Discovery 2x13 'Such Sweet Sorrow' [Spoilers & Theories Within]

Inviere

Anteayer wrote: »

That was probably the worst piece of sci-fi I've ever watched.
Cartoonish and tugging at the heart strings in a way no esposide of Trek should.

It was like a teen soap opera. Has Disney sudden bought the franchise ?!?

Honestly I can't disagree, it was awfully contrived.

expectationlost

if they were going to do an episode like that they could have shown 2 on the same night... I mean wtf was all that?

expectationlost

did emoklingon not do something that last time they wanted to delete the sphere data? not the sphere data itself?

and when they came up with the idea to put the discovery into the future I thought they'd came up with that idea last week, (or was that just for the suit?)

CramCycle

expectationlost wrote: »

did emoklingon not do something that last time they wanted to delete the sphere data? not the sphere data itself?

and when they came up with the idea to put the discovery into the future I thought they'd came up with that idea last week, (or was that just for the suit?)

Nope, he was sent by S31, albeit Leyland/Control, to steal the data and he stopped right before he was about too, I thought. Although it was ambiguous enough you could imply he stopped it being deleted. This said, the crew all said the sphere data incrypted itself or put up firewalls, blah blah, nonsensical techno jargon, to say it was the sphere data itself.

No one seems overly concerned that the data itself is clearly showing all the key parameters for sentient life. Very un ST not to point this out and also just to try killing an essentially peaceful creature without looking to hard for other possibilities.

GSPfan

CramCycle wrote: »

No one seems overly concerned that the data itself is clearly showing all the key parameters for sentient life. Very un ST not to point this out and also just to try killing an essentially peaceful creature without looking to hard for other possibilities.

Ha ha ha. Spot on. I actually hadn’t noticed that. In TNG they had an episode about the little worker robots (can’t be bothered googling their name, Isomorph maybe) doing the same thing.

Just googled it .... they were Exocomps.

corkie

My own speculative theory for the Borg Origin story!

I will spoiler tag it, because it is a theory for the final episode and people might not want to read?

[*] Micheal opens the Wormhole to the future.

[*] Goes through and Discovery follows her through, with Spock left behind in a Shuttle.

[*] Then Leland and Section 31 Control infected ship, tries to follow through as the wormhole is closing.

[*] Just as he is entering gets fired on by Enterprise, he get's thrown of course and somehow ends up in the past in Delta Quadrant. Due to using a closing and unstable wormhole.

OldMrBrennan83

corkie wrote: »

My own speculative theory for the Borg Origin story!

I will spoiler tag it, because it is a theory for the final episode and people might not want to read?

[*] Micheal opens the Wormhole to the future.

[*] Goes through and Discovery follows her through, with Spock left behind in a Shuttle.

[*] Then Leland and Section 31 Control infected ship, tries to follow through as the wormhole is closing.

[*] Just as he is entering gets fired on by Enterprise, he get's thrown of course and somehow ends up in the past in Delta Quadrant. Due to using a closing and unstable wormhole.

I'd be thinking along those lines too.

Liamalone

Awful episode, so many bugbears as already mentioned. What particularly annoyed me was the tie in with the silly Queen, I thought that I had missed an episode. Not everybody has watched the minisodes fgs.

GSPfan

Those mini episodes actually should have come with a spoiler warning. They gave away a major part of the seasons ending. I kind of thought they were just cool little stories that didn’t connect to the main story but they are completely tied in to the season arc. I won’t spoil it for fear there is people who haven’t seen them but the one with the ships computer has to happen so it again spoils it a bit.

alchemist33

expectationlost wrote: »

where is the rest of starfleet?

They don't have superfast Sarek-shuttles

AtomicHorror

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I honestly look forward to reading how anyone can explain away how bad what I just watched was. Awful all round from a show that hasn't exactly set the bar high anyway but continues to fail even still.

I think most felt the episode was weak- a bridging episode with a lot of melodrama. I didn't mind it as much, but there sure was a lot of goodbye-ing, and we definitely need Discovery to refocus itself as an ensemble show.

