more in line with the rest of the EU, and fraud was investigated, and punished....it would rapidly decrease the Nr of cases being brought. As it stands....it's a win / win situation for any one bringing a fraudulent claim as it will cost him / her nothing.....with a high chance of a big insurance big pay out.
In England, there is the Insurance Fraud Detection Team, which is a branch of the Police and they investigate claims, and prosecute fraudsters. In one area that they targetted, claims fell by 47% in one year. The Insurance companies in Ireland have offered to fund a specialized Garda Fraud unit......but the Govt are not in favour.

Fraudsters aren't the problem. Is the real cases and their absurd payouts that are appalling. Legal reform is needed.

Infini

They need to clamp down on frivilous claims and only allow those where serious injury has been actually been sustained. The whole problem with the whole thing is people are deliberatly gaming the system for malicious purposes and the ridiculous payments from some claims for really shoddy reasons like "emotional trauma" and "slipped on a chip" instead of basically denying these claims simply because people arent taking care to watch their surroundings or because they're malicious in intent.

kildare lad

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/you-have-told-this-court-a-pack-of-lies-man-withdraws-60k-injury-claim-after-photos-of-him-bodybuilding-and-playing-football-shown-in-court-37998356.html?fbclid=IwAR1bMi_gMH20NrU_DR9KdW9ok1vez0rV8w6BiF6rhGFXa3g7Re2LGNxxBVk

After being caught out, he withdrew his claim . How can't they be done for fraud?? He wasn't even made pay legal costs. It's a win / win situation. You either win your claim or lose it , but still it doesn't cost you anything ... joke

AllForIt

I broke my finger clicking on this thread.

BOARDS, my solicitor will be in touch, in due course.