Sleep or lack of!!

AndyBoBandy

lazygal wrote: »

None of mine would take a soother (didn't even bother buying one for number three) and I'm glad in the long run because they can be so difficult to get them to give them up!

We noticed one night our lad didn't have the soother in his mouth (about age 2), so the next day completely stopped using them, and hid them all, and it was no issue at all! We were shocked as we'd heard horror stories about weening off soothers!!

Woden

You can look at controlled timed crying also.

Meeeee79

Charles Ingles wrote: »

Far from cruel, you must be a new parent

Charles Ingles Im a new parent myself so please less of the judgement on my post.

I dont agree with your cry it out method what so ever, new parent or not, its not natural to leave a small baby to cry their heart out and eventually learn not to cry because they know nobody is coming.

My post was more so asking what peoples experiences were with babies naturally improving and when as I totally understand that a 6/7 month old baby has needs 24 hours a day.

Thanks for everyones suggestions, the nappy change one is something I had never heard!

Long weekend approaching so I think I will attempt to settle, settle and resettle for afew nights without the bottle and see how we go. Pray for me

lazygal

Best of luck. Hopefully a gentle sleep approach will do the trick.

shesty

Absolutely, I don't think anyone here is advocating letting a baby cry for hours.There is a big difference between going in and out to them every 5/10 mins when they are grizzling or talking, vs letting them cry for ages (which I just could not do myself).By sitting it out,I mean literally that...I used to sit on the landing and go in every 5/10 mins.I did let that stretch a bit longer to 15/20 mins as time passed a bit and I felt they were beginning to drop off and going in too often was disturbing them.

Small babies wake at night, it's what they do because they go in and out of deep sleep all night, as do adults.But equally, humans are hard-wired to need sleep at night, especially if he has been in the habit of sleeping.So it is a case of just readjusting his habits a bit.I always think that biologically, they do want to sleep, so you help them to do that.

greenwaving

Another perspective here because I am surprised that so many seem to be advocating variations of cio...

Babies wake frequently at night. This is completely normal and to be expected. Some more so than others. Sometimes its for hunger/thirst, sometimes for comfort, sometimes for a nappy change, sometimes because they are unwell, sometimes cos they just need a little help getting back over. Frequent waking is actually a key biological protection against SIDs, particularly in the early days. The best thing I did for my own sanity in that first year was accept that my baby would wake, sometimes a lot (teething, sleep regressions) and other times when I was lucky less so. It really did help mentally when I knew that this would happen, expected it and accepted that it was normal and not necessarily something to be fixed.

The second thing I would say is that it does get easier. A lot easier. Toddlers can still wake a times at night but it certainly becomes less frequent as they get older. So it will improve just with the age of the child.

Sleep exhaustion is obviously very tough for new mothers so I can completely understand you being at your wits end and trying "anything" to get those precious hours - I co-slept for almost all of the first year and it really helped. However, I would caution against some of the suggested sleep "solutions". Gina Ford never had her own children and her methods have been called into question as lacking any type of evidence (basically only based on her opinion no evidence based facts or biological reasoning) and have been flagged as potentially damaging by child psychologists. CIO and timed crying have been questioned for similar reasons - no evidence for them and they could cause damage. They can sometimes work (some babies respond better than others, some are better sleepers than others) but it is thought to work because the babies learn that when they cry no-one responds to them so they just learn to stop crying (not the most heart warming introduction to sleep for a young baby).

That is not to say there are not things you can do. You don't have to respond to every grizzle - sometimes babies wake cry out and quickly put themselves back to sleep again and by you going into the baby you end up actually being the one to wake them up (you learn pretty quickly to differentiate the different sounds). A good calm and predictable bed time routine helps them go to sleep. Darkness in the room helps. As does making sure the temperature is right. White noise can help for some babies as do a cuddly toy or blanket (although my baby didnt respond to a toy in bed until she was almost 18 months and slept fine without one until then). The suggestion re a lullaby is really good - we found playing this on our phones helped put her back over 90% of the time, the other 10% of the time she obviously just needed us for something and we went into her.