It was great to see more of Enterprise though.

So, not much argument. I do think we're all still baffled at why you hurt yourself, week-in, week-out, but I've a feeling we'll still be wondering about that for some years to come. Discovery isn't going anywhere, and apparently you're coming along for every screaming, self-flagellating moment.

GSPfan

Discovery could also just spore drive jump into the Delta Quadrant for a while to figure out what they are going to do. Did I miss something as to why they can’t just do that? Hanging around the Alpha Quadrant for Section 31 to come find them seems slightly convenient for the plot.

AtomicHorror

GSPfan wrote: »

Discovery could also just spore drive jump into the Delta Quadrant for a while to figure out what they are going to do. Did I miss something as to why they can’t just do that? Hanging around the Alpha Quadrant for Section 31 to come find them seems slightly convenient for the plot.

I guess, because they'd already figured out what to do? Or thought they had. Destroy Discovery. It didn't work, so now they have a new plan. Seems like they're already convinced its the only solution, so jumping to the delta quadrant would only serve to keep them away from the only planet where they're certain the tech exists to power the new angel suit. It also gives Control more time and risks Control figuring out the plan and blockading said planet.

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

Discovery could also just spore drive jump into the Delta Quadrant for a while to figure out what they are going to do. Did I miss something as to why they can’t just do that? Hanging around the Alpha Quadrant for Section 31 to come find them seems slightly convenient for the plot.

Yeah they kept making a point of saying "oh we cant run they'll find us anywhere" like okay but you could TRY

Inviere

Am I right in thinking Leland is dead, and he's just the embodiment of the Control AI now, which means Control is in 'control' of Section 31?

GSPfan

Inviere wrote: »

Am I right in thinking Leland is dead, and he's just the embodiment of the Control AI now, which means Control is in 'control' of Section 31?

I assumed the people on board all those Section 31 ships were now either dead or assimilated for want of a better word. I didn’t think they are just following his orders. I thought Control can navigate the ships by being in the ships computers.

And yeah I think it’s assumed he is dead but you might get the classic “He’s in there but has no control of his actions” scene where he’s able to do one last heroic thing to help save everyone.

Inviere

GSPfan wrote: »

I assumed the people on board all those Section 31 ships were now either dead or assimilated for want of a better word. I didn’t think they are just following his orders. I thought Control can navigate the ships by being in the ships computers.

Yeah maybe that, meaning Section 31 is essentially gone? Ash & Georgiou though, do they know about Leland being dead/replaced?

GSPfan

Inviere wrote: »

Yeah maybe that, meaning Section 31 is essentially gone? Ash & Georgiou though, do they know about Leland being dead/replaced?

Yeah of course they do. Sure Ash got stabbed by him after seeing him regenerating or whatever, and Georgiou fought him on the planet.

Inviere

GSPfan wrote: »

Yeah of course they do. Sure Ash got stabbed by him after seeing him regenerating or whatever, and Georgiou fought him on the planet.

Of course As I mentioned previously, I'm not having the most enjoyable time with Discovery of late, I'm devoting energy to trying to figure out stuff that happened 10 mins ago, while new stuff is happening on screen. A rewatch is urgently needed.

So unless Control has infected most of the rest of S31, then where the hell are they and Starfleet to provide support??

seamus

Yeah, most likely the season finale will see the S31 ships either destroyed or recommissioned as starships, and Georgiou and Ash the only two S31 officers left.

Thus setting the stage to resolve the canon issues and launch the new S31 series, by Starfleet "officially" disbanding S31 while Ash and Georgiou go travelling around the galaxy conducting black ops on behalf of starfleet.

Inviere

seamus wrote: »

Thus setting the stage to resolve the canon issues and launch the new S31 series, by Starfleet "officially" disbanding S31 while Ash and Georgiou go travelling around the galaxy conducting black ops on behalf of starfleet.

