Epic vs Steam

EoinHef

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, this is very debatable.

Obviously, there is a hate train out there for Epic, but the average gamer really, as a customer, isn't too bothered by it.

As to what Steam offers above Epic...again, the average gamer isn't that bothered.

Steam has loads of amazing features to be fair. However...features the majority of gamers aren't that pushed about.

Epic has offline mode. Cloud saves coming soon (I admit it's ridiculous they didn't have that as standard).

Beyond that, the vast majority of gamers don't really care. I mean look at that chart that constantly gets posted.

Inaccurate and biased as it is, the vast majority of positive things it attributes to Steam are things 90% of gamers aren't bothered by.

Same way that the majority of gamers don't have any issues with Origin/Uplay/GOG/etc. Epic are using exclusivity to get a foothold in market dominated by Steam for the past 15 years. Just simply having slightly lower prices was never going to achieve that being honest.

In fairness your post makes points that are quite debatable also.

Your claiming to talk for an awful lot of people there.

TerrorFirmer

I'm not claiming to talk for everyone. But realistically, outside of the vocal internet crowd, most people don't have as much 'beef' with Epic as is made out. Nor do they use a fraction of the Steam features being lauded as the reason Epic is inferior and to be shunned.

There was a similar backlash again a lot of the exclusive platforms. It will settle down. EGS is not going anywhere. Nor is it the devil being made out.

BloodBath

gizmo wrote: »

Unreal Engine is indeed royalty based with Epic being owed 5% of all gross revenue after the first $3k made per quarter on the product. How steep that cost is compared to Unity's per seat monthly subscription model depends entirely on the studio though.

As for the second part, there's a myriad of ways to address that topic but, in the context of AAA development, there's a reason UE4 is the most popular third party engine being used.

AAA's can pay a once off fee for the engine anyway. They don't have to pay a % at all.

The 5% after 3k per quarter is perfectly reasonable for indies. No sub fees while you learn and develop on it.

The majority of the other software you need for game development will end up costing you thousands per year.

If you end up paying epic a lot your game has done well so it's irrelevant. I'd be more worried about the 30% that steam takes.

gizmo

BloodBath wrote: »

AAA's can pay a once off fee for the engine anyway. They don't have to pay a % at all.

The 5% after 3k per quarter is perfectly reasonable for indies. No sub fees while you learn and develop on it.

The majority of the other software you need for game development will end up costing you thousands per year.

If you end up paying epic a lot your game has done well so it's irrelevant. I'd be more worried about the 30% that steam takes.

Custom licences are a whole different story for both engines though, referring to their publicly known licencing costs just makes this discussion easier.

No arguments from me for the rest of the post

Robert ninja

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Nor is it the devil being made out.

Their response after the data-leeching of the steam client, their favoring of even more control for publishers on reviews (as if Valve wasn't F'ing that up enough) and their brute force purchasing of exclusives pretty much makes them as bad as you can bloody get for such a service. The only reason they're even in this game is because of a fluke with Fornite. Never forget the F2P version was supposed to just be a demo yet they act like they've got some big-brain knowledge about what consumers want.

The sad thing is that the Fornite dosh will keep them around even if they didn't make profit for a decade.

BloodBath

Robert ninja wrote: »

Their response after the data-leeching of the steam client, their favoring of even more control for publishers on reviews (as if Valve wasn't F'ing that up enough) and their brute force purchasing of exclusives pretty much makes them as bad as you can bloody get for such a service. The only reason they're even in this game is because of a fluke with Fornite. Never forget the F2P version was supposed to just be a demo yet they act like they've got some big-brain knowledge about what consumers want.

The sad thing is that the Fornite dosh will keep them around even if they didn't make profit for a decade.

Hardly a fluke, same guys that made unreal tournament, gears of war and bulletstorm. Paragon wasn't terrible either.

They also make the best damn engine available to the public.

Sure you could say any game that makes it that big is a fluke and it kind of is.

I get the dislike of being forced to their store for a game you want but I wonder sometimes about how out of proportion people in this sector blow things.

It looked at your friends list on steam as part of it's friend import. Every website you visit is doing far more nefarious spying on the things you do.

But I suppose you are the conspiracy camp that epic is stealing all your data and selling it to the Chinese.

Retr0gamer

It kind of was a fluke. It was built by a few guys at people can fly after begging management to let them put it together on a shoestring budget as a proof of concept. They had no faith in the project especially since it was a spin off of a game that was belly flopping hard.

It just hit at the height of the battle royale zeitgeist, surfing on the coat tails of pubg. The price was right as well mean although it's... arguably inferior it got a bigger audience. Epic were just clever enough to recognise what they'd stumbled upon and milk the **** out of it.

