Drew Harris armoured jeep flung into the air at Garda HQ

PowerToWait

Deleted User wrote: »

Just thinking about it here, if the Commissioner were to get out of a PSNI vehicle at border and into a Garda vehicle at border, then this exchange point would be the most vulnerable point for an attack on him. Is it a regular enough occurrence that vehicles belonging to police forces either side of the border do indeed cross the border for agreed specific purposes like this and that this has just come into broader public knowledge by this occurrence?

In very unfortunate circumstances I was obliged to take a lift in a PSNI vehicle about 13 years ago. The officers apologised for their inability to bring me any further than the border for "obvious reasons" in their words.

As I've pointed out in a different thread, there is just no way armed forces from another state can simply enter into the Irish republic without fear of arrest and trial.

It doesn't matter if it's Dublin, Cork or Blacklion, 100 miles or 100 yards. An inch is a mile in these matters.

pure.conya

fullstop wrote: »

That wasn't the question, though.

they're american, they don't understand jurisdiction

https://www.thejournal.ie/us-army-uniform-shannon-4117778-Jul2018/

pure.conya

PowerToWait wrote: »

In very unfortunate circumstances I was obliged to take a lift in a PSNI vehicle about 13 years ago. The officers apologised for their inability to bring me any further than the border for "obvious reasons" in their words.

As I've pointed out in a different thread, there is just no way armed forces from another state can simply enter into the Irish republic without fear of arrest and trial.

It doesn't matter if it's Dublin, Cork or Blacklion, 100 miles or 100 yards. An inch is a mile in these matters.

unless you were being carried to the border on close protection detail this is nothing like the drew harris affair, just so you know I'm not exactly fond of the whole incident but you can't compare the 2 vastly different situations

janfebmar

Rubberchikken wrote: »

maybe in garda world phones etc havent been invented yet.
they are bloody backward imo.

Sounds like an embarrassing breakdown in communications that Garda HQ did not know their own head was approaching.

expectationlost

can't wait for this story to hit the international newspapers

Tomas81

TomasMacR wrote: »

I don’t know, that’s why I’m asking.

He lives In Holywood, outside Belfast.

Usual he is collected by PSNI land rover driven to Newry/For then taken by ARU. Personal matter arose he didn't use ARU but PSNI conveyed him in. Miscommunication ensued and this was the outcome.

For a start PSNI shouldn't of been on official business within the country.

janfebmar

The Gardai should have been paying for any protection iof the Garda top knob n this state. Those armoured Suv are not cheap. I wonder who will be paying for the damage to it by the Garda? Did any occupants suffer personal injuries or whiplash?

McMurphy

Going to be discussed on Newstalk with Pat Kenny next.

EmmetSpiceland

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Going to be discussed on Newstalk with Pat Kenny next.

What did you think, Johnny?

The main points I got from it were breach of protocol, internal Garda matter and political parties shouldn’t be trying to score points by calling for Harris to explain.

Muahahaha

Tom Cloonan saying that PSNI carrying weapons in the Republic is illegal no matter what way you look at it. What a mess. I wonder who leaked the story too, I'd say Harris has his enemies within HQ

McMurphy

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

What did you think, Johnny?

The main points I got from it were breach of protocol, internal Garda matter and political parties shouldn’t be trying to score points by calling for Harris to explain.

I would add that the security analysis (missed his name) said the story was leaked, suggesting Harris would have been happy enough with the public being kept in the dark about it.

He then tried to suggest that it was common procedure for members of a foreign police force to carry weapons here, but when pressed by Kenny that any mutual agreement for either force to be carrying weapons in either jurisdiction was yet to be agreed/completed, he replied that he was unaware of this.

And as for Harris not needing to explain the clusterfcuk? Give me a break, after then last two commissioner's adopting the same kind of attitude, unless Harris does indeed give some clarity on armed men from a different jurisdiction driving freely through our states streets, and the legality of same, I'm going to go with the meet the new boss, same as the old boss line of thinking.

Distinct whiff of skullduggery surrounding the whole thing, it should not be allowed to be swept under the carpet.