It's a messy resolution though, given Section 31 already existed in secret during Enterprise. Discovery made them commonplace, public knowledge. Now it has to put them back in the box again. It's one of the things in the show they got badly wrong imo, a shadowy secret organisation that everyone knows about. They really should have been Starfleet Intelligence imo.

Goodshape

A little surprised at the universal hate for this episode on this forum. The only other place I read Star Trek waffle is on Reddit and they seem happier about it.

Were people just expecting and excited for something else based on the episode preview at the end of last week? Someone mentioned "next week looks great! Space battles!", or something like that, and yeah – that didn't happen. And people often complain "if it's in the preview it's not a spoiler", but getting excited for things that don't happen the way you're expecting them to is exactly why I don't watch those previews!

The long goodbyes were a bit much but no more and no worse than we've had elsewhere this season, and if they actually pay it off and it really is the last we see (in this series at least) of Pike, Spock (maybe), Enterprise, Ash, Sarak, Amanda... then a bit of a long goodbye isn't uncalled for. And otherwise there some great character stuff in there (I thought everyone wanted more of that?), the 'extra' characters getting plenty to do (I thought everyone wanted more of that?) and a decent look at the fantastic 1701 update, without too much action and 'splosions going on.

It didn't advance the "main arc" much? I guess. Maybe I'm alone in not being all that interested in the "main arc". It's fine but.. meh.. I prefer an episode that can stand on it's own a bit and not just be a series of action set pieces.


To each their own I suppose. I thought the Arium episode was pretty great too. Obviously I'm a bit out of sync with the majority here :-P

Dave0301

Goodshape wrote: »

A little surprised at the universal hate for this episode on this forum. The only other place I read Star Trek waffle is on Reddit and they seem happier about it.

Were people just expecting and excited for something else based on the episode preview at the end of last week? Someone mentioned "next week looks great! Space battles!", or something like that, and yeah – that didn't happen. And people often complain "if it's in the preview it's not a spoiler", but getting excited for things that don't happen the way you're expecting them to is exactly why I don't watch those previews!

The long goodbyes were a bit much but no more and no worse than we've had elsewhere this season, and if they actually pay it off and it really is the last we see (in this series at least) of Pike, Spock (maybe), Enterprise, Ash, Sarak, Amanda... then a bit of a long goodbye isn't uncalled for. And otherwise there some great character stuff in there (I thought everyone wanted more of that?), the 'extra' characters getting plenty to do (I thought everyone wanted more of that?) and a decent look at the fantastic 1701 update, without too much action and 'splosions going on.

It didn't advance the "main arc" much? I guess. Maybe I'm alone in not being all that interested in the "main arc". It's fine but.. meh.. I prefer an episode that can stand on it's own a bit and not just be a series of action set pieces.


To each their own I suppose. I thought the Arium episode was pretty great too. Obviously I'm a bit out of sync with the majority here :-P

It was the poorest episode of season 2 for me. No real cohesion in the story or plot development.

I don't think showing the bridge crew writing/recording their goodbyes is real character development, nor was Pike's one sentence summary of the bridge crew members.

The issue with this episode is that it doesn't really stand on its own. It could have been condensed into 15/20 minutes and added onto the season finale.

Inviere

Goodshape wrote: »

It didn't advance the "main arc" much? I guess. Maybe I'm alone in not being all that interested in the "main arc". It's fine but.. meh.. I prefer an episode that can stand on it's own a bit and not just be a series of action set pieces.

That's a bit harsh toward those who prefer a story to play out over an arc no? Not every arc is 'splosions 'n stuff. That said, when it comes to Discovery, I completely agree. Thus far I've much preferred the non-arc based episodes, where things have a bit of room to breathe.

corkie

Goodshape wrote: »

And otherwise there some great character stuff in there (I thought everyone wanted more of that?), the 'extra' characters getting plenty to do (I thought everyone wanted more of that?) and a decent look at the fantastic 1701 update, without too much action and 'splosions going on.

That would have been appreciated across the season, but seeing 'messages home' from characters we hardly know at this stage was kind of pointless. And very boring, as mentioned some people skipped past them parts.