Robert ninja

BloodBath wrote: »

It looked at your friends list on steam as part of it's friend import.

It leeched that data even if you didn't import. They lied.

BloodBath wrote: »

very website you visit is doing far more nefarious spying on the things you do

I don't install websites on my computer nor do I pay for them. There's plugins to enhance security. They're contained (even per tab).

BloodBath wrote: »

But I suppose you are the conspiracy camp that epic is stealing all your data and selling it to the Chinese.

They're not selling it to them they're Chinese owned. It's already theirs. If you think China spying through their tech-related business is a conspiracy then damn that's pretty naive mate.

No offense.

Varik

Tencent are a minority shareholder.

earthwormjack

Robert ninja wrote: »

They're not selling it to them they're Chinese owned. It's already theirs. If you think China spying through their tech-related business is a conspiracy then damn that's pretty naive mate.

No offense.

They're not Chinese owned and I doubt they ever will be honestly, but a 40% stake is still fairly sizeable.

BloodBath

Robert ninja wrote: »

It leeched that data even if you didn't import. They lied.

I don't install websites on my computer nor do I pay for them. There's plugins to enhance security. They're contained (even per tab).

They're not selling it to them they're Chinese owned. It's already theirs. If you think China spying through their tech-related business is a conspiracy then damn that's pretty naive mate.

No offense.

Every bit of data about you is already in multiple databases somewhere so no I'm not too worried and have yet to see any evidence of anything illegal. If they want my steam friends list I couldn't give a crap. Or it could be you know a mistake like they said. Maybe that is naive but I couldn't care either way.

There is a tendency lately to blow everything out of proportion and grab the pitchforks. The millennial effect.

Do you have any links that show exactly what the epic launcher is doing that it shouldn't be doing outside of normal security / anti cheat or caching your steam friend list?

Robert ninja

BloodBath wrote: »

Or it could be you know a mistake like they said.

But that's exactly what they would say either way. And I'll believe the sky is falling before I'd believe Chinese software accidentally harvests data.

BloodBath wrote: »

Do you have any links that show exactly what the epic launcher is doing that it shouldn't be doing outside of normal security / anti cheat or caching your steam friend list?

With closed source software, there's literally no telling what it could be doing. Because of that reputation is everything. Valve AFAIK has decent reputation for the steam client given its lifespan as well as some parts of it being public code (like Proton). As for EGS, here's some links not to leave you empty handed.

https://www.androidcentral.com/epic-games-first-fortnite-installer-allowed-hackers-download-install-silently
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanwhitwam/2018/08/25/epic-games-has-already-exposed-android-users-to-unacceptable-fortnite-malware-risks/#558f03e4508c
https://www.theguardian.com/games/2018/aug/10/fortnite-on-android-phones-risk-malware-infections
http://time.com/5504428/fortnite-security-flaw/


The original reddit post about it https://www.reddit.com/r/PhoenixPoint/comments/b0rxdq/epic_game_store_spyware_tracking_and_you/

BloodBath

Robert ninja wrote: »

But that's exactly what they would say either way. And I'll believe the sky is falling before I'd believe Chinese software accidentally harvests data.
With closed source software, there's literally no telling what it could be doing. Because of that reputation is everything. Valve AFAIK has decent reputation for the steam client given its lifespan as well as some parts of it being public code (like Proton). As for EGS, here's some links not to leave you empty handed.

https://www.androidcentral.com/epic-games-first-fortnite-installer-allowed-hackers-download-install-silently
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanwhitwam/2018/08/25/epic-games-has-already-exposed-android-users-to-unacceptable-fortnite-malware-risks/#558f03e4508c
https://www.theguardian.com/games/2018/aug/10/fortnite-on-android-phones-risk-malware-infections
http://time.com/5504428/fortnite-security-flaw/


The original reddit post about it https://www.reddit.com/r/PhoenixPoint/comments/b0rxdq/epic_game_store_spyware_tracking_and_you/

Ok so the first 4 links are about the same android vulnerability where you would have to have an actual virus that could make use of that vulnerability. Quite common even for OS's to have these vulnerabilities never mind software on those OS's.

I saw that reddit post already and it proves nothing. The guy himself said he has very limited knowledge and can't prove it's doing anything unsavoury. Considering the amount of genuinely knowledgeable people using the engine I doubt it's doing anything too bad but I'm open to being corrected.


