Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Idbatterim

I agree. If its 15 billion, it isn't that expensive. But if economic tides turn, that fifteen billion etc, will be made out to be all 0f King midas silver by the media etc... ,could be spent on welfare or health or whatever other Blackhole here, dwarfs that fifteen billion on a YEARLY basis...

bk

I get why many of us Irish people dislike the idea of interconnection, given the poor experience we have had with it and mostly buses in Ireland.

But I feel it is something that we need to get over. If done well, it can be almost seamless and lead to an overall better network and service then trying to squeeze different service onto the same track, which usually leads to complexity and a reduction in frequency, speeds and capacity.

Keep in mind, if this was to happen, we would be talking about a Metrolink every 90 seconds meeting a Luas potentially every 3 minutes!

And given the location, ideally they should be able to put the Luas directly next to the Metrolink platforms [1] for cross platform connections. Imagine stepping off a Metrolink train and walking a few meters to a waiting Luas train that leaves shortly after. Hardly a big deal.

[1] Yes you would need to ramp up the low floor Luas to match the height of a high floor Metro, but relatively easy to do and worth it at this location IMO.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121360532#Comment_121360532

It's gonna be 9 billion, not sure where you got 15 billion from.

Idbatterim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121364387#Comment_121364387

We don't know what it will cost... doubt it will be nine billion, frankly I couldn't give a toss what it costs within reason.... twenty five billion is still less than a years second world health system here...

Uproar over a pittance on the tubridy scandal, hundreds of millions now being cut in rte.

Billions of euro squandered on delaying infrastructure projects, nobody cares... funny country... If Leo varadkar had stolen fifty euro from the dail kitty, he'd probably have to resign. But who gives a toss about five billion euro... and that likely is the minimum cost, of delaying du and dublin metro...

Idbatterim

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/11/14/transport-projects-face-delays-if-huge-hole-in-budgets-not-filled-nta/

Transport projects face delays if ‘huge hole’ in budgets not filled - NTA – The Irish Times

here we go, predictable as anything, this is the start of it... absolute genius move from varadkar and co... go with a cheaper option, that is actually a multiple of the original scheme... Genius!

prunudo

For whatever reason the media want to kill metro. But lets not get bogged down in headlines. Interest rates are currently high, but this project won't need major funding for another couple years minimum. As long as the funding is kept for the design teams to contuine and for it to progress through Abp, then I don't see any reason to panic yet.

And if they do panic, and pull the plug, well, we will never progress as a country and may just stop the multi nationals coming here.

road_high

Sadly our political class are only interested in short termism- mainly involving virtue signalling to their string pullers in NGOs and global bodies like the UN etc. You never hear those lot calling for metros or anything that might benefit ordinary Irish taxpayers and commuters. Hence the lack of any real commitment to building them

Idbatterim

The only thing that will get public transport, particularly rail built here, is the EU fining us for our emissions breaches and total failure on infrastructure, I wish they would. If they fined us hundreds of millions a year and it actually started meaningful construction, we would actually be making a saving, versus the outrageous figures that inflation are adding to projects every year...

road_high

It’s a sad state of affairs. Realistically I don’t share the optimism of those in this thread who think it’ll be built. First sign of economic jitters and this will be the first thing in the bin- rinse and repeat- best indicator of future behaviours is always past ones in my experience

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369043#Comment_121369043

On this topic, last I saw, we're looking at approx 750 million by 2030 in fines a year,, rising rapidly over 1 billion after that

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121368974#Comment_121368974

I have to say all-in-all Anne Graham has defended her position very well here indeed. You can actually sense the woman's frustration from dealing with the psychopathic mediocre virtue signalling knucklescrapers in Irish politics and the civil service.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121368974#Comment_121368974

Head of agency asking for more money shocker.

Also what "cheaper option"?

Idbatterim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369210#Comment_121369210

They need a reason to beat any project they decide to ditch. When MN was ditched wasn't it justified with it was ovespecced etc? So what's the genius alternative? Back to the drawing board and let inflation double at minimum the cost of this new " better' project.... ?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369325#Comment_121369325

MN was ditched because we were physically incapable of funding the building of it.

It was also not a great plan but that wasn't why it was ditched. It was why they didn't just dust off those plans again.

prunudo

Opening to correction but even though MN had planning, I believe Metrolink is far more progressed with regards to design, ground investigations, procurement procedures and other proprietary works.

Idbatterim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369339#Comment_121369339

"Physically incapable". They had no problem borrowing tens of billions for stuff they deemed worthy... ddn't leave us with much of a legacy...

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121369531#Comment_121369531

Yes, they had no problem borrowing money at exorbitant rates to basically keep the lights on. We had no real access to debt markets and it would not have been signed off on by the Troika. It was not viable.

Idbatterim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370143#Comment_121370143

and the excuses for doing nothing since the recovery began, around a decade ago? the excuse is probably, its only a decade, temper your expectations...