The cast is too big for a show of this nature. The availability of character-centric side episodes is very limited, with a 13 episode run so they shoehorned in all this into one filler episode.

GoT is the only show, which I can think of, which is just about managing to keep all the character story arcs and give them life, but it has had an 8 season arc to allow this. It looks like we are sticking to single season arcs with DSC.

CramCycle

Goodshape wrote: »

The long goodbyes were a bit much but no more and no worse than we've had elsewhere this season, and if they actually pay it off and it really is the last we see (in this series at least) of Pike, Spock (maybe), Enterprise, Ash, Sarak, Amanda... then a bit of a long goodbye isn't uncalled for. And otherwise there some great character stuff in there (I thought everyone wanted more of that?), the 'extra' characters getting plenty to do (I thought everyone wanted more of that?) and a decent look at the fantastic 1701 update, without too much action and 'splosions going on.

Thse were not long goodbyes though, they went above and beyond long goodbyes, they were poorly written waffle. Poor writing, poor editing. Parts of the episode were good but it was overpowered by the poorly written parts. It could have been solved with one long goodbye and then sweeping shots of the rest of them. Its a rushed series, I am fine with that, but shoehorning stuff liek this in makes no sense and adds to the only issue I have with Discovery, that the pacing is a mess.

To each their own I suppose. I thought the Arium episode was pretty great too. Obviously I'm a bit out of sync with the majority here :-P

I loved the Arium episode, it was well written, nice stand alone piece without the main arc but they done what they had to and covered both angles. The difference in tempo and writing was night and day. This episode could have been shortened to 20minutes, and depending on the finale, either have that added on or expand it out backwards to fill this one.

Goodshape

Inviere wrote: »

That's a bit harsh toward those who prefer a story to play out over an arc no? Not every arc is 'splosions 'n stuff.

Ah no, I didn't mean to suggest the main story arc was bad or that it was all 'splosions and nonsense. It's fine, it's just not what I'm here for personally.

Dave0301 wrote:

It could have been condensed into 15/20 minutes and added onto the season finale.

Maybe, but then we'd be back to the problem of this series rushing through everything. This was the episode before the final. Stands to reason it'd be more buildup than payoff. Let's wait and see the payoff before condemning it.

corkie wrote:

That would have been appreciated across the season, but seeing 'messages home' from characters we hardly know at this stage was kind of pointless.

But at least we saw them? It's a little late but at least it's there. I feel I'm getting to know these characters more and more and I like that.

corkie wrote:

And very boring

I'll grant you it wasn't exciting but I didn't find it boring. I enjoy anything I can get of these underused characters.

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

Thse were not long goodbyes though, they went above and beyond long goodbyes, they were poorly written waffle. Poor writing, poor editing. Parts of the episode were good but it was overpowered by the poorly written parts. It could have been solved with one long goodbye and then sweeping shots of the rest of them. Its a rushed series, I am fine with that, but shoehorning stuff liek this in makes no sense and adds to the only issue I have with Discovery, that the pacing is a mess.


I loved the Arium episode, it was well written, nice stand alone piece without the main arc but they done what they had to and covered both angles. The difference in tempo and writing was night and day. This episode could have been shortened to 20minutes, and depending on the finale, either have that added on or expand it out backwards to fill this one.

Yeah I was going to point to the Airiam episode to highlight that they can get it right. They do not have the luxury of character episodes for the sake of it, they built in loads of Airiam development and explained her cybernetics all to drive the main plot forward. It worked, it worked more than well.
Just lumping in random montages is not going to fit well and will grind the story to a halt

CramCycle

corkie wrote: »

That would have been appreciated across the season, but seeing 'messages home' from characters we hardly know at this stage was kind of pointless. And very boring, as mentioned some people skipped past them parts.