So my original point stands. This is as usual a fluff piece blown out of proportion by a certain segment of this community. The majority shareholder is still Tim Sweeney. 1 of the most influential people ever in game development. I am a bit of a fanboy as you can tell but it's better than jumping on a bandwagon of hate just because a Chinese company owns a significant share and some guy posted some crap on reddit.

gizmo

BloodBath wrote: »

I saw that reddit post already and it proves nothing. The guy himself said he has very limited knowledge and can't prove it's doing anything unsavoury. Considering the amount of genuinely knowledgeable people using the engine I doubt it's doing anything too bad but I'm open to being corrected.

So my original point stands. This is as usual a fluff piece blown out of proportion by a certain segment of this community. The majority shareholder is still Tim Sweeney. 1 of the most influential people ever in game development. I am a bit of a fanboy as you can tell but it's better than jumping on a bandwagon of hate just because a Chinese company owns a significant share and some guy posted some crap on reddit.

Quoting part of one of my posts from earlier because this aspect of the discussion is getting tiresome.

The Chinese element is abject nonsense though and was thankfully torn apart in an article that Sweeney linked himself at the beginning of the tweet chain from the OP. Technical debunking aside, I find it odd that people weren't similarly worried about Tencent's outright ownership of Riot for LoL or their 5% stake in Activision and Ubisoft. What stake holding is required for people to be worried about Chinese spying via the Battle.net and uPlay?

If folk want a more direct link to the reddit post rebuttal within then they can see it here...

Epic Games Store Is **** - But It's Not Spyware

This view was also supported by Richard Geldreich, a former developer at Valve, who has spoken quite a bit about his time there previously.

BloodBath

gizmo wrote: »

Quoting part of one of my posts from earlier because this aspect of the discussion is getting tiresome.



If folk want a more direct link to the reddit post rebuttal within then they can see it here...

Epic Games Store Is **** - But It's Not Spyware

This view was also supported by Richard Geldreich, a former developer at Valve, who has spoken quite a bit about his time there previously.

Ah my apologies I was late to the party and didn't realise this had been addressed already. Which begs the question why is he still saying it.

deceit

I'm not a fan of epic (Exclusivity issue is my only gripe and maybe a small worry they may inject sjw politics into what games are allowed on their store in the future - this part may be unfounded) but I wouldn't think anything of the chinese part owners and I work in IT Security.
The only two tech companies that steal/sell your data I can think of are Razer and Nzxt both of which I avoid like the plague.

BloodBath

deceit wrote: »

I'm not a fan of epic (Exclusivity issue is my only gripe and maybe a small worry they may inject sjw politics into what games are allowed on their store in the future - this part may be unfounded) but I wouldn't think anything of the chinese part owners and I work in IT Security.
The only two tech companies that steal/sell your data I can think of are Razer and Nzxt both of which I avoid like the plague.

You forgot every single social media platform but they are as popular as ever.

Not sure where you are getting the SJW slant from in relation to Epic. Why would they try and inject sjw politics into games on their platform?

When have they ever done or tried to do anything remotely like this? You must be mixing them up with Ea or Blizzard.

deceit

BloodBath wrote: »

You forgot every single social media platform but they are as popular as ever.

Not sure where you are getting the SJW slant from in relation to Epic. Why would they try and inject sjw politics into games on their platform?

When have they ever done or tried to do anything remotely like this? You must be mixing them up with Ea or Blizzard.

I was more focusing on companies related to gaming. (Nzxt and Razer create gaming hardware).
Other than linkedin (required for work), I generally avoid other social networks.

With wanting to create a curated store their is always the possibilty of it happening. As much as I hate a lot of the trash on Stream, I would prefer the option for it being their than not.

This is why I said its more of a worry than a reality, it wouldn't prevent me from using their service unless it was a reality though. Ea/Blizzard are never going to be the dominant stores so they would be less of a worry.

Shiminay

You prefer having so much nonsense on a store page that you can't find anything easily unless you know exactly what you're looking for? It's not like Steam is a free-for-all anyway, you still have to pay to be listed, but they just enable the bs asset flippers and their ilk to carry on cause getting their listing fee is more important than testing if the thing works, making sure it's not breaking someone else's copyright or checking that it offers their customers something worthwhile.

As for "SJW Politics" - a monumentally stupid phrase to begin with - you know that what you're calling sjw politics is the very simple idea that people are people and they're all equal, right? I mean what on earth is it in that idea that anyone could object to unless they're some sort of racist/homophobe/bigot/etc?