TomasMacR

I don't believe for a second this was a once off. The one time the Garda ARU didn't show up at the border to collect him this event happened? Give a me a break. I'd say it's a lot more likely Harris hasn't been bothering with the transfer all along and his buddies in the PSNI have been dropping him down to Dublin all along. Political point scoring I couldn't give a toss about but this lad has some explaining to do. This is all very familiar with our commissioners, at least his predecessors were acting the bollocks within An Garda Síochána only.

Yurt2

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

He then tried to suggest that it was common procedure for members of a foreign police force to carry weapons here, but when pressed by Kenny that any mutual agreement for either force to be carrying weapons in either jurisdiction was yet to be agreed/completed, he replied that he was unaware of this.

There are of course procedures for foreign authorities/agencies to carry arms in the state; but they would be done with a paper-trail and the consent of probably the Department of Justice (via the Department of Foreign Affairs most likely). When an American President lands in Ireland, there's no way his security are not carrying firearms - but an agreement to carry them would have been sought and secured for the visit's duration, and an itemized list of the weapons would have been provided.


He could have some questions to answer.

Odyssey 2005

Yurt! wrote: »

There are of course procedures for foreign authorities/agencies to carry arms in the state; but they would be done with a paper-trail and the consent of probably the Department of Justice (via the Department of Foreign Affairs most likely). When an American President lands in Ireland, there's no way his security are not carrying firearms - but an agreement to carry them would have been sought and secured for the visit's duration, and an itemized list of the weapons would have been provided.


He could have some questions to answer.

His close close security would be carrying all the time. SS personnel only carry arms when on duty,at rallies talks etc. Their arms are kept in the armoury in Deerfield

AlanG

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

He then tried to suggest that it was common procedure for members of a foreign police force to carry weapons here, but when pressed by Kenny that any mutual agreement for either force to be carrying weapons in either jurisdiction was yet to be agreed/completed, he replied that he was unaware of this.

Agreement for standard armed support has not been reached but there is a different agreement for personal support. The only thing that amazes me it that people actually thought this sort of thing was not standard. Only an idiot would change vehicles at the border every time they crossed it.

Tomas81

This will have serious ramifications that the border was crossed by armed officers in PSNI- Apparently what's being said is they were TSG which weren't armed.

FishOnABike

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

He then tried to suggest that it was common procedure for members of a foreign police force to carry weapons here, but when pressed by Kenny that any mutual agreement for either force to be carrying weapons in either jurisdiction was yet to be agreed/completed, he replied that he was unaware of this.

Ignorantia juris non excusat. The most senior police officer in the country pleading ignorance of not only this but also by inference, basic firearms licencing law in this country, as a defence beggars belief. Whether genuine ignorance or arrogance it requires an explanation.

It is not acceptable for the most senior police officer in the country to be seen to or be open to the perception that he sidesteps procedures and the law, operating a 'do as I say, not as I do' policy as a matter of convenience.

BettePorter

I'd say the cctv footage from the scene was epic. When hitting the barrier switch I'm sure the guard activated the 'big red button ' and coppers probably came running from every where. Imagine the poor guards face when her boss emerged from the back seat. 'Faaaaaaack'!!!!

Yurt2

AlanG wrote: »

Agreement for standard armed support has not been reached but there is a different agreement for personal support. The only thing that amazes me it that people actually thought this sort of thing was not standard. Only an idiot would change vehicles at the border every time they crossed it.

At the risk of asking a foolish question, what is the distinction between standard armed support and personal support?

I'm afraid the general public wouldn't be mostly aware it's standard practice to have armed members of a foreign police force in the state as a routine matter. Not that the Gardai will be offering much information on their protocols on the topic, but one would think that there *should* be a paper trail for foreign police forces packing heat in the state - and not just "I'm the gaffer here, it's grand lads drive on."

Anteayer

He is *not* a foreign visitor. He's the Garda Commissioner.

Anteayer

Anteayer wrote: »

He is *not* a foreign visitor. He's the Garda Commissioner.

and is the first one to need armed protection here. and also in Northern Ireland, but of course, provided by the police in each jurisdiction. No crossover of police into each others jurisdiction.