Also at a time when they really shouldn't have time to do it, chatting to each other about who they regret not saying goodbye too, or even recording them while they work would have made sense. Instead you have one of the heads of engineering sitting back to record a monologue while, and I could be wrong, he is overseeing the outfit of shuttles to be mini ships of war, designing and building a time suit using moulding rather than replication, all while trying to figure out how to activate a time crystal and then fix an unforeseen problem left by the queen of another race, who appears to be far smarter than almost everyone in the room, possibly the entire series.

Only for most of them possibly won't survive, i would be considering court martial proceeding s against a good few of them for stupidity.

And its not like some episodes or series where the timeframe is unknown, they make a point of saying how far away the S31 ships are, alot. And it is not that far.

A better writer, if it was forced by the production team or higher up would have had him working away at something and recording it while he was working, this would have been tolerable, having time to have a chat and do nothing else was just beyond idiocy.

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

A better writer, if it was forced by the production team or higher up would have had him working away at something and recording it while he was working, this would have been tolerable, having time to have a chat and do nothing else was just beyond idiocy.

That would have been a good way to do it actually, having them also showing the signs of strain and not being able to say all they wanted to because they can only give the recording a portion of their attention as they are focused on an impossible task against the clock

Rawr

CramCycle wrote: »

Its a rushed series, I am fine with that, but shoehorning stuff liek this in makes no sense and adds to the only issue I have with Discovery, that the pacing is a mess.

+1, I think that nails one of my main issues with parts of the show, which alas also contibute to dulling the potential of episodes like this one.

This isn't the first time they've messed up the "Ticking Clock / Countdown" scenario and they certainly did in this case too. In the episode we are ment to believe that a large fleet of Borg-lite S31 super-ships are less than an hour away (or something short like that). Thus, you'd expect a bit of urgency, which they do manage to get right during the exac of Discovery. They even had this brief moment where Tilly has to make a snap choice on which snow-glow she'll save from her room. This little scene fueled the sense of urgency in a way that made sense.

However, once they fail to destroy Discovery, that urgency is thrown out the window. Now we have time to hang out with Tilly's friend: Queen Tilly of the Till-i-osians. Never mind the impending Borg-lite attack...there's plenty of time for a chin-wag with old buddies about super-science. Then add all of the goodbye video blog scenes and long goodbyes all over the place and in the end there is no more urgency....which is just wierd in a Ticking Clock situation.

I feel that much of this episode should have been a mad scramble to get ready for the battle. Things not working. Things working just in time. The goodbyes should have been built into these moments.

Kind of like this:
Bridge: *2 minutes remaining, all crew to battle stations!!*

Crew 1: "I gotta go up there and recalibrate the ODN relay, otherwise we're screwed."
Crew 2: "Always the damned ODN relay, we really should stop using them. Well...I guess this is it then...."
Crew 1: "I guess so.....you take care of yourself....."
Crew 2: "....you too"
[ODN Relay explodes killing them both]
Bridge: *My bad...they were actually here now attacking us...I got the time wrong...whoops....*

Goodshape

The pacing of this season has been pretty bad. No arguments there!

It's like half the writers room want to get on with the plot and the other half want to show a lovely Star Trek crew being extra nice to each other and having inspirational speeches. You end up getting both, just really badly integrated.


Also there was a really jarring cut/edit in this episode between everyone on the Enterprise bridge discussing the failed Discovery auto-destruct, to an exterior shot of the Enterprise warping away followed by Discovery spore-jumping. At first I thought Discovery must be moving itself under the power of Control but no, next shot showed all the crew back onboard the Disco. Didn't get any sense of time passing in-between those shots. Felt odd.

Also seemed odd that Control was capable of disengaging the self destruct, and raising shields to protect itself, but totally incapable of doing anything else to stop the crew getting back onboard to carry out their plans.


So yeah, not a perfect episode at all. Still an enjoyable one though!

corkie

Goodshape wrote: »

Also seemed odd that Control was capable of disengaging the self destruct, and raising shields to protect itself, but totally incapable of doing anything else to stop the crew getting back onboard to carry out their plans.

Your mixing up your AI in that comment?

Control AI is on the Section 31 ships.
The Sphere Data (with a possibly developing AI) is on Discovery.