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370151#Comment_121370151

They haven't done nothing, the new line has been in planning and development for a significant portion of time and a significant amount of preparatory work has been undertaken already. Planning Permission was expired on the original MN at that point, and even if they just used the plan again, with the changes in the NDP relating to Dart Underground there is a good chance it would not have received planning permission again. The Business Case for it would have been a lot worse.

Why didn't it go faster? A number of reasons, some of which relate back to under-resourcing in bodies such as ABP and TFI which is partly a legacy of the recession (and partly just poor governance). Also the high level of public consultation to try and avoid JRs and other legal tomfoolery.

Idbatterim

I agree with a lot of what you say Podge, the timelines here are beyond a joke... Where are we left, when metrolink is scrapped? if metrolink is "optimal" on all but cost grounds, there is no point in wasting another decade , going for a "cheaper metro" because underground lines are obviously pricy to build, period! then factor in inflation, making the new cheaper scheme, far more expensive. Thats all proven. So what is dublin airport and swords left with as a cheap option, if metrolink is shelved? Luas or an inconvenient dart. Or they build metrolink at huge cost, as that is the cost for their inaction and the irish taxpayer is paying massively for it...

Podge_irl

But there are no actual signs of ML being shelved or a "cheaper option" being looked at.

I get the skepticism but there is genuinely no sign of anything but this moving forward, albeit too slowly. And the speed is mostly not a direct choice of government but a side effect of previous underfunding in areas. ABP staffing is being fixed as one example, but alas too late to do much about the railway order for metrolink.

Idbatterim

there is talk about the understaffing of ABP, and it obviously is. But the planning system doesnt seem at all fit for purpose, critical infrastructure schemes, there should be way less bureaucracy and messing around with them in my opinion. What way to they do this in Spain etc, where they actually have experience and deliver quickly and efficiently?

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370282#Comment_121370282

The biggest thing most other countries have is a legal system that is not based on common law. It's not just the planning system, it's the entire legal system as well.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121368974#Comment_121368974

The only thing predictable here is someone posting an article with nothing to do with Metrolink and spewing misery. NTA are not funding Metrolink, it is a TII project and they will have built in inflation in their cost models. It is clear that significant work is progressing while we wait for planning approval. This harking back to MetroNorth has to stop, it was a vastly inferior project anyway.

MetroLinker

Link: https://www.tii.ie/careers/vacancies-2023/TII_MetroLink_Programme-Director-Information_Booklet.pdf

On the link above for the Metrolink Programme Director, they give a current programme for the works (this may have been published already here but I couldn't see it):

So it looks like another year for the Railway Order notification though they could probably just pass it on directly to the High Court to begin the inevitable judicial review process.

cgcsb

Shocking that a railway order can take over 2 years to get through abp. We need emergency legislation that automatically grants all sustainable infrastructure and high density housing schemes currently with abp for the next few years.

In the meantime demolish the current planning system and build a new one bases on international best practice.

It's unfortunate but that's what needs to happen, we're never going to catch up to the developed world standard of infrastructure if the developed world continues to advance and we're pissing about with 2 year planning permissions for critical projects.

Only last week we seen how how Eirgrid has to pay farmers in the Republic €50k to place pilons on land and the same project proposes to pay farmers in Northern Ireland only €5k. And it was the farmers in the south that were on the news saying they're going to go to prison to stop it 😒

We also seen residential property developers saying they're going to think twice about future projects in Ireland because of 2 or 3 year legal battles.

Quite clearly our system encourages and supports petulance and entitlement.

Zebra3

And don’t mention the current situation of a criminal investigation in to objections for go away money.

MetroLinker

I've commented previously on the whole CPO process in Ireland needing an overhaul, which would possibly help these matters. I think the other danger for these lengthy projects is that the Environmental Impact Assessment can become a stick to beat them with when the regulations change at a European level.

Let's face the reality though, every aspect of this project from planning through to operation is going to need to withstand a lot of scrutiny. I'm sure a sizeable war chest is in place for the judicial review process. This type of project can't back down from a judicial review so the other side taking the case is in a slightly weaker position where a time/economic bullying approach doesn't work.

Possibly that new section of the High Court (https://www.courts.ie/content/commercial-planning-and-environmental-list) will be in place in time for this project.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370615#Comment_121370615

Stop 'spewing misery' accept everything is lollipops and sunshine and we are getting the Metro no matter what.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121370166#Comment_121370166

Metrolink won't be scrapped. There is no current indication that it will be scrapped. Beyond a massive economic crisis hitting the country, similar to 08, Metrolink will be built. Will it be built on time? Thats a different question and more up for debate. But the current time lines seem conservative and I trust the TII to hit their timelines and funding targets more than any other sector to be honest. Let us not forget that BXD was built Under budget.

Mindless cynicisim not borne out by any evidence of how the process has carried out up to now is useless talk.