BloodBath

Shiminay wrote: »

You prefer having so much nonsense on a store page that you can't find anything easily unless you know exactly what you're looking for? It's not like Steam is a free-for-all anyway, you still have to pay to be listed, but they just enable the bs asset flippers and their ilk to carry on cause getting their listing fee is more important than testing if the thing works, making sure it's not breaking someone else's copyright or checking that it offers their customers something worthwhile.

As for "SJW Politics" - a monumentally stupid phrase to begin with - you know that what you're calling sjw politics is the very simple idea that people are people and they're all equal, right? I mean what on earth is it in that idea that anyone could object to unless they're some sort of racist/homophobe/bigot/etc?

Nothing racist/sexist or bigoted about it but there has been a lot of pandering to certain groups who demanded certain things and got them. I really do not care about the sexuality of cartoon characters in overwatch. It is entirely irreverent to what is a basic fps game with little to no storyline and certainly not 1 that warrants exploring the sexuality of the characters.

I had no issues with those things being explored or chosen in role playing games like Mass Effect. It reeks of pandering to the LGBTQ groups in a game like overwatch when you suddenly decide years after release to make several of the characters gay when it wasn't even clear if they were straight before hand. It's a simple game. Why do the characters sexuality even come into play?

Should we know how all the characters in league of legends sexually identify as well? What about street fighter? Or is it better to just be ambiguous about it and let people chose their own story for the characters unless a games storyline demands that it be shown/known.

Shiminay

What you're calling "pandering" is what minorities and marginalized groups call "inclusion" - just try to think of it that way.

BloodBath

They are included. They are gamers like the rest of us. My point stands. I don't care about the sexuality of characters in a simple cartoon game. It didn't matter if they straight gay bi or whatever. It is completely irrelevant to the game. I don't see any of the characters coming out as straight and I don't care if they are gay. My point is it's pointless pandering from the pressure they were put under by certain groups.

Shiminay

I can assure you that you would probably feel different about it if you were never represented in a game or if any attempt to represent you merely fetishised you. You're borderline "when is straight pride?" levels of willful ignorance here friend and that's disappointing to say the least. If you're so opposed minorities finally being included and that "cis-het-white-dude-bro" is no longer the default then maybe take 5 minutes to think about why you feel that way.

I can assure you, it's not pointless at all. Representation and visibility really does matter. I know that Tracer being gay, taking your example above, made a young Overwatch playing girl I know feel thrilled cause she was starting to come out. She felt like she had a hero she could identify with in some very small way and you'd want to be really rotten to the core to think that this was some sort of bad thing.

EoinHef

Jaysus,give it a break.

Your acting like hes all out against any inclusion and diversity,thats not what he said. Twisting words to paint a characture of someone isnt very nice either.

But its the usual argument,if you dont fully agree with me your a bigot,cruel person. No room for nuance no? Can we not agree on some things and not others? This type of branding of people does not help debate.

BloodBath

Shiminay wrote: »

I can assure you that you would probably feel different about it if you were never represented in a game or if any attempt to represent you merely fetishised you. You're borderline "when is straight pride?" levels of willful ignorance here friend and that's disappointing to say the least. If you're so opposed minorities finally being included and that "cis-het-white-dude-bro" is no longer the default then maybe take 5 minutes to think about why you feel that way.

I can assure you, it's not pointless at all. Representation and visibility really does matter. I know that Tracer being gay, taking your example above, made a young Overwatch playing girl I know feel thrilled cause she was starting to come out. She felt like she had a hero she could identify with in some very small way and you'd want to be really rotten to the core to think that this was some sort of bad thing.

I have not said anything bigoted or hateful or ignorant for that matter. My argument is perfectly logical and is my opinion. My own brother is gay and he agrees with me.

The sexuality of the characters is not important unless it is part of the storyline like Mass Effect as I said already which I have no problem with. In other games they can be whatever you want in your head if it's that important to you. Why should the developers of these games be pressured into this and let's be honest they were pressured into it.

Who said anything about straight pride. Way to twist my words and completely fail to understand my argument which was made as plain as day. If you have a comprehension problem there is not much I can do for you.

I now want to know the sexuality of all 140 league of legends characters and the developers better obey my demands. Do you see how ridiculous this is?

Freedom of art and expression should be the norm. Nobody should be forcing anything on these people. If they want to make a game with all white men, all black women, all gay people or a mix of all that is their choice without being called racist, homophobic, sexist or non inclusive.

Art is art and you can do whatever the feck you want. Nobody gets to dictate what you do. Those that give into that give up everything.

deceit

Shiminay wrote: »

You prefer having so much nonsense on a store page that you can't find anything easily unless you know exactly what you're looking for? It's not like Steam is a free-for-all anyway, you still have to pay to be listed, but they just enable the bs asset flippers and their ilk to carry on cause getting their listing fee is more important than testing if the thing works, making sure it's not breaking someone else's copyright or checking that it offers their customers something worthwhile.