EmmetSpiceland

Anteayer wrote: »

He is *not* a foreign visitor.

He is when it suits the narrative of some.

Same way the North is a “different state” and a “different jurisdiction” one minute and “our land” the next.

Yurt2

quote="Anteayer;109880236"]He is *not* a foreign visitor. He's the Garda Commissioner.[/quote]

The armed PSNI officers are an extra-territorial agency. Was it following protocol and procedure having armed PSNI in the state?

This is all grand and dandy until they respond to a real or perceived threat and they open fire. What if someone is killed unlawfully by a firearm discharged by an officer who perhaps shouldn't have had the weapon in the state?

Anteayer

I agree on the PSNI officers and that's what I mean. Why isn't his personal safety being handled entirely by the Gardai in this state.
He's the most senior Garda in the country, not a visiting NI dignatory.

When he's in NI as Garda Commissioner he's a visiting dignatory from the Republic.

I mean can you imagine if a former Garda were say head of the Greater Manchester Police, I doubt they'd be expecting the ERU to take them home to their office.

I appreciate they may have lots of operational issues and need to avoid things like swapping cars in a predictable place etc but there are lines that shouldn't be blurred.

Sunny Disposition

Crazy stuff. Harris made the decision to be protected by the PSNI rather than the Gardai, in the Gardai's functional area. He better come up with some explanation.

Just wondering.. when the Taoiseach goes up north for a meeting, is he is driven by a driver from AGS? Would an armed Garda be on board on the journey? Or would all this be pre-consented etc.? Have absolutely zero knowledge on these matters, never really thought about them at all until this, seeking to be enlightened.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just wondering.. when the Taoiseach goes up north for a meeting, is he is driven by a driver from AGS? Would an armed Garda be on board on the journey? Have absolutely zero knowledge on these matters, never really thought about them at all until this, seeking to be enlightened.

Any official business of any person under Garda protection is sorted out in advance. Well in advance.
Individual Gardai cannot & do not just pop over the border, while working, armed or otherwise. In fact, they would be liable to arrest if they were up there armed.

Different countries have different rules for allowing foreign police officers to carry weapons. Irish police do carry overseas, with prior approval.

Remind me

bubblypop wrote: »

Any official business of any person under Garda protection is sorted out in advance. Well in advance.
Individual Gardai cannot & do not just pop over the border, while working, armed or otherwise. In fact, they would be liable to arrest if they were up there armed.

Different countries have different rules for allowing foreign police officers to carry weapons. Irish police do carry overseas, with prior approval.

Exactly.

Any request for protection in a different state is dealt with diplomatically and requests are submitted for firearms, radio frequencies etc...

Would this not be a more proper kind of arrangement. The Commissioner is driven in armoured vehicle by unarmed psni trained police driver who knows how to drive in Emergrncy situations. The car is accompanied to border by a psni armed unmarked car, then AGS unmarked armed car accompanied them from border to Dublin. Or is that normally the standard situation? Was this indeed the case on the day, just that we only know of the psni vehicle and don’t know exactly were arms inside vehicle or in an unmarked following vehicle? Is it really a non-story, that officialdom doesn’t want to have to explain in great detail for security reasons?

riemann

Not seeing this on RTE or the Irish Times websites?

Media blackout? Or am I just not looking in the right place?

HeidiHeidi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would this not be a more proper kind of arrangement. The Commissioner is driven in armoured vehicle by unarmed psni trained police driver who knows how to drive in Emergrncy situations. The car is accompanied to border by a psni armed unmarked car, then AGS unmarked armed car accompanied them from border to Dublin. Or is that normally the standard situation? Was this indeed the case on the day, just that we only know of the psni vehicle and don’t know exactly were arms inside vehicle or in an unmarked following vehicle? Is it really a non-story, that officialdom doesn’t want to have to explain in great detail for security reasons?

If they told you they'd have to shoot you......

MrFresh

riemann wrote: »

Not seeing this on RTE or the Irish Times websites?

