David's going Dairying.

Base price

tractorporn wrote: »

Is there anyone left with the 40/50 cow herd anymore or is it anyway viable. Are we at the stage where its scale or nothing?

There are a few around me in Longford/Cavan and most of them have really nice set ups. I know more 50 cow herds than 150+ cow herds.

wrangler

Base price wrote: »

There are a few around me in Longford/Cavan and most of them have really nice set ups. I know more 50 cow herds than 150+ cow herds.

I know one as well, has a really nice lifestyle, reared a family and all

Water John

I can count five within a 3 km radius. Four of them rearing families. Now some would be just a over 50.

tractorporn

Tileman wrote: »

Neighbour here converted from dry stock to dairying in past 2 years. Has about 40 cows. Wouldn’t have much more potential to expand beyond that

Base price wrote: »

There are a few around me in Longford/Cavan and most of them have really nice set ups. I know more 50 cow herds than 150+ cow herds.

wrangler wrote: »

I know one as well, has a really nice lifestyle, reared a family and all

Water John wrote: »

I can count five within a 3 km radius. Four of them rearing families. Now some would be just a over 50.

Cheers for the replies everyone. Story here is that we only have 43 acres around the yard so had kinda ruled out the idea of milking cows. But never ruled it out totally, there's another 110 acres in three other parcels closest one is about half a mile up the road the furthest is 12 mile away. Glad to here that the smaller herd is still viable as max we could carry here would be around the 45 mark. Maybe I'm mad.

Bass Reeves

tractorporn wrote: »

Cheers for the replies everyone. Story here is that we only have 43 acres around the yard so had kinda ruled out the idea of milking cows. But never ruled it out totally, there's another 110 acres in three other parcels closest one is about half a mile up the road the furthest is 12 mile away. Glad to here that the smaller herd is still viable as max we could carry here would be around the 45 mark. Maybe I'm mad.

If it good enough to milk cows it good enough to finish cattle and make money off dry stock. Find any sort of job with it. At this stage anything less than 70-80 cows is a struggle. At least with the drystock and job you will not be tied to the place.

GrasstoMilk

tractorporn wrote: »

Cheers for the replies everyone. Story here is that we only have 43 acres around the yard so had kinda ruled out the idea of milking cows. But never ruled it out totally, there's another 110 acres in three other parcels closest one is about half a mile up the road the furthest is 12 mile away. Glad to here that the smaller herd is still viable as max we could carry here would be around the 45 mark. Maybe I'm mad.

What's your soil type like? Free draining?
You could push your 43 ac to 60 cows if all reseeded and in good heart
Have 2 neighbours here with 40-50 cows .one got in 2 years ago, other is getting in next year
If you can get in fir reasonable money I couldnt see why it wouldnt be a runner
Most farms would have been 40/50/60 cows not so long ago

tractorporn

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If it good enough to milk cows it good enough to finish cattle and make money off dry stock. Find any sort of job with it. At this stage anything less than 70-80 cows is a struggle. At least with the drystock and job you will not be tied to the place.

We already finish everything here both cattle and sheep go to Athleague and there's not a pile out of it. We bring everything from birth to slaughter. Tbh I'm trying to get away from a job.

Water John

How much land is on the block, half a mile away? Zero graze at night?

tractorporn

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

What's your soil type like? Free draining?
You could push your 43 ac to 60 cows if all reseeded and in good heart
Have 2 neighbours here with 40-50 cows .one got in 2 years ago, other is getting in next year
If you can get in fir reasonable money I couldnt see why it wouldnt be a runner
Most farms would have been 40/50/60 cows not so long ago

Soil is very variable from sandy loam on the height, to black Moor and onto brown earth over blue gley which is wet. A good bit has been reseeded but nearly half of it would need to be reseeded. My idea would be to start small and build if surplus grass is there each year.

JustJoe7240

tractorporn wrote: »

Anyone here get the farming indo this week or have access to the online version?

If like to have a read of this article but its behind a pay wall and no one close to us bought it this week.
https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/dairy/is-a-50-cow-dairy-start-up-a-better-bet-than-a-loss-making-drystock-farm-35287736.html

I would be in a very similar scenario here but with more land(110 acres) away from the home place for silage so would be interested to see if the figures stack up.

.

I recently received a phone call from a young farmer looking at the option of converting from drystock farming into dairying. However, he only had 40ac around the yard and he wasn't sure if he had sufficient scale for the project to be financially viable.

