Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120241876#Comment_120241876

That the click bait hungry media try to use this as another reason to try tear down dublin metro. Its a store selling crap, it won't be missed. Pity they aren't interested in the issues caused by dublin not having a transport system...

cgcsb

A non story. There are many more properties to be demolished for this project including hundreds of homes and work places on Tara St, a carpet shop in Glasnevin, a pub etc. Smyths has no history in the area and is not a residence, its employees are high turn over and min waged, mostly young and part time. There is a massive labour shortage those employees can have their pick.

JohnnyChimpo

The next few years of this thread are really going to be dire with people uncritically re-posting NIMBY nonsense and occasionally crayoning in with their own suggestions.

salmocab

In fairness on the Smyth’s thing I would assume it’s just posturing to get as much out of whatever happens as possible. I’ve no problem with it, it will happen with everyone affected which is also what I’d do if I thought I could squeeze a bit of the state.

I hate the phrase nimby as it has lost its meaning over time, now any kind of objection even legitimate ones are now dismissed as nimby.

these things won’t and shouldn’t change the plans but people affected have a right to maximise what they get from it.

Murph85

Id love frank Mcdonald and all the other dooms men, to give their no brainer, no demolition, easy option to develop a massive scheme like this, with no inconvenience to anyone... they do have all the answers after all...

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244282#Comment_120244282

Are they the guys who sit at the bar in Doheny and Nesbitt public house in Baggot St?

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226016#Comment_120226016

a tram running in circles around SSG?

hahahaha

lawred2

I can kinda see it from Smyth's perspective. They do have a prime location in Airside and the store is massive. It's a very busy store. Not sure how easy they will find a replacement site with similar attributes.

The plan is the plan but I can imagine they must be a little perplexed as to why the acres of green fields directly to the back of the store weren't sufficient for whatever infrastructure was needed.

Either way, a metro incorporating the airport is of magnitudes greater in national importance than another Smyths. Strange that such an article even made multiple national news outlets.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242006#Comment_120242006

Who says it’s selling crap! That’s your opinion.

It’s selling toys and there is obviously demand for this “crap”.

bk

You know what I've always found odd about Airside is the amount of surprising duplication between stores. Both Woodies and B&Q there, almost next door, selling much the same stuff, but also Curry's, Harvey Normans, DID Electrical and Powercity close by all selling the exact same TV's, etc. And two golf stores!!

To be honest, the whole of Airside is such a waste of space. So much street level car parking. The car parks there is much larger then the stores there! With a Metro stop going in there, the owner of the site might want to completely redevelop it.

If they don't then that car park will likely end up a nice free park and ride for the Metro!

Probably make sense for the site owner to redevelop the entire site for it to face more towards the Metro station, maybe taller buildings if they can get planning permission, reorient the car park to the back of the site in a smaller multi storey car park, with parking control.

Even if Smyths wasn't been knocked, I'd be shocked if Airside didn't radically change with a Metro stop going in there. A golden development opportunity for the owner of the site.

Frankly if they could get the zoning for it, they would probably bulldoze all the stores and build apartment buildings there.

bk

Report here where they looked into other options for this station:

https://www.pleanala.ie/publicaccess/EIAR-NIS/314724/5_EIAR/Volume%205%20Appendices/Chapter%2007%20Consideration%20of%20Alternatives/A7.1%20Fosterstown%20Options%20Report.pdf

Here is the summary of why going North isn't a great option either:

"The more detailed MCA comparison indicated that Option 2A – avoiding the Airside building – although considered cost neutral compared to the Preliminary Design, had significant disadvantages compared to the proposed Preliminary Design option. It would have more extensive construction impacts, including additional utility diversion requirements; significant impact on the R132 traffic and other road users over an extended length of the R132 and with an approximate 5-year construction period; a poor urban integration of the station adjacent to the R132; and the introduction of a poor horizontal track alignment which would constrain the operational speed of trains in this area."

They also mention this:

"While the Smyth’s building has to be removed there could be potential for reconstruction of a replacement store in a similar location if land was made available and planning permissions gained. This may also offer the potential for development to a higher intensity, consistent with location in close proximity to a metro station (subject to compliance with Fingal County Council planning policy)"

Stepping back and looking at the Fostertown Masterplan that Fingal County Council have, the Airside loks very much out of place. It is basically right in the middle of two large residential developments. It really wouldn't make sense for it to remain as is. Ideally the site should be rezoned for high density residential IMO.

brianc89

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/02/16/frank-mcdonald-darttunnel-is-the-missing-link-in-dublins-transport-plans/

A few highlights for me 🙄:

It (Dart+ Tunnel) would also “maximise redevelopment opportunities within the M50″, including the largely redundant 50-hectare Dublin Industrial Estate at Broombridge.