Goodshape

corkie wrote: »

Your mixing up your AI in that comment?

Control AI is on the Section 31 ships.
The Sphere Data (with a possibly developing AI) is on Discovery.

Ah, yeah, I guess I am!

I suppose the 'The Sphere Data' is less devious and conniving. Doesn't want to be destroyed but doesn't really have an opinion on what happens otherwise. That explains it.

seamus

Goodshape wrote: »

Also seemed odd that Control was capable of disengaging the self destruct, and raising shields to protect itself, but totally incapable of doing anything else to stop the crew getting back onboard to carry out their plans.

As corkie says, you're mixing up your AIs.

The idea is that the sphere data has developed a rudimentary intelligence capable of basic survival instincts such as shutting off the auto-destruct and raising shields. Calypso expands on this a little.

Burnham's premonition sequence was a bit "off". Because we see Enterprise fire on Disco, shields go up, Burnham has her premonition, and then we go back to before Enterprise had fired, and Burnham tells them not to bother, that Disco will protect itself.

This explains why the crew were able to get back onboard (i.e. the shields were down), but the way they showed it made it seem like Burnham had jumped back in time.

Overall, the self-aware ship protecting itself is a bit of an iffy one. We already know that the ships have manual overrides everywhere allowing anything from the warp core to the computer core to the deflector dish, to be ejected without computer assistance.
We also know that the shields aren't infallible and a photon torpedo tuned to the shield frequencies will pretty much annihilate any ship.

The sphere data can't be *so* self-aware that it is invincible. If that was the case, then everyone would just pile onto Disco because it won't allow the S31 ships to attack it.

So yeah, it just seems like they didn't try very hard to destroy Discovery. "Computer shut down the self-destruct and it will raise shields if we fire. I guess we'll have to try and send it into the future instead".

I'm happy to accept it for the sake of a story, but it's a pretty big plot hole. There are a million different ways to "fool" the ship into being destroyed and the only way none of them could work, is if the ship is a LOT more self-aware than they're portraying.

GSPfan

I like Discovery when I don’t think too hard about it. If I put on my critical glasses it falls apart pretty quickly. I think I let it away with a lot of stuff because I watch it on a Friday night when I’m tired and my brain is fried from work so I generally don’t want to think too much.

Unfortunately I watch The Walking Dead on a Monday night when I’m rested and my brain is active for the week ahead and I could tear that show apart with the levels of stupidity it reaches.

Goodshape

GSPfan wrote: »

I think I let it away with a lot of stuff because I watch it on a Friday night when I’m tired and my brain is fried from work so I generally don’t want to think too much.

That probably helps alright

My Discovery viewing is about 7 or 8pm on a Friday, with a beer or two (and I don't drink often) and maybe a sneaky smoky. I'm looking for that Star Trek hug. Not in the mood to nitpick.

There was some episode this season that I had to watch on the Sunday afternoon and I definitely remember not enjoying it as much.

Anteayer

Inviere wrote: »

It's a messy resolution though, given Section 31 already existed in secret during Enterprise. Discovery made them commonplace, public knowledge. Now it has to put them back in the box again. It's one of the things in the show they got badly wrong imo, a shadowy secret organisation that everyone knows about. They really should have been Starfleet Intelligence imo.

Not unlike 20th and 21st century intelligence agencies though. It's fairly reasonable to assume that you'd have similar issues with overreach in the future and this is a drama afterall.

GSPfan

I’m not too bothered by the Section 31 popularity as in a world where probably all data is stored digitally it would make sense that they might purge all knowledge of them from record and that no one would know much about their existence in the future.

But it’s been a common theme of this show to introduce something to seemingly regret it and undo it over time.

CramCycle

GSPfan wrote: »

But it’s been a common theme of this show to introduce something to seemingly regret it and undo it over time.

like Number 1s comments about Holograms, we get it, your fitting in, please stop mentioning it.

Rawr

CramCycle wrote: »

like Number 1s comments about Holograms, we get it, your fitting in, please stop mentioning it.