I arranged to call out to the farmer's place later in the week to assess the land quality, facilities and to complete a five-year business plan to assess how realistic his ambition was. The land quality was good, free-draining soil and while old permanent pasture dominated, all fields contained reasonable levels of ryegrass and little weeds.

There were little or no farm roadways present. There was a beef slatted shed alongside an old cubicle house which could have been upgraded easily to accommodate 30 cows. A new milking parlour and dairy were required.

The farmer's main motivation for converting to dairying was that his current system of farming was not delivering a profit. His system of farming at present involves purchasing weanlings and carrying them through to fattening. He also works off farm.

We completed a business plan at the kitchen table and after much discussion we decided that a gradual increase in stock numbers was probably the most prudent way to approach the conversion.


This way the debt levels could be kept relatively low. It was decided that he should purchase 30 cows to start with and we budgeted €45,000 to do this.

The construction of the parlour, dairy, purchase of a second hand 10-unit machine and second hand bulk tank were all costed and he is confident that he can complete all works for a further €45,000.

This left the farmer with an initial start-up cost of €90,000, all of which has to be borrowed.

If this amount was borrowed over seven years at 4.5pc interest then this would lead to an annual repayment of €15,000 approximately. The sale of existing stock will be used to construct a new 20-cow cubicle house in 2017.

I have summarised what the farmer's five-year cashflow plan looks like.

In the plan we made a number of assumptions: milk price of 30c/l; we used the profit monitor average costs; we put output per cow starting at 5,000 litres (400kg milk solids) and rising to 6,000 litres (500kg milk solids); cow numbers are 30 in 2017, 40 in 2018 and 50 every year thereafter.

There are a few points to be noted. The farmer only has 15ac outside of the milking block that used mostly to cut silage from. Therefore, he has decided to buy in replacements from one source annually.

A whitehead or Angus bull will run with the herd, with all calves sold. The targeted output per cow is high, but the budget allocated to purchase cows is generous and John is confident of hitting these targets. Capital allowances and bank interest are looking after the tax bill until 2020, when it starts to climb.

So is it feasible to run a 50-cow dairy herd in Ireland in 2017?

The farmer will not draw any income from the farm for the first three years. For the following four years he will earn an income of €6,000-€8,000 annually.

When the loan is fully paid off after seven years, there will be a further €15,000 available as drawings. Coupled with this, he intends spending €10,000 annually for three on reseeding and roadways which should be sufficient to reseed the entire farm and provide adequate roadways. When this work is complete this €10,000 will also be available for drawings.

However, the tax bill will also be higher at this stage. We have also taken a worse case scenario regarding culling and purchasing replacements and hopefully the reality is that this bill be much lower in practice.

By 2024, there is potential for John to be making a pre-tax income of €35,000. But by then he will have spent 7 years working for a relatively modest income. Is this enough reward for a person who will be milking cows early in the morning before heading off to the day job and repeating the exercise late in the evening when he returns home?

Base price

JustJoe7240 wrote: »

.

:eek::eek:

tractorporn

Water John wrote: »

How much land is on the block, half a mile away? Zero graze at night?

Yeah its a possibility but I'd prefer not to have to get into a pile of machinery if possible starting out anyway. But its 48 acres up the road and 38 acres 4 mile away so it could be a runner long term

tractorporn

JustJoe7240 wrote: »

.

Thanks Joe

Thats softened my cough! No drawings for 3 years?

JustJoe7240

tractorporn wrote: »

Thanks Joe

Thats softened my cough! No drawings for 3 years?

It doesn't make for the most encouraging reading I'm afraid.

Pinsnbushings

JustJoe7240 wrote: »

.

The farm here would be similar scale to that case study, only with two outfarms totalling 50 acres.. Difference being my father always milked cows and we have no debt. It leaves figures similar to what is mentioned maybe a bit more.
I've noticed a massive change over the last couple of years from people almost making little of you "you'd be better of with a few drystock or you'd be as far on to lease it out" type of thing to lots of lads asking have we a few Bob out of it and saying there thinking of getting into milk at a similar number of cows.
Now I work off farm and I don't see a full time future in it for me at that scale but while the boss man is healthy and I can help out we'll stay at it. IF you are at a stage in life where you are almost looking for more a lifestyle job and be your own boss it could be a good option.
You wouldn't want to be starting into a 30 year mortgage or rearing young lads, and it won't sustain borrowings but it's profitable all the same.