Media blackout? Or am I just not looking in the right place?

Most likely they can't confirm the details of the story. There's a lot of versions going around.

Turner

Commissioner Drew Harris is due in front of the Policing Authority on 18th April.

I hope this is questioned publically and an explanation given.

McMurphy

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Crazy stuff. Harris made the decision to be protected by the PSNI rather than the Gardai, in the Gardai's functional area. He better come up with some explanation.

Is it down to the fact, that at the end of the Day, when all is said and done, he just downright doesn't fully trust the Gardai to fully look after him, or that he just prefers his "own type" company?

Has there been any updates on this does anyone know? Will Harris come out and clarify what went on?

Surely this could be easily resolved, it's binary in my opinion, either it's completely legal and above board for the psni to operate while carrying firearms in the Republic, or its not.

Remind me

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Surely this could be easily resolved, it's binary in my opinion, either it's completely legal and above board for the psni to operate while carrying firearms in the Republic, or its not.

Fully legal if permission is given. No different to secret service carrying firearms if an American President is over.

McMurphy

Remind me wrote: »

Fully legal if permission is given. No different to secret service carrying firearms if an American President is over.

If.

All reports online suggest that it was never finalised, we await some clarity on this being the case or not.

The Americans seek approval/permission well in advance by the way.

CrankyHaus

Has there been any corroboration of these allegations, or even an identified source?

Remind me

There can be blanket clearance in some cases

MrFresh

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

If.

All reports online suggest that it was never finalised, we await some clarity on this being the case or not.

The Americans seek approval/permission well in advance by the way.

The Americans would be on diplomatic status anyway wouldn't they? I doubt it is the same process for cross border policing.

AlekSmart

Anteayer wrote: »

I agree on the PSNI officers and that's what I mean. Why isn't his personal safety being handled entirely by the Gardai in this state.
He's the most senior Garda in the country, not a visiting NI dignatory.

When he's in NI as Garda Commissioner he's a visiting dignatory from the Republic.

I mean can you imagine if a former Garda were say head of the Greater Manchester Police, I doubt they'd be expecting the ERU to take them home to their office.

I appreciate they may have lots of operational issues and need to avoid things like swapping cars in a predictable place etc but there are lines that shouldn't be blurred.

VIP's crossing the Land Frontier have always had to exercise caution....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/gibson-a-marked-man-after-judgment-says-cory-1.400989

Det Garda Mostyn and Det Garda Shovlin were assigned to escort the Gibsons after they arrived in Dublin and they travelled in convoy to the Border.

There they stopped where the Gibsons thanked their escorts and shook hands with them before continuing into Co Armagh.

The Garda officers had maintained radio silence throughout and began their return journey. The Gibsons, having driven 400 metres into Northern Ireland, were caught in a massive explosion before they were able to make contact with an RUC escort which was to accompany them to Belfast.

Different times,but similar risks ?

Franz Von Peppercorn

AlekSmart wrote: »

VIP's crossing the Land Frontier have always had to exercise caution....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/gibson-a-marked-man-after-judgment-says-cory-1.400989



Different times,but similar risks ?

Of course the risks aren’t similar. He’s a Garda member coming south in an era when the troubles are over.

AlekSmart

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Of course the risks aren’t similar. He’s a Garda member coming south in an era when the troubles are over.

Oops,my bad,I'd forgotten most activists had gotten a trade or similar qualifications in the interval....:)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/another-cash-machine-stolen-as-spate-of-atm-thefts-continues-1.3852289

Last week, police said that several criminal gangs were behind the series of the raids, with paramilitaries potentially cashing in on some of the ill-gotten gains.

Force Carrier

You don't want a situation where there is a specific geographical point known in advance for which an ambush can be set. So you don't want a pattern of switching vehicles at the exact border crossing. Even at a set number of rotating border crossings because they can pick one and wait every day until it's the one used and then strike.

However there is nothing to stop the changeover happening ten or fifteen miles either side of the border. At random positions arranged over radio each day. In that situation the incursions whilst against the letter of the law are in keeping with its spirit.