Your baby is still quite young that waking for food is probably still to be expected. But there are gentle ways of weaning off the bottle at night when you are both ready by gradually reducing feeds - I breastfed and was able to night wean gradually by myself from about 8 months. There are books out there that give a simple sleep guide (The Gentle Sleep book is one) and do not require you leaving your baby to cry or to go cold turkey on night feeds.

And time is the greatest help. Honestly it does get easier. Your baby won't wake in the middle of the night forever. And trust me you will miss some of those late night snuggles when they do (not all the time obviously as it feels sooo good when sleep finally comes!). They are only little for such a short time so embrace the snuggles.

Edit: I just saw your post OP. Best of luck this weekend. You will find something that will help and it will get easier. Music still really works for us. We kind of discovered it by fluke when she was upset in the car seat on the motorway and we couldn't stop. Totally calms her down and comforts her. Spotifiy Premium so we can play songs on repeat without adverts was one of my best baby buys

Charles Ingles

Meeeee79 wrote: »

Charles Ingles Im a new parent myself so please less of the judgement on my post.

I dont agree with your cry it out method what so ever, new parent or not, its not natural to leave a small baby to cry their heart out and eventually learn not to cry because they know nobody is coming.

My post was more so asking what peoples experiences were with babies naturally improving and when as I totally understand that a 6/7 month old baby has needs 24 hours a day.

Thanks for everyones suggestions, the nappy change one is something I had never heard!

Long weekend approaching so I think I will attempt to settle, settle and resettle for afew nights without the bottle and see how we go. Pray for me

I wasn't being judgemental at all. I was called cruel.

Digs

Excellent post greenwavering +1 to all you said!
I took a much gentler approach in that I stopped tying myself in knots trying to “fix” sleep on my 2nd and 3rd babies, once I accepted and realised all of this was normal and would pass and we’re all the happier for it.

Best of luck OP, I hope this weekend goes well!

Anne_cordelia

Digs wrote: »

Excellent post greenwavering +1 to all you said!
I took a much gentler approach in that I stopped tying myself in knots trying to “fix” sleep on my 2nd and 3rd babies, once I accepted and realised all of this was normal and would pass and we’re all the happier for it.

Best of luck OP, I hope this weekend goes well!

Agreed!

Milly33

I dont think Ingalls meant it that way either OP, it is very true though that while it is very annoying but the statement is true you are so causious with the first born then after a few months your like yeah your grand...

That is another one do you change the nappy at night or do you leave it till they wake in the morning. All kids are differant but we used to change herself at around 12 every night (tried the dream feed idea and sure twas like waking the Antichrist) but when you went to change the nappy she would barely stir and then stay settled for the night...


Everyone has a different opinion on what to do, think tis harsh to call people cruel for letting their little ones cry for a few mins, and also then for people who dont want to let the little one cry well that is what they choose, so no rights and wrongs just think about what works for ye and the baby best of luck..

Would ye think of settle the baby also in the room before giving the last feed? This was a big thing with GFord, have the baby ready for bed in gro bag etc whatever you use, turn off all the lights, and then give the feed.. They are nice and sleepy and just ready to be put in the cot. Black out blinds are a great idea also if the room can be bright...

irishgrover

TCP/IP wrote:

Even as an Apple fan I can see Tesla been a perfect purchase for them as they continue to move into the world of automotive. Also for Apple is a perfect fit as a populist brand. Just look at the EV threads all EV fans given the choice would like a Tesla, could Apple be the answer to Elon's problems.

There would be a very significant clash of cultures imho. Apple is very much about brand over produce ... It has always followed form over function, control over creativity and profit above all else. Meanwhile over at Tesla it's the cult of imagination and possibility.....sending roadsters into space and whatnot......I can't imagine apple would have much interest in that....
Then again, apple could probably introduce a level of control and uniformity to Tesla that could, from a fiscal point of view make it much more stable, but at what cost to creativity...