Bass Reeves

tractorporn wrote: »

Thanks Joe

Thats softened my cough! No drawings for 3 years?

150 acres
BPS will be 12k minimum during this CAP program
ANC 4-5k
Next environment scheme 5+k
Going into milk if you go intensive will limit green payments during this CAP program.

Options milk 50 ish cows or push to 70+ with zero grazing finish all culls and calves.

Others options calf to beef, weanling to beef or store to beef. Stocking would depend on land time, but dairying is no answer to problem land types either.

My mother used to say when poverty comes in the window love flies out the door. It could be similar with small scale dairy farming with high debt levels and poor cash flow.

Pinsnbushings

I agree that's why I say there won't be a future for me in it long term, but there are situations where it suits. If I had 150 acres, unless in 1 block, but wasn't in milk already, would I get in..? honestly no.
But each to there own i could see with maybe a 10 to 15 year time frame to retirement, and little to no borrowings how it could be an option.. As long as you enjoy farming and are looking to get out of a job.

Mooooo

https://twitter.com/teagasc/status/1324796217860202503?s=19
Webinar Monday may be interesting for some of ye

tractorporn

Mooooo wrote: »

https://twitter.com/teagasc/status/1324796217860202503?s=19
Webinar Monday may be interesting for some of ye

Peter Hamme actually is only the other side of the river from us in the land half a mile up the road.

Bass Reeves

Pinsnbushings wrote: »

I agree that's why I say there won't be a future for me in it long term, but there are situations where it suits. If I had 150 acres, unless in 1 block, but wasn't in milk already, would I get in..? honestly no.
But each to there own i could see with maybe a 10 to 15 year time frame to retirement, and little to no borrowings how it could be an option.. As long as you enjoy farming and are looking to get out of a job.

I would not be getting into milk in my 50's it's a young man's game. Generally in your 50's you have a huge demand for money as kids go through college and maximising pensions benefits that you can draw when retiring.

Anither consideration is drawing down a few hundred k in debt( if banks will lend it) and maybe investing other available cash in an enterprise that will limit options for retirement or for inheritance.

I am semi retired and farming 60 ish acres, I can finish 60 stores that will leave a net margin of 15k plus add in GLAS(it small 1700 euro) ANC will bring me well up over 25k. I have an an old farm house done up and rented and another rental. Last year I worked 20 hours a week for 6 months that earned over 10k. Only did half that this year.

There is easier ways to retire and farm than being tied to a milking parlour twice a day 6-7 days a week for 10 months of the year.

kerryjack

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I would not be getting into milk in my 50's it's a young man's game. Generally in your 50's you have a huge demand for money as kids go through college and maximising pensions benefits that you can draw when retiring.

Anither consideration is drawing down a few hundred k in debt( if banks will lend it) and maybe investing other available cash in an enterprise that will limit options for retirement or for inheritance.

I am semi retired and farming 60 ish acres, I can finish 60 stores that will leave a net margin of 15k plus add in GLAS(it small 1700 euro) ANC will bring me well up over 25k. I have an an old farm house done up and rented and another rental. Last year I worked 20 hours a week for 6 months that earned over 10k. Only did half that this year.

There is easier ways to retire and farm than being tied to a milking parlour twice a day 6-7 days a week for 10 months of the year.

That's the way to go. A lot of lads are going Dairy because they feel they can make a living out of land and give up the day job that they might not be that fond of. Parttime work is the way to go and a bit of farming on the side and you have the best of both worlds. You are out and about meeting people, work colleagues, and than you have plenty time for a bit of farming. Only problem is it's hard to find partime work around here because we have to travel a bit for work anyway. The woman are good at job sharing but the lads hasn't caught on yet

farawaygrass

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I would not be getting into milk in my 50's it's a young man's game. Generally in your 50's you have a huge demand for money as kids go through college and maximising pensions benefits that you can draw when retiring.

Anither consideration is drawing down a few hundred k in debt( if banks will lend it) and maybe investing other available cash in an enterprise that will limit options for retirement or for inheritance.

I am semi retired and farming 60 ish acres, I can finish 60 stores that will leave a net margin of 15k plus add in GLAS(it small 1700 euro) ANC will bring me well up over 25k. I have an an old farm house done up and rented and another rental. Last year I worked 20 hours a week for 6 months that earned over 10k. Only did half that this year.