Despite the proximity of Glasnevin Metro Station to Dublin Industrial Estate, and ignoring the Dart+ West plans to Maynooth, he touts Dart+ Tunnel as a better piece of infrastructure for DIE.

Their report recommended a 7.8km route, with five stations – at Heuston, High Street, St Stephen’s Green, Westland Row and Spencer Dock – at an cost of between €5 billion and €6 billion.

It believes this cost is a benefit versus Metro, despite a 30% higher cost per km and the addition of only one new station to the network, versus Metro which adds 13 new stations.

Murph85

Just came here to post a link to that article. The most shocking thing is, that tunnel would have cost minimum 5 times less in 2012 than now. It was a scandalous decision to axe it, for the pittance in the scheme of things, that it was going to cost. It would have kept thousands of construction workers in Ireland during the recession too...

Should the metro go out the skuthwest etc, yeah probably. Given those morons have squander billions with inflation, it will be a miracle pf Dublin metro is built as stands. What's their plan? Increase potential maximum worst case scenario figure, to 30,000,000,000 to bring it to knocklyon? Yeah I'm sure him and the lads in the Irish meeja would fully support that...

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247026#Comment_120247026

Write into the Irish times, his unchallenged nonsense needs to be addressed

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247026#Comment_120247026

Two things: its not just Dart Underground versus Metro: we may need both and the question is more one of timing

Secondly you day that Metro creates far more stations than Dart Underground. True, but vastly improving connectivity between existing stations and part of the network is of really vital. Also DU adds at least two stations one near Christchurch and one at Stephen's Green

:

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120247320#Comment_120247320

That's fair it would add two very important stations. However with Phoenix Park Tunnel, Dart W and Dart SW, commuters can switch to the Metro network at Glasnevin or continue to GCD or Spencer Dock.

The improved location of Spencer Dock together with a new bridge over the Liffey would bring people directly into the North and South Docklands which is a huge employment hub.

A Luas extension from James to College Green could also offer a new route through the city centre at a fraction of the cost. Given the huge reallocation of road space to PT in the city centre, a Luas to College Green is far more plausible now than it was even 5 years ago.

iffandonlyif

Quoting you know who.

Nearly 120 years ago, James Joyce diagnosed Dublin as “the centre of paralysis”, and that’s certainly true of rail transport planning in the city.

Groan.

It didn’t happen, of course, and instead we got the “Temple of Bars”.

Who had Temple Bar on their bingo card?

For politicians, Metrolink was more alluring and conjured up images of the Paris Metro … Also, the latter was an Iarnród Éireann project, whereas Metrolink is the NTA’s baby, ... Such bureaucratic compartmentalisation is the enemy of joined-up thinking on public transport.

Unkind to impugn those involved like this. Compared with HS2 in the UK, Irish politicians have been anonymous. As for compartmentalisation, the argument he’s now fixed himself on is the supposed absence of coherence/joined-up-thinking, etc; how then can he criticise giving responsibility to a national planning body rather than the rail lobby?

‘This sum is comparable with the total investment in the national motorway network to date, in nominal term’ … Metrolink simply won’t deliver anything like the transformative impact of the motorways

Really disingenuous to use nominal figures. Also, the motorway network was low-hanging fruit.

Gerry Duggan also agrees that terminating Metrolink at Charlemont is a mistake and says it should run instead from St Stephen’s Green via Rathmines, Terenure and Templeogue to Oldbawn, as the Metro South West Group has strongly advocated.

This has been my biggest bugbear all along, tbh. Ideally I’d like it to be renamed in my honour. As we all know, the intention was not to terminate it at Charlemount, but that was forced by local opposition. If I recall correctly, the upgrade of the Luas Green Line was projected to cost 3-5% of the total MetroLink project, given no tunnelling is required and the line is already in place. An alternative south-west routing with extensive tunnelling would literally double the cost. It is so utterly preposterous to say it was a ‘mistake’ not to double the size of the project. This and the motorway argument cause me to question the credibility of this Irish Cities 2070 working group.

bk

Err.. no, Metrolink is vastly more important than the DART Underground!