Milly33

haha how did that get in here

s4uv3

Charles Ingles wrote: »

Far from cruel, you must be a new parent

Nope. I've been at this a good while now. Hence my comment. Don't assume things you clearly know nothing about.

Jurgen The German

Have you tried swaddling OP and having baba on their side?

Our second is now 8 months and she has been sleeping through the night since she was two months old without a night feed.

Our first used to get a dream feed around 11 or so but this one never really did.

Purple Lemons

My little buddy is 7 months this week and fingers crossed learning to get himself through the night. We've had one wake and feed back to sleep Mon, Tues, Wed night and Thurs, Fri he slept 6:45pm-7.10am, 7pm-6:30am. I'm probably gonna be thrashed for admitting this but I always fed him back to sleep, as I did with my now nearly 3yo. If you even made eye contact throughout the night they'd be all giggles and smiles looking to get up and play so I'm like a silent ninja..lob the bottle in and run back out. I even left em cry for 5 minutes the odd time to see could they get themselves down without help. Call me cruel if ye'd like but they're happy kids and I'm a happier mother for being rested. Hope you do get some sleep OP and do whatever works for you and your baba

shesty

To the OP - I believe Lucy Wolfe's book has some very good guidelines for helping babies to sleep.I've heard it recommended highly and her articles are always very good and common sense.

OctoberMammy

Finding this post very helpful, especially greenwaving's post. My little guy is 6 months and going through a similarly turbulent time. He used to go off at bedtime no problem at all, now it's a battle to get him down for naps and he's waking more frequently. We started him on solids a couple of weeks ago so I'm thinking it might be that, and/or just an age thing. Have to remind myself that it's just a phase! I've also got into the bad habit of rocking him to sleep because it's the only thing that works right now. The whole sleep thing is a huge anxiety trigger for me, there is so much conflicting information and advice out there. We are just trying to take each day as it comes, but easier said than done when you dread the nights!

Charles Ingles

OSI wrote: »

I don't want get up on your back too much because other's have already done so, but I remember questioning my wife on this when our son was having turbulent nights as she works in the psychology and behavioural field and she assured me there are mountains of research to show that the CIO it method can be damaging to baby's development, future mental health (can lead to increased incidences of anxiety later in life) and damages the trust bond between baby and parent. There's also a danger of the caregiver becoming desensitised to baby's cries for help and missing cues to something being amiss elsewhere at other times.

Hi to be honest it wouldn't have been my chosen method and with first two children I had many rows with my wife due to me intervening and comforting the children,
But having seen the results I concluded my wife was right as she mostly is.
To be honest gave up on thread because of the hassle but thanks for thoughtful post.
I always hated to hear children crying but once my wife stuck to her guns after a couple of weeks the children were extremely settled at nighttime.
I've four grown up healthy children thank god and hopefully I haven't offended anybody with my experiences

mrcheez

I don't have any kids so this question is more of a curiosity, but why don't people try earplugs?

I wear earplugs when I'm on a plane if surrounded by toddlers and the volume is reduced down to a much more tolerable level, but I would have thought that a rested parent is far better for the child than a parent who may be incapacitated due to stress/exhaustion?

If you are stressed or exhausted you might make a mistake that puts the child in danger.

I understand it might be because you want to listen out if the baby is in danger during the night, so perhaps if you are a single parent then maybe you'd have to be "all ears" but with couples I'd imagine each parent could take turns being the one "who gets to wear earplugs that night" ?

pwurple

Earplugs are fine when it's not your own children, and you are not their carer. The idea is that you support eachother as parents and support the babies growth. You can get anything from failure to thrive, cognitive impairment, or even death from ignoring a baby. We took turns for the waking. 12am , 3am, 6am...

Usually the baby doesn't scream for hours, just until you come in and settle them down with whatever the need is. If they are screaming for hours, there's something wrong, you need to take some action, not pop earplugs in.

