Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

marno21

Lads Pete has a point here. There is no reason to believe metrolink is in danger atm. Procurement prep is ongoing in the background and the project is awaiting an oral hearing with ABP.

By all means if something comes out that puts the project in jeopardy by all means discuss it but “just because it hasn’t been built before it won’t be built” isn’t really a worthwhile discussion imo.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828510#Comment_120828510

Yes. Mods, please stop this distracting nonsense about it being in danger. There is absolutely no reason to think this right now.

The government is forecasting 10s of Billions of national surplus. It's extremely likely to progress.

loyatemu

the main danger is from the next election IMO. That's 18 months away so it should be through planning but will there be boots on the ground?

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828300#Comment_120828300

A ban for correctly raising cultural and political issues that have resulted in where we are now and these mentalities are still part and parcel of the Irish establishment and body politic. A ban? I think that is very unfair to people raising actual legitimate facts concerning the two-decade-long fiasco we have so far endured.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829206#Comment_120829206

There is a difference between defining "on and off topic items" and "banning free speech". This is an infrastructure thread, not a thread about the social and political issues of Ireland.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829206#Comment_120829206

As clearly stated in my post which you quoted, I advocated a ban if the only contribution on offer is equivalent to "it'll never happen". That isn't discussing issues and is just fishing for a reaction and inevitably drags the thread down a route which requires a Mod intervention. That results in thread bans in many forums.

I said another thread can be set up for those who want to discuss cultural and political issues or talk about their own pet project and why it should happen instead. This thread is about a specific project which is progressing through the phases which need to be completed before construction can commence (and even pushing ahead with procurement of certain aspects in the meantime) so talk of it not going ahead clearly isn't relevant.

And you are the one who posted "The Luas to the Airport 'cheaper option' is now officially out there" so unless you have a link from the government or one of it's agencies which states that there is an official Luas to the Airport plan your point about "raising actual legitimate facts" is extremely questionable.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829178#Comment_120829178

Don't even think there's a danger there, to be honest. We're staring down the barrel of massive fines, the government can be sued over their climate action plan (and already has been successfully sued once already), and every party has committed to tackling climate change.

This will definitely happen. Extremely confident about it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829747#Comment_120829747

Sinn Fein haven't committed to tackling climate change.

From public transport projects to carbon tax to agricultural emissions to excise duty on fuels, Sinn Fein has played fast and loose with climate change.

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120827924#Comment_120827924

I think it has been well established at this stage of the discussion that Metrolink is about much more than just bringing a rail connection from the airport to the city centre.

Its major benefit is that it connects large swathes of built up areas that are currently poorly served by public transport to the city centre, especially Swords. It will open up the entirety of North County Dublin to the use of reliable public transport through the presence of a large park and ride facility on the outskirts of Swords, preventing the need for people to commute into the city using their cars. This will have a significant positive knock on impact on the reliability of the bus network. Currently it takes well over an hour for a bus to travel from Swords to the city centre during peak times. The 41C can take well over 90 minutes. It should never be the case that driving into the city centre is quicker than getting the bus as is the case now.

The rail link from Heuston to the Docklands will be nice to have when we eventually get it, but there is a reason the NTA and Government is prioritising Metrolink. The fact of the matter is that there are already numerous public transport options available to get from Heuston to various locations in the city centre, including the Luas.

Let's not try and gloss over the actual benefits of Metrolink when discussing the pros and cons of it. It is about much more than a rail link to the airport. In anycase, the project appears to be powering ahead regardless. The debate over whether it will happen seems a bit pointless.

AngryLips

We've learned nothing from the Metro North fiasco if there's folk going round saying that there's zero risk of Metrolink not getting completed. Let's not forget, we still haven't made up loss ground on Metrolink versus where we were when Metro North got canned.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829178#Comment_120829178

We've far more to fear in the country than just Metrolink being canned if the current opinion polls are anything to go by.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829178#Comment_120829178

It could be through ABP but will more than likely be subject to a JR or multiple consecutive JR’s (is that even possible?)

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830029#Comment_120830029

that's a conversation for the Politics forum (if you can bear to go there) but I think they would definitely cancel ML if it suited their aims; there's no great political capital for them in it, it's a FFG project through and through. It would be more difficult to can if work had started but that seems optimistic at this remove.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829747#Comment_120829747

Jesus I hope this post doesn’t come back to bite you.

I really hope this is built but I am far from confident in this planning process and the motivation of certain groups to go all the way to the EU courts to see this dead in the water.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829814#Comment_120829814

This is simply false. The current Metrolink project is far more progressed. They've started advance planning and have tendered multiple elements of required advanced works.