There is easier ways to retire and farm than being tied to a milking parlour twice a day 6-7 days a week for 10 months of the year.

Whst kinda part time job did you get? 6 months =26 weeks, 20 hrs a week x 26 weeks is 520 hours. 10k divided by 520 is just over 19e/hr.
hard to get full time, not mind part time work work paying that kinda money round here

Siamsa Sessions

In case it’s of any use to anyone, this is my plan:

* Start milking 35 cows in 2022, OAD in shoulders of the year, and continue working part-time (5 half-days/week)

* Expand to 65-70 in 2024 when we unlease land back from current tenant and give up “day job”

Debt starting off will be approx €1.5-2k. I’ll tear into repayments as we can manage the house/kids with just the part-time job. We’ve managed this with the last 2 years as I took no drawings (there weren’t any to take!) from the sheep/calves.

I’m tracking how many hours I’m currently working per day and will continue this for the next while to see what kinda hours I’m spending around the yard

I’m more than happy to share the good, the bad, and the ugly on here in the hope it might be useful to others and maybe help people avoid some of the mistakes I make.

I don’t expect or assume any of our 3 young lads will go farming but I’d like to give them the option and let them see what being a farmer is like. I’ll have nothing to show them from Daddy being an office worker.

If it works out then great. If it doesn’t I’ll change things again. I’ve made a few big changes in my 20 years of working so I don’t mind change!

Siamsa Sessions

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

In case it’s of any use to anyone, this is my plan:

* Start milking 35 cows in 2022, OAD in shoulders of the year, and continue working part-time (5 half-days/week)

* Expand to 65-70 in 2024 when we unlease land back from current tenant and give up “day job”

Debt starting off will be approx €1.5-2k. I’ll tear into repayments as we can manage the house/kids with just the part-time job. We’ve managed this with the last 2 years as I took no drawings (there weren’t any to take!) from the sheep/calves.

I’m tracking how many hours I’m currently working per day and will continue this for the next while to see what kinda hours I’m spending around the yard

I’m more than happy to share the good, the bad, and the ugly on here in the hope it might be useful to others and maybe help people avoid some of the mistakes I make.

I don’t expect or assume any of our 3 young lads will go farming but I’d like to give them the option and let them see what being a farmer is like. I’ll have nothing to show them from Daddy being an office worker.

If it works out then great. If it doesn’t I’ll change things again. I’ve made a few big changes in my 20 years of working so I don’t mind change!

Is this debt 1.5k to 2k per cow??

Fair play for going for it

Siamsa Sessions

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is this debt 1.5k to 2k per cow??

Fair play for going for it

Yeah, per cow. I’m pricing a lean-to onto existing cubicles at the moment. Have a parlour sorted but need a bulk tank and a few other bits will all add up. I had hoped to hit €1k per cow but need to be realistic. We built our own bungalow in 2016-17 so have some minor experience of chasing lads and “negotiating” prices.

Should have said above too - I’m 44 this year and reckon I’ve 20-25 years left before retirement. If I was any older, I’d probably have to forget about becoming a full-time farmer.

Bass Reeves

farawaygrass wrote: »

Whst kinda part time job did you get? 6 months =26 weeks, 20 hrs a week x 26 weeks is 520 hours. 10k divided by 520 is just over 19e/hr.
hard to get full time, not mind part time work work paying that kinda money round here

It ran to slightly over 6 months 28 weeks there was a performance bonus and and expenses. Basic was 14/ hour as well any unused annual leave was paid as a lump at the end. As hours were flexible( except you had to work 7 hours on Saturdays however I managed to get one off and work a weekday instead) it ment I accumulated nearly all the AL as a lump at the end.

Bonus worked out at about 600 euro and as you used your own car you got a bit of milage and an out of pocket expenses of 5/ day.

It was in a fairly specialist are PM send

Grueller

kerryjack wrote: »

That's the way to go. A lot of lads are going Dairy because they feel they can make a living out of land and give up the day job that they might not be that fond of. Parttime work is the way to go and a bit of farming on the side and you have the best of both worlds. You are out and about meeting people, work colleagues, and than you have plenty time for a bit of farming. Only problem is it's hard to find partime work around here because we have to travel a bit for work anyway. The woman are good at job sharing but the lads hasn't caught on yet

Your last line jack is hitting the nail on the head. The wife went job sharing 3 years ago. I kept an eye on how little she actually lost from her take home pay and took the plunge myself and cut back to half hours this year. Now we both have relatively high value employment but we are able to pay the mortgage, rear the kids, run the house and put a bit aside for college funds from that.