I'm not a fan of crying it out, because you can easily miss something, it's taking a risk, deliberately neglecting a babies cries. Illness, or an arm being caught somewhere can get missed if you're ignoring them. I understand it, sure... especially if overwhelmed with a lot of children like in CharlesIngles case above, or at exhaustion limit. But it wouldn't be the gold standard, you know?

mrcheez

Earplugs don't necessarily have to completely block out all noise, just reduce it down so that the screaming doesn't cut into you and cause stress. The foam earplugs I use reduce sound by maybe 60% so I can hear everything just fine (like a baby screaming for example) but without the associated stress.

Similar to the earplugs you get for concerts etc.

Anyway was just curious more than anything.

Chopper83

I've a 5 month old baby and 2 year old and our toddler is giving us much more bother since moving to a 'big boys bed'. He hasn't slept in it all night once.

Consistency is key they say..

jlm29

When my eldest boy was 9.5 months old or so, and had been weaned from breastmilk to formula for a few months, I did start giving bottles of water instead of milk when he woke at night. I used to walk the floors with him, and offered him milk rather than water, and after a few nights he stopped waking.
With my other kids, I just rolled with it, but I kept breastfeeding until after one, so it was easy enough to just feed and settle them back to sleep. They all sleep soundly through the night now.
My only advice is to do what works best for you and your family. You’re obviously not happy with the night wakings, so a few nights intervention may help, whatever form the intervention takes. There’s a couple of books I often see recommended “sweet sleep” and “the no cry sleep solution”. A friend had great results with Lucy Wolfe, though I know there’s very mixed opinions on her, I have no personal experience, so can’t comment!

“The nights are long, but the years are short”. I used to announce that to anyone who felt the need to tell me what I “needed” to do when my babies were small.

shesty

You don't use earplugs because you are hardwired to respond to your baby.Basically.Even if you had earplugs in, and you knew your child was crying, your natural instinct is to respond to them.For me anyway, it would be virtually impossible to sleep, even with earplugs, if my kids were crying.I couldn't do it.

Mr Ingles, to be fair, your wife did what was done at that time.There is a lot more research out there now on cio methods and much more is known.But if you have adult children, that's just what was done in those days by many people. :-)

October mammy, the best thing you can do ishelp your child figure out how to drop off himself.But he is still so small, it is totally ok for him to need you.I sat with mine every night, they used to hold my fingers til they dropped off, and gradually, they stopped needing that reassurance.The only thing about helping through rocking etc is will you still be able to do that in a year or two year's time?It's much easier to find a way when they are small to help them go into their bed awake and drop off, with you sitting with them, maybe with a little teddy against their cheek too (in time, the comfot of the teddy may replace you), or you rub their forehead or something.Something you can still do as they get bigger and heavier basically!!!

Milly33

Oh i have to leave this thread before i end up being banned....

mirrorwall14

I found this very helpful from another source. I wouldn’t be one for letting baby scream the house down either but some can be incredibly against it and I was worried



No peer-reviewed research has reported detrimental effects from sleep training.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/4/643

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2016/05/21/peds.2015-1486

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/122/3/e621

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/3/e203

Here's a look at the Middlemiss study, which is usually cited by people against sleep training or extinction (CIO): https://expectingscience.com/2016/04/21/the-middlemiss-study-tells-us-nothing-about-sleep-training-cry-it-out-or-infant-stress/

And here are the authors of some of the studies on child abuse and neglect say that anti-sleep-training people are mis-citing their work: http://ideas.time.com/2012/05/10/the-science-behind-dr-sears-does-it-stand-up/

A little information on the "cortisol" fear.

"In terms of their effects, the difference between short-term and chronic stress is one not of degree, but of kind. Short-term stress enhances memory; chronic stress impairs it. Short-term stress boosts the immune system; chronic stress weakens it.
So where does that leave us? A little stress, even in infancy, is fine, if not beneficial, but too much for too long is very, very bad.

Do we know exactly where sleep training fits in this spectrum? Just how much stress does a baby experience during cry-it-out?

