Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121862864#Comment_121862864

My understanding was that the green space you're referring to was what would be taken during construction.

In fairness to them, they are really only asking for TII to see if they could find any plan that would allow some green space to be retained nearby, so that the residents aren't left with nothing during construction.

@prundo Duncan Stewart has become something of an extremist as he has aged, and is now a fine example of the kind of Hard Green who does the Green movement more damage than service.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121863138#Comment_121863138

Area in purple is what is being taken as part of the project. Area in Blue is still available, or at least has not been indicated for acquisition from what I can see in the property documents.

Whilst unideal for Estuary court, there are clear issues with permeability between the two estates that could be resolved and should be resolved regardless of whether this project goes ahead or not. There is not a lack of green space in the area. There is a lack of access to green space unfortunately due to insane development decisions when these cul de sacs were built.

bk

There is an obvious garden there that you could buy/CPO to build a path to connect to the green areas behind the estate.

CatInABox

TII put up a list of their speakers so far with "end of module 1 7th March", so I think it's safe to assume that it's going according to the schedule.

They're doing the same thing as last time, heading from North to South along the route.

Still kinda intrigued by the fact that nothing about the trinity problem came out. Not even a response to it by TII or anything, and they've seemingly uploaded docs on basically everything that was mentioned so far.

walshb

Gas. Everyone who has objections agrees with the project, but not at their doors..Estuary and Fingallians latest objections.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864022#Comment_121864022

Not true both michael mcdowell and frank mcdonald objected to the entire project

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121863253#Comment_121863253

The residents probably only have themselves to blame on the problem with permeability. Often the biggest obstacle to permeability is that existing estates to want to facilitate through-routes into new adjacent estates.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864061#Comment_121864061

Yes. I am aware there are some who think the whole project does not need to happen. I was more meaning those who have objections in their “areas,” yet saying they agree with it

tobefrank321

Based on the National Children's Hospital fiasco, whatever the estimated cost and timeline for this project can be at least doubled.

Estimates need to be realistic and most importantly stress tested before sign off.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864121#Comment_121864121

The difference is that TII have a proven track record in delivering projects on time and on budget.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864121#Comment_121864121

The HSE are not building the Metro. Big difference there...

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121863138#Comment_121863138

Yes, I think people are a little bit overly protective/defensive of the Metrolink project, understandably so in my opinion, there's so much need for this project that I think a lot of people on here view anything that could be construed as a negative as a sort of attack on the entire project, when much of it is just the average person looking out for their own.

I do have sympathy for a lot of these folk, losing access to a large green area for the length of the project is extremely annoying from their point of view, but from my perspective, I would happily suffer through for the sake of a revolution in PT in Dublin. I would perhaps try and ask could anything be done, as official Ireland sometimes has a "Computer Say No" approach to this stuff.

The only ones that truly annoy me are people that question the entire need for the project, that belittle what Ireland can do (we can't do big projects here in Ireland, etc), that think the experts are completely wrong and the back of the cigarette packet drawing I did is the only way to do it, etc.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864121#Comment_121864121

Can you expand on the 'based on' part?

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121863099#Comment_121863099

The issue here is that there is no debate. People are brought on to spout whatever ill informed view they have.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121854672#Comment_121854672

They've switched the Luas trams to run in the opposite direction and all, impressive.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121860777#Comment_121860777

The National Childrens' Hospital at the Mater was not ready to go though, it didn't have planning and never did get planning.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121864133#Comment_121864133

How many projects of this scale have TII worked on? And by this scale I mean a 10 mile tunnel under Dublin city?

tobefrank321

I stand corrected. Its already multiplied by 3 in estimates since 2018, from 3 billion to 9.5 billion, and that's the "median scenario". Safe to add another 3 billion at least to that.

MetroLink on track to be one of the most expensive underground rail projects in the world (thejournal.ie)

Anyone who thinks this can be delivered for under 10 billion is delusional. I would not be surprised to see the final figure as 15 billion, but we'll only discover that when we're half way through.

Hibernicis

The National Childrens' Hospital at the Mater was not ready to go though, it didn't have planning and never did get planning.

It was ready to go to planning.