I went into milk with the target of 60 cows. I will have 50 in the spring and finishing up reseeding this coming year will leave me space to go to 60 the following year.
I love the change and how easy the stock are to handle. However,I am playing farming simulator as I don't need to take a living from it. I have borrowings of €2000 a cow at 60 cows between the residue of a land purchase and the dairy setup. I don't mind taking no drawings for 2-3 years as the kids are still young and I will have all loans clear by the time they hit college.

Bass Reeves

Grueller wrote: »

Your last line jack is hitting the nail on the head. The wife went job sharing 3 years ago. I kept an eye on how little she actually lost from her take home pay and took the plunge myself and cut back to half hours this year. Now we both have relatively high value employment but we are able to pay the mortgage, rear the kids, run the house and put a bit aside for college funds from that.

I went into milk with the target of 60 cows. I will have 50 in the spring and finishing up reseeding this coming year will leave me space to go to 60 the following year.
I love the change and how easy the stock are to handle. However,I am playing farming simulator as I don't need to take a living from it. I have borrowings of €2000 a cow at 60 cows between the residue of a land purchase and the dairy setup. I don't mind taking no drawings for 2-3 years as the kids are still young and I will have all loans clear by the time they hit college.

My better half job shared for over 15 years. When you factor in we bother were on the high tax rate we did not drop a lot in take home when she opted for it. Reduced cost of child care, less work related to expenses. We only needed one fairly good car. No over compensating with money because we were time poor with the children. It allowed me to push on in my work area and take better paid work options. Bought the farm during this period. This drove our ability to put kids through college tax efficiently. All of them attended college away from home.

It funny all during the noughties we drive 6+ years old cars. Some of our childrens friends threw money around like confetti. However all of ours had there own cars by 18 years of age and we funded fees and accommodation and they funded there own lifestyles.

Panch18

Grueller wrote: »

Your last line jack is hitting the nail on the head. The wife went job sharing 3 years ago. I kept an eye on how little she actually lost from her take home pay and took the plunge myself and cut back to half hours this year. Now we both have relatively high value employment but we are able to pay the mortgage, rear the kids, run the house and put a bit aside for college funds from that.

I went into milk with the target of 60 cows. I will have 50 in the spring and finishing up reseeding this coming year will leave me space to go to 60 the following year.
I love the change and how easy the stock are to handle. However,I am playing farming simulator as I don't need to take a living from it. I have borrowings of €2000 a cow at 60 cows between the residue of a land purchase and the dairy setup. I don't mind taking no drawings for 2-3 years as the kids are still young and I will have all loans clear by the time they hit college.

Super stuff Gruller and other lads on here. Really interesting to hear yer stories and changes

The big thing in Ireland is tax. With the high rate up at 51% with everything added in people are working a lot of extra hours that are going straight to the government. As Warren Buffet says “As one of the richest men in the world I can buy anything I want, EXCEPT time”. So working all these extra hours and with additional responsibility etc people really need to think to themselves if it’s worth it and are they themselves seeing the benefit of it or is the government the real winner

Now of course lads part time farming have a great opportunity to get great farm set ups and offset the losses against the high rate tax from the job. This is probably the easiest way to get a farm well set up nowadays.

Grueller

Panch18 wrote: »

Super stuff Gruller and other lads on here. Really interesting to hear yer stories and changes

The big thing in Ireland is tax. With the high rate up at 51% with everything added in people are working a lot of extra hours that are going straight to the government. As Warren Buffet says “As one of the richest men in the world I can buy anything I want, EXCEPT time”. So working all these extra hours and with additional responsibility etc people really need to think to themselves if it’s worth it and are they themselves seeing the benefit of it or is the government the real winner

Now of course lads part time farming have a great opportunity to get great farm set ups and offset the losses against the high rate tax from the job. This is probably the easiest way to get a farm well set up nowadays.

Happiness comes not from having more but being satisfied with less.

I am no philosopher, I just heard that a few weeks ago and thought it was a great saying