Don't get me wrong, ideally we should have both, but if you are asking which should have priority, there is no question that, it is Metrolink.

Metrolink will connect Swords, a commuter town of Dublin which will have a population of at least 50,000 and potential for a lot more to the city center. It is currently the second largest town in Ireland, but the only one without a rail connection.

Finglas Council are actually planning for it to grow to 100,000 by 2035. That would have it surpass Galway and close to or perhaps even ahead of Limerick depending on how you measure it! So 3rd or 4th most populated urban area in Ireland, basically a city in it's own right.

Never mind the airport and all the other stops along the way, they are just the cherry on top.

By comparison, the Dart Tunnel doesn't really do anything like that. The new stations in the DU would be a destination, rather then a traffic generator. They don't open up any new development land. Dart+ and the PPT will serve the same commuter towns that DU will serve. I honestly can't see anyone living in Hazelhatch or Maynooth saying they won't get the train to Dublin because their isn't a direct stop at Stephens Green!

Again don't get me wrong DU will need to be built some day and very welcome. But Metrolink and Dart+ are vastly more important then it.

Hotblack Desiato

"Temple of Bars" - Frank McDonald bullshit bingo. Has to get his personal hobby horse into every article.

I am certain that if the current plan was to build the interconnector instead, he'd be decrying it and singing the praises of Metro.

LXFlyer

They are both important as they would both facilitate rapid rail and high capacity movement across Dublin City Centre north/south and east/west thereby reducing pressure on the bus service.

DART+, while necessary, doesn’t do that - trains will trundle around the PPT and the loop line rather than offering a rapid route east/west under the city.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120240546#Comment_120240546

I assume you mean that it is pathetic that such a non-story would make the RTE news website.

It's a big-box retailer in a retail park. They'll move somewhere else. Nothing to see here.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120243265#Comment_120243265

This.

I wish this could be pinned to the top somehow. Everyone please re-read it every time you plan on posting a clickbait piece on the closure of a bookies or fish and chip shop to make way for essential rail infrastructure that any other city the size of Dublin would have built decades ago.

plodder

If we're to have either Metrolink or DART+ then Metrolink is more important. Maybe in a future ideal universe with both, and multiple additional Luas lines would you argue the academic point that DART+ is more important because it represents the central spine of the network. But it's fantasy to argue that way from this standpoint when we have nothing, and especially lobbying against the project most likely to proceed at this point is a perfect example of his "centre of paralysis" point.

Consonata

Frank McDonald has intellectual dishonesty to a fine art. He will be pro Dart Undergound until he realises building the thing will require digging up half of College Green, after which he will decry the whole program as "ruining the fabric of city centre Dublin".

He cares nought for actually improving the lives of people living in the city, more a city bereft of youth and an amber cast version of the City that he remembers of his youth.

It's grim that Irish Times continues to uncritically platform his rubbish but this is the publication that still uncritically publishes McDowell so what can you do.

Sam Russell

Mod: I think Frank McDonald should be relegated to another thread.

Mainly because the IR 'Interconnector' or 'Dart Underground' or whatever the mot du jour is for today is not between Swords or Charlemont.

The airport connection is important, but so are many of the other trip generators on the route. He misses that completely, as well as missing most stations in his little diagram, but interestingly, he includes the Congriffin to Airport Dart line - I wonder why.

[Edit: Maybe the Dart+ thread is the best place to ventilate his IT article - however, not here!]

iffandonlyif

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249998#Comment_120249998

That’s ridiculous! He’s writing in opposition to MetroLink, the explicit subject of this thread.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120249998#Comment_120249998

How about the Metro (south of Charlemont) thread - that thread is all hypothetical future stuff? The Dart+ project is very much alive and well, so be nice to keep to actual related news

Sam Russell

Mod: OK, go with Metrolink (south ...)

I take your point about Dart+ is actually about stuff that is happening, while his article is crayon wielding at its worst. His previous repost was about some other nonsense on Metrolink.

[Edit: Frank McD was complaining (23rd Jan IT) about how Metrolink would 'destroy' SSG, but of course that would only be temporary - I assume he never makes omelettes!]

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250192#Comment_120250192

Just to be clear, are we including or excluding the tunnel element in Dart+?

They may have renamed DU as Dart+ Tunnel, but it's absolutely not the same project as the near term Dart improvements...

Sam Russell

I think it makes little difference if you are clear.