My point was that it it was proceeding nicely, then an election took place and it was back to the drawing board, setting the whole project back years. The exact same thing could happen to the Metro, irrespective of whether it is at pre or post planning stage.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865922#Comment_121865922

Dublin Port Tunnel is very similar, two 4.5km tunnels at 12m diameter, for a total length of 9km. Versus a single 9m diameter, 9.5km tunnel for Metrolink.

The port tunnel actually displaced far more earth than Metrolink will given the wider diameter of the tunnel bores. Of course Metrolink has the added complexity of building stations, but it really isn’t as different from the port tunnel as people might imagine.

Also building the entire intercity motorway network in just a decade was a spectacular achievement. All together that was over 10 billion worth of motorway built.

TII have a pretty fantastic record of delivering the biggest projects in the state on time and on budget.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121865962#Comment_121865962

That is all meaningless, those are just various estimates, we won’t know the actual cost until contracts are signed.

Unfortunately the cost of major capital projects has absolutely exploded around the world over the last few years as in double or tripling in just a few years.

But it doesn’t really matter, Metrolink is far too important to fixing our public transport needs. Every year we delay it will just get more expensive, the sooner we get started the better. Once it is built, the cost will be quickly forgotten, remember there are London Underground lines in use today that opened 150 years ago! 150 years from now Metrolink line will still be in use.

tobefrank321

The latest estimate is 9.5 billion, but that's based on recently completed projects.

It doesn't take into account inflation in the future, particularly construction cost inflation, which is probably average 5% a year.

Costs are meaningless? Good one. The current estimate of 9.5 billion is based on recently completed projects in other countries. It doesn't take account of inflation.

There's no realism on costs.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866144#Comment_121866144

It actually quite literally does do that, hence why we don't have a fixed cost but rather a range of values. They modelled the medium 9.5bn figure based on projected inflation by IGEES and ESRI.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866108#Comment_121866108

I knew someone would cite the Dublin port tunnel and its an incredibly bad comparison. The Metro North will involve the building of multiple underground stations which will be extremely costly. This is nothing like the Dublin Port Tunnel.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866144#Comment_121866144

So what? It will be what it will be?

I believe the estimate takes into account cost inflation etc. But again these are just estimates for the CBA etc. The actual cost will be locked in when they sign the contracts with the developers who build it.

Again, we spent over 10 billion on the intercity motorway network back in the 2000's, so this is nothing new.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866149#Comment_121866149

I did mention the stations. It really is very similar, major TBM's digging under the city is nothing new for us. The stations do add complexity in terms of managing the transport of debris, but again it isn't anything new for such construction projects.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866149#Comment_121866149

Whether the two tunnels are similar or very different is irrelevant. The point is that it is a very large infrastructure project and this is what TII manage and have managed very successfully in the past. And should do in the future.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866149#Comment_121866149

Being a TBM bored tunnel it's far closer to the Port Tunnel than it is to the NCH.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866147#Comment_121866147

So they are estimating 9.5 billion after inflation?

Yet based on the study I shared, if recent UK costs for building similar undergrounds were considered, it would be over 9 billion before inflation?

So they think they can build it much cheaper than they did in the UK? Even though we have no experience of building similar here and they have 150 years experience!

Good luck to them if so. Can't see that happening myself.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866203#Comment_121866203

Given it is single bore and a much simpler design compared to recent UK ones, that we would be at the lower end of anglo countries is to be expected. As bk has said, it's not going to mean much till we get contracts signed on paper, however we likely will get a pretty decent competition for the contract.

I don't think theres any reason not to have faith that TII will be delivering this relatively cost effectively, given they are currently managing several other projects, cumultaively well over the sticker price for this one, and have delivered them on time and on budget (or as was the case with BXD, delivered early and under budget).

Pointless nihilism not backed by evidence gets us nowhere.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866203#Comment_121866203

The UKs 150 years of rail tunnelling was mostly done by Irish labour and latterly Irish tunnelling firms. North West Donegal origin staff in particular.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121866190#Comment_121866190

I keep hearing this is what the TII do. They have never done anything like this. Nothing. The port tunnel is a completely different project. For a start the Metro involves the dispersal of debris from multiple passenger stations, many of them in the city centre.

And saying we can do it cheaper than the UK is a bad start.