Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

mikeybhoy

Is there a possibility that the Railway Order will not be granted?

When will we know if a Railway Order has been granted?

How long after a RO has been granted will construction commence?

CatInABox

It is indeed possible that it'd be rejected, but that would be highly unlikely. The most likely outcome is approval with conditions, with those conditions being on the minor end of the scale.

To get rejected, the NTA would have had to make a fundamental mistake somewhere in the project, and, so far anyway, it doesn't appear to have done so.

cgcsb

Minimum 1 year for RO and another year to tender. Late 2024 seems best case scenario for construction start and you're talking a 6 year construction schedule, absolute best case.

spacetweek

The gov already said 2025 to start construction, and more like 7 years to build plus 1 to 2 years of testing/commissioning. That would be 2034 worst case.

Your dates (assuming only 1 year for testing/setup) are 2031 best case - fingers crossed things go well.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686404#Comment_119686404

I wonder is the 7 year estimate full of padding though. It seems long when you look at other urban tunnelling projects in Europe. I would think it's prudent to pad because its impossible to say what fresh crisis could happen the way the world is lately.

yer man!

I wonder if it's a mistake for them to go through with a barrierless ticketing system. I can't help but feel that it will be abused resulting in manual ticket checking on an automated train...

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687713#Comment_119687713

Of course there will have to be ticket inspections, that would have to be the case even with barriers.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119686404#Comment_119686404

Its not as simple as X years of construction plus years of testing and commissioning on top. There will be three separate construction contracts with individual completion dates. Once the middle section, with depot, is handed over they can take delivery of the first train and things can start. I can see them trialing trains north of the M50 for a year or more before the tunnel is completed. The tunnel will of course bring it's own difficulties but the systems and procedures will be well bedded in by then, teething problems dealt with and a lot of knowledge built up.

Sierra Oscar

The Railway Order Application is now available online for anyone interested. It includes detailed alingment and structure drawings.

https://www.metrolinkro.ie/

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119687713#Comment_119687713

We have that now on luas and dart and it's standard in Germany and Scandinavia

p_haugh

One thing I didn't realise initially was that there'll be a turn back just north of the airport. I assume this allows a service to terminate at the airport and then switch tracks to go back in service towards Charlemont.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688495#Comment_119688495

If metro west were ever built it'll allow trains from tallaght to turn around at the airport and trains from Sandyford would continue to Swords

spacetweek

On the metrolinkro.ie site, in the DRAFT ABP Cover Letter, on page 11 there is an invoice for €100,000. Did TII have to pay ABP 100 grand to submit the order?

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688529#Comment_119688529

Have to account for the bribes these days 😀

yer man!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688434#Comment_119688434

Does it work though? Getting on the Luas I can see patchy compliance with the public.

Qrt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119690526#Comment_119690526

There’s not a single system in Germany where they have ticket barriers. The only time I’ve seen barriers in a German station was at the entrance to the toilets! That said, ticket inspectors have a lot more power and you will genuinely find yourself in a cell if you’re caught.

Fare compliance on the Luas is very high in general.

spacetweek

We are nothing like Germany and Scandinavia in this respect and turnstiles deter robbery (because muggers will not enter if they have to pay a fare - this was found in NYC) and serve as a way to control crowds. I think we're making a mistake here.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119690526#Comment_119690526

Compliance I'd high. How can you tell how high compliance is from observing? Unless you're a ticket inspector

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119690526#Comment_119690526

I get the luas every day. Inspectors get on pretty much every day. It’s very, very rare for people not to have tickets

I’m not suggesting it’s 100% but it’s wrong to suggest compliance isn’t very, very high

And I don’t think it’s any different to any country with barrier free ticketing

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691865#Comment_119691865

Yeah I see very few people getting caught and I’d say at least once a week I’d have ticket checked, most that are caught are likely casual users who think it’s unlikely that tickets are checked as much as they actually are.

Zebra3

You’d wanna be pretty thick to be caught on the Luas without a ticket.

Just move down the carriage or get off when you see inspectors getting on.

I remember years ago in Amsterdam trams being surrounded by gangs of inspectors and there was no way you could avoid them.

Thelonious Monk

Yes trams in Melbourne are the same. When I lived there I was often broke as I would drink all my money and had to not pay, it was a real white knuckle ride as inspectors were so common. Never got me though!

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119688529#Comment_119688529

Yes, planning applications aren't processed free of charge. It's €100,000 for a railway order application regardless of its a metro or a level crossing closure. So €100,000 for each DART+ railway order application too. €60,000 for each BusConnects Core Bus Corridor and most big road projects. Commercial planning applications can cost tens of thousands depending on the size of the building. Generally €3.60 per square metre. There's only a nominal fee for residential applications.

Qrt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691586#Comment_119691586

Sorry I have to argue the NYC point, literally anybody who doesn’t pay for their fare in NYC just hops the turnstiles or gets through an open gate. And at $2.75 a ride who could blame them.

JohnnyChimpo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119690526#Comment_119690526

The measure of whether it "works" is not 100% compliance, it's whether the money lost to fare avoidance is 1EUR less than the cost of implementing barriers throughout.

Brian CivilEng

I've missed DARTs due to being stuck waiting to go through the turnstiles because of passengers leaving the station. When the result of ticket checking is that legimate users get delayed I think the system has failed. Barrier free is the way to go.

L1011

Busy stations with very limited barriers, plus Irish Rails decision to not have directional setups anywhere, can both cause major issues of that type (people being stuck due to the other direction 'winning') when there's demand both ways at the same time. Like any central station plus some oddities like Maynooth which has bi-directional peak demand due to the colleges.

spacetweek

There are more buildings being demolished at Tara St to build the underground station than I expected. All of the Poolbeg/Tara/Luke/Townsend block (except the Irish Times building) and all of the triangle at Luke and Townsend. Also the triangle (apart from the pub) at Poolbeg, Tara and the Quays, but the large building there has already been demolished anyway.

strassenwo!f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119684596#Comment_119684596

None whatsoever, is the answer to your first question. There is no possibility that the Railway Order will not be granted.

The last time ABP were asked to look at a project or projects of this scale, way back around 2010, both projects on the table (Metronorth and the DART Underground) were waved through with what appeared to be minimal scrutiny, despite obvious discrepancies in the presentations given by IE and the RPA (the presenters of the respective projects at that time).

In retrospect, this was perhaps understandable, as ABP knew that there was no possibility of either of them being built, given the parlous state of the country's finances at the time, so why bother spending time on applications for them?

My main worry in the case of this line is that, at each point where there is a situation with a conflict between (i) possible disruption during construction and (ii) better long-term customer experience over the line's lifetime, the 'at all events mustn't cause disruption' doctrine will always win out in Dublin.

There are a few such places where such conflicts exist, and we've talked about them.

My guess is ABP will identify a places or two where there should be an extra exit to a station, or a place which needs an extra ventilation shaft. There will be a respectable period of silence during which the public will be able to imagine the members of ABP stroking their chins in deep scrutiny of the project.

And then it will be granted.

Rulmeq

Could anyone give us an idea of what a typical day in the planning office is like. Are they busy for 8 hours a day, or is this just lots of paper pushing, and waiting around for people to respond to letters and the likes? Could be we speed this stuff up if we hired more planners, or is this just how long it has to take?

Also, is it possible for more delays after permission is granted, like BS judicial reviews and such?