Yea...that one did feel a bit on the nose...

Number One: Captain! We have permanently removed all Holograms from the Enterprise, forever! In addition, I have ordered any crew member mentioning Section 31 to be ejected into space, I have booked Spock a lobotimy to remove the part of his brain that remembers Michael (and maybe Sybok too...) and the bridge-window is due to be replaced with our old tiny 2x3 Viewscreen next week.

CramCycle

Rawr wrote: »

Yea...that one did feel a bit on the nose...

Number One: Captain! We have permanently removed all Holograms from the Enterprise, forever! In addition, I have ordered any crew member mentioning Section 31 to be ejected into space, I have booked Spock a lobotimy to remove the part of his brain that remembers Michael (and maybe Sybok too...) and the bridge-window is due to be replaced with our old tiny 2x3 Viewscreen next week.

Also the reason for doing it, somehow it is easier to mimic a 2D or 3D viewscreen than a hologram. I imagine in the future, they will take as much processing power, but if they just stuck with Pike saying he hated them as they looked like ghosts, that would have been enough.

pixelburp

I kinda get Pikes point of view though. It would be like talking to ghosts and I speculate that it'd be a hard one to sell as a real piece of tech. Would be a huge cognitive leap to adapt our brains into accepting there-but-not-there communication with people. I would argue that many would reject glitching phantoms, and it's not like things like teleconference robots have taken off here. Not to mention the pragmatism of space issues in having to reserve an area of your house for holocommunications.

CramCycle

pixelburp wrote: »

I kinda get Pikes point of view though. It would be like talking to ghosts and I speculate that it'd be a hard one to sell as a real piece of tech. Would be a huge cognitive leap to adapt our brains into accepting there-but-not-there communication with people. I would argue that many would reject glitching phantoms, and it's not like things like teleconference robots have taken off here. Not to mention the pragmatism of space issues in having to reserve an area of your house for holocommunications.

I get it completely, but the fact is that everyone else had accepted it. I agree with Pikes reasoning, but there is no need to explain it more than once, he is the Captain, we already get his viewpoint from a few episodes earlier. This sort of pointing out the obvious is once again, really insulting.

This said, despite all my moaning about this being the worst episode of the show, it still had some really cracking bits in it, a good editor and rewriter would have gotten this down to 20 minutes of brilliance.

Stark

The holograms going out of fashion thing I could easily understand. We've seen it ourselves in the current century with AR/VR/holographic technologies. Something becomes the fashion for a while and then a few years later it's like it never existed. View screens do the job just fine, why persist with the gimmicks?

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

I get it completely, but the fact is that everyone else had accepted it. I agree with Pikes reasoning, but there is no need to explain it more than once, he is the Captain, we already get his viewpoint from a few episodes earlier. This sort of pointing out the obvious is once again, really insulting.

This said, despite all my moaning about this being the worst episode of the show, it still had some really cracking bits in it, a good editor and rewriter would have gotten this down to 20 minutes of brilliance.

A sinlge 1.5 episode finale mqsh up of that and the coming episode
That would have been the way to go:(

Evade

GSPfan wrote: »

I’m not too bothered by the Section 31 popularity as in a world where probably all data is stored digitally it would make sense that they might purge all knowledge of them from record and that no one would know much about their existence in the future.

Humans live a lot longer in the 23rd/24th century, McCoy was in Encounter at Farpoint, and there are plenty of aliens that seem to live longer than humans.

Stark

Yeah Spock was around the whole way right up to after the events of Nemesis.

corkie

Stark wrote: »

Yeah Spock was around the whole way right up to after the events of Nemesis.

He only half human, and Vulcans have a long lifespan.

From Memory Alpha, I found that Vulcans have a life span of about 200 years. (ENT: "Broken Bow"; TNG: "Sarek"). ... It is my understanding that they live longer than humans, therefore I think what is meant is 200 Earth years or 360 Vulcan years.

And Spock was technically reborn/recreated in the Search for Spock?