As for "SJW Politics" - a monumentally stupid phrase to begin with - you know that what you're calling sjw politics is the very simple idea that people are people and they're all equal, right? I mean what on earth is it in that idea that anyone could object to unless they're some sort of racist/homophobe/bigot/etc?

The fact that any one that doesn't agree with group think is "racist/homophobe/bigot/etc?" is the type of stupid I don't want connected with gaming. This I see is worse than asset flippers.
Just for reference my two mentors I've had in my life and people I look up to most are (1) a friends dad who gave me my first job and taught me the value of hard work and instilled this value I keep to this day (Immigrant from libya and the hardest person I know).

(2) My second mentor is a guy (gay and married to his partner) who is a genius and taught me so much that allowed me to excel in my field of expertise. For a few years, he was my best friend also. I shouldn't feel the need to defend against something like this. Usually I find people that state this type of bull are usually the racists/bigots themselves and feel the need to project.
Also I've experiemented in the past.
SJW politics like feminism in the past was very important. Nowadays they have reversed and are a plight on society, these groups are filled with certain type that most people would prefer to avoid.

Shiminay

I didn't say you had, but I'm pointing out that for all the insistence you are making that it doesn't matter, I'm telling you that "it doesn't matter to me" is not the same as "it doesn't matter." You're trying to suggest that it's spurrious to want to see LGBT representation in all games and you're suggesting that that it's only ok to have it in RPG games, that doesn't make any sense and it's not inclusive.

If it doesn't matter then why are you arguing against it? What has it cost you to the point that you have to vocally object to it?

You're then performing some glorious mental gymnastics in saying that artistic freedom should be the norm but you're also complaining that this same artistic freedom is being expressed - which is it? I don't know why you think people asking for inclusion is the same as demanding, it's not.

deceit

Shiminay wrote: »

I didn't say you had, but I'm pointing out that for all the insistence you are making that it doesn't matter, I'm telling you that "it doesn't matter to me" is not the same as "it doesn't matter." You're trying to suggest that it's spurrious to want to see LGBT representation in all games and you're suggesting that that it's only ok to have it in RPG games, that doesn't make any sense and it's not inclusive.

If it doesn't matter then why are you arguing against it? What has it cost you to the point that you have to bocally object to it?

You're then performing some glorious mental gymnastics in saying that artistic freedom should be the norm but you're also complaining that this same artistic freedom is being expressed - which is it? I don't know why you think people asking for inclusion is the same as demanding, it's not.

You insinuated he had which is usually enough evidence for the rapid sjw lunatic types to take it as gospel and attack.
None of this bothers people when its naturally put in a game and was not forced in to appease a loud minority that don't actually buy games. Apex legends is an example where no one cared that half the cast were gay even thought their was no need to know the sexuality as we dont know anything else about the characters and for the most part wolfenstein 2's SJW policitcs wasn't game breaking bad (The 3rd one may expand on this, hopefully not though). Battlefield 5 is the perfect example of what is not acceptable. Stating its the most realistic battlefield ever then replacing a team of commandos with a little girl. If you want to add female component, why not add a part from the russian side and highlight female snipers, this wouldn't have been a problem. But changing history for the sake of SJW politics is mental.

BloodBath

Shiminay wrote: »

I didn't say you had, but I'm pointing out that for all the insistence you are making that it doesn't matter, I'm telling you that "it doesn't matter to me" is not the same as "it doesn't matter." You're trying to suggest that it's spurrious to want to see LGBT representation in all games and you're suggesting that that it's only ok to have it in RPG games, that doesn't make any sense and it's not inclusive.

If it doesn't matter then why are you arguing against it? What has it cost you to the point that you have to vocally object to it?

You're then performing some glorious mental gymnastics in saying that artistic freedom should be the norm but you're also complaining that this same artistic freedom is being expressed - which is it? I don't know why you think people asking for inclusion is the same as demanding, it's not.

It's not mental gymnastics. Sorry if you still haven't comprehended it. As someone who is interested in game development and art in general I can tell you nobody will dictate what I put in my games other than me.

We're not talking about choices developers made on their own here. We're talking about them being pressured by external forces to be "inclusive" and explore a topic they had no intentions of exploring like the sexuality of their characters.

johnny_ultimate

Mod note: Back on topic please, this one has spiralled well away from the topic at hand! If there are any other particular issues you want to discuss, feel free to start a new thread.