The short answer is that we don’t know for certain. Everything we do know, however, suggests that this amount of stress, in the context of a warm, loving family, is just fine.

I believe that sleep training is not only not harmful, it is beneficial. Successful sleep training can decrease depression and chronic stress in the parents, and this benefits parents and their babies. Unlike sleep training, having a depressed mother during early childhood has been shown, repeatedly, to be linked with worse long-term outcomes for children."

https://expectingscience.com/2016/04/12/critics-of-cry-it-out-fundamentally-misunderstand-how-stress-affects-the-brain/

" To measure the effects on the babies, the researchers did something interesting: they measured the level of cortisol, a stress hormone, in the babies’ saliva. They also asked the mothers about their levels of stress. Twelve months later, they looked for any emotional or behavioral problems in the babies, and they also did testing to see how attached the babies were to their mothers.

Here’s what they found. The babies in the graduated extinction group and the bedtime fading group both fell asleep faster and had less stress than the control group — and not only that, their mothers were less stressed than the control group mothers. Of the three groups, the extinction group babies were less likely to wake up again during the night. And when it came to emotional or behavioral problems, or attachment, all three groups were the same.

This means that it’s okay to let your baby cry a little. It’s not only okay, it may lead to more sleep all around. Which makes everyone happier."

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/new-study-says-okay-let-babies-cry-night-201605319774

OctoberMammy

shesty wrote: »

October mammy, the best thing you can do ishelp your child figure out how to drop off himself.But he is still so small, it is totally ok for him to need you.I sat with mine every night, they used to hold my fingers til they dropped off, and gradually, they stopped needing that reassurance.The only thing about helping through rocking etc is will you still be able to do that in a year or two year's time?It's much easier to find a way when they are small to help them go into their bed awake and drop off, with you sitting with them, maybe with a little teddy against their cheek too (in time, the comfot of the teddy may replace you), or you rub their forehead or something.Something you can still do as they get bigger and heavier basically!!!

Yeah, it's only been the past couple of weeks that I've been doing this, normally patting or shushing/singing to him would suffice... I'm going to try phase out the rocking this week. He went into his own room over the weekend (although I slept in with him the first couple of nights) which didn't help matters, but hoping that he'll settle in the next week or so. I do have a small teddy/comforter that smells of me that I've been putting in with him, with the end goal of weaning him off the soother... we'll see what happens with that down the line - taking one battle at a time at the moment!

Sorry to hijack thread, OP!

Anne_cordelia

mrcheez wrote: »

Earplugs don't necessarily have to completely block out all noise, just reduce it down so that the screaming doesn't cut into you and cause stress. The foam earplugs I use reduce sound by maybe 60% so I can hear everything just fine (like a baby screaming for example) but without the associated stress.

Similar to the earplugs you get for concerts etc.

Anyway was just curious more than anything.

Because some of us believe in responding to our child’s needs, not ignore them.

In general society, I don’t understand why a baby needing comfort or reassurance is seen as such a bad thing. If an adult you loved needed comfort or reassurance, would you leave them to cry it out or figure it out on their own? I wouldn’t. Therefore I’m not going to leave a defenseless child to either.

shesty

OctoberMammy wrote: »

Yeah, it's only been the past couple of weeks that I've been doing this, normally patting or shushing/singing to him would suffice... I'm going to try phase out the rocking this week. He went into his own room over the weekend (although I slept in with him the first couple of nights) which didn't help matters, but hoping that he'll settle in the next week or so. I do have a small teddy/comforter that smells of me that I've been putting in with him, with the end goal of weaning him off the soother... we'll see what happens with that down the line - taking one battle at a time at the moment!

Sorry to hijack thread, OP!

You're right, don't inflict the soother row on yourself yet!!!It takes time, he is still small.Once you accept that, and relax about it, he will pick up on that.

My monkey goes into his cot alright at bedtime, but he hurls soothers around the place when he wants attention!!

fits

For me the main thing with the sleeping is to have very low expectations. Personally I believe it’s normal enough that some won’t reliably sleep through until they are four.