MJohnston

A meta-comment about politics:

If a political party hasn't promised to cancel Metrolink in their manifestos, and didn't promise it even slightly in the relatively recent general election, then I don't understand the leap of logic to think that they will somehow do it if they get elected, which would be absolutely the least politically advantageous time to do it.

What would that gain them?

Is there some misguided notion that Sinn Fein don't care about votes in the capital?

prunudo

Whats a meta-comment? Is that a new buzz word?

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830133#Comment_120830133

Nonsense fear mongering about what might happen if you don't vote right.

Its not just Dublin voters who want Metrolink to get built - it will be a massive boost to anyone who has to visit the capital too.

Not to mention if we cannot build a metro in the largest city in the country, there isnt a hope of any infrastructure being delivered outside the capital either.

Is there any evidence to back up the notion that ML is in danger? Opinion polls? TD statements about their future intent? Manifestos etc?

Even a severe recession will not see it canned as lessons have been learned from last time that cutting crucial infrastructure spending and fiscal austerity in times of already high unemployment is not a good approach.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830234#Comment_120830234

My comment ended up not really being meta at all. I was originally going for a hypothetical, non-specific example and ended up not doing that 😅

Meta-commentary tends to mean something that references the commentary on a topic, rather than the topic itself.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830238#Comment_120830238

I think you could probably locate a few political voices who are against Metrolink in its entirety, probably your Healy-Rae types.

And you can probably find a few voices who take the "I support Metrolink but it would be better if..." approach, which is opaque in terms of their actual support.

And then there's Sinn Fein who have publicly said "We support Metrolink, but we don't trust FFG to not let the costs overrun" as well as "We support Metrolink, and we think similar amounts should be spent on infrastructure in the west of the country". Neither of those statements seem in any way like they're not wanting ML to be built.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830093#Comment_120830093

The fact is that MN had a railway order and ML does not.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831026#Comment_120831026

And Metro Link has advanced planning and tendering ongoing, far ahead of Metro North. Metro Link will get it's Railway Order and works will be ready to hit the ground.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830686#Comment_120830686

A SF/rural independents hook-up would cause real fear for the future of Metrolink.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831299#Comment_120831299

Indeed.

Prioritise the funds for social welfare recipients and roads down the west.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831299#Comment_120831299

Without getting into the politics of it all, that doesn't seem compatible to me. FFG have been in an ersatz coalition with the rural independents for years, and that fits more in my mind.

Anyway, if there's a SF government, that means that there's probably enough SD, Lab, and Green TDs around to not need the rurals.

Sam Russell

Mod: I have tried to keep this thread on topic but appear to have failed. I am tempted to just delete all the off topic posts, but that smacks of censorship.

Look, if you want to diss Metrolink, start a new thread, while think of hitting delete.

citizen6

Can anyone explain to me how we got from a cost of 2-3 billion up to 9.5 billion?

And will it still pass public spending code/cost benefit analysis at 9.5?

I think the biggest threat to the project is uncertainty around the cost. And the lazy politics of how many schools/hospitals could be built for the same money.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120872625#Comment_120872625

If the €2 - 3bn is from the old Metro North that was never realistic and it would have actually cost far more had it proceeded. The Metrolink estimate is obviously far more robust. It is prepared at a time of higher costs generally plus labour shortages, and also factors in lots of inflation for a decade ahead. If anything, I'd say Metrolink is over-estimated but we need to see how things play out. Tendering it will cost peanuts at this stage so the final decision will be made on actual costs.

The Business Case should be fine, every year its not built costs Dublin (and by extension, the country) a fortune in lost productivity and adds to labour issues as people can't access jobs in other areas as freely as they should. Metrolink will also help with the housing shortage and we have climate targets to achieve which we are currently failing to do. There is a large sunk cost already so not proceeding burns that and money doesn't necessarily become available for schools/hospitals instead. Not building Metrolink will cost far more than building it.

Sam Russell

We have the money to build it - surplus in the coffers now.

Unfortunately speculation about huge costs allows those bidding to build it to put in hope value into the submission. Not a clever strategy for Irish interests.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120874208#Comment_120874208

Lack of adequate public transport and adequate housing is costing the state and the economy more than that every year in lost foreign investment. We lost brexit exodous business hand over fist to Amsterdam, Luxembourg and even Portugal for exactly that reason. Small countries have to remain competitive in a globalised world.