Unless of course Harris has less faith in the Garda than the PSNI and wants to stick with them as much as possible. Or unless it's a case of laziness, dispensing with changeover.

Franz Von Peppercorn

AlekSmart wrote: »

Oops,my bad,I'd forgotten most activists had gotten a trade or similar qualifications in the interval....:)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/another-cash-machine-stolen-as-spate-of-atm-thefts-continues-1.3852289

Your bad indeed, because a few remnants of what was a much larger terrorist group engaging in criminality is hardly the same thing.

Are you saying that we are in the same kind of situation as the height of the troubles? That’s not the only problem with your logic - the IRA generally didn’t target the gardai but did the RUC, so if there was a risk going south from the IRA or other Republicans, which there isn’t, it would be more dangerous for the commissioner to be accompanied by the PSNI.

Remind me

MrFresh wrote: »

The Americans would be on diplomatic status anyway wouldn't they? I doubt it is the same process for cross border policing.

For foreign dignitaries looking for armed protection it is dealt with through Diplomatic channels and was generally rare for it to be granted, American and Israeli the exception, it is now more frequent and is common for foreign police to carry here.

The process for north/south is very similar.

Yurt2

Former senior Garda and Interpol / Europol bod weighs in...

Calls it "most unusual" and questions what would the legal standing be if a discharge of firearms occurred:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/psni-escort-for-harris-to-dublin-most-unusual-decision-1.3853154

Worst case scenario - If there was an indecent, and an unlawful killing took place with a firearm that shouldn't have been in the state in the hands of another jurisdiction's officer, imagine the fallout. Extradition tug-o-war, political war of words with London, inquiries, legal fees in the millions, heads on plates left right and center. Foolish cavalier decision.

Ubbquittious

punisher5112 wrote: »

And!

What's the issue with having to stop to prove who you are.

They do so at the Daìl.

Who picks up the tab on this?

Armoured vehicles are in no way cheap.

Would a helicopter not be a much better use of resources as taking a number of vehicles off the road to escort etc...

Ah we are back to the tiger! Helicopter is a much better job all round. Cars are only for plebs

McMurphy

Yurt! wrote: »

Former senior Garda and Interpol / Europol bod weighs in...

Calls it "most unusual" and questions what would the legal standing be if a discharge of firearms occurred:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/psni-escort-for-harris-to-dublin-most-unusual-decision-1.3853154

Worst case scenario - If there was an indecent, and an unlawful killing took place with a firearm that shouldn't have been in the state in the hands of another jurisdiction's officer, imagine the fallout. Extradition tug-o-war, political war of words with London, inquiries, legal fees in the millions, heads on plates left right and center. Foolish cavalier decision.

You'd imagine this guy would know the legality of such things.

“The officers concerned have no authority to carry firearms. There are huge issues around how they would respond and what the legality of it would be, if they were under attack. The only reason you have armed personnel protecting an individual is that it is anticipated they may be subject to an egregious attack.”

Mr O’Brien said there was also the possibility the PSNI officers involved could have been targeted on their return journey.

“Drew Harris needs to indicate why he exercised this particular judgment in this case because it is, in my professional experience, most unusual,” he told RTradio.

“If some incident goes down, what are the rules of engagement? The bottom line is that the gardai and the Defence Forces are the only service permitted to carry firearms in this jurisdiction,” he said.

Yurt2

Remind me wrote: »

For foreign dignitaries looking for armed protection it is dealt with through Diplomatic channels and was generally rare for it to be granted, American and Israeli the exception, it is now more frequent and is common for foreign police to carry here.

The process for north/south is very similar.

I should think that the general public would like to have some light shed on the frequency to which foreign police forces are running around the country armed with weapons.


I do know it happens with high-profile political visitors, but as you mentioned yourself, there is a procedure and a paper-trail involving multiple arms of the state. The Garda Commissioner isn't Caeser; he can't just wave a wand and allow whatever agency he wants to carry weapons at a whim: "fire away there lads, just don't shoot anyone in the head - I'll get in fierce trouble."

Shaque attack

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