Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

CatInABox

salmocab wrote: »

I don’t think anyone would do much as transport minister, our system allows too much tinkering and agendas to be pushed through within government. Everyone is out for their own lot and couldn’t give a fig about commuters/victims of crime or the sick so long as they get votes from their constituents.

I'd prefer a minister that had some interest in their brief, and some belief that Public Transport serves a purpose. Don't know if Murphy is that man, but we've ample proof that Ross is the near total opposite.

Zebra3

CatInABox wrote: »

Murphy is the minister for Local Government, so he'd be the guy that has to deal with councils and such. You're right though, he's actually not bad, it's a bit of a poisoned chalice being the housing minister during a crisis that requires years to solve.

It’s not really a poisoned chalice.

FG have no interest in solving the situation. They are happy with the status quo.

CatInABox

Zebra3 wrote: »

It’s not really a poisoned chalice.

FG have no interest in solving the situation. They are happy with the status quo.

I disagree, but it's extremely off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

Sam Russell

CatInABox wrote: »

I disagree, but it's extremely off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

Mod: Exactly. Last time I looked, Knocklyon was not somewhere between Swords and Charlemont. And various council's attitude to planning for future Luas or Metro lines is also off topic.

Also, crayon work should be restricted to the appropriate crayon thread. There are a few of them.

Thank you.

Nidgeweasel

Can someone summarize why it takes so long to go through planning? 2021 seems ludicrous.

specialbyte

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Can someone summarize why it takes so long to go through planning? 2021 seems ludicrous.

First they need to finalise the design and route. They need to produce what is called a reference design first.

At the same time they are compiling everything they need to for an Environmental Impact Assessment Report (EIAR), which is required by EU law. EIARs are huge. For the Galway Outer Ring Road it was 10,000s of pages considering the potential construction and operational impacts over 30+ separate environmental criteria.

It will cover things like noise, vibration, impact on air quality, impact of heritage areas, impact on human health, impact on water quality, bats, birds, badgers etc.. It must include how it will be capable of responding in the event of a major disaster. EIAR reports are no joke. Behind each chapter of the report will be hundreds of hours of monitoring, investigation and compilation.

It's a long process because the public at large is risk-adverse. We want to know what are the likelihood of all potential impacts before anyone starts digging. This project is huge. For example, even the multi-storey car park and new entrance road at the P&R north of Swords would normally require an EIAR. That's only one small aspect of the overall plan.

It's not a sexy process but it's necessary (though maybe a little OTT).

It will also likely take ABP a year for them to read the report, study it, analyse each section, compare each section against relevant local, national and EU policy and law. That process is also a long slog and I don't envy the staff in ABP when this lands on their desk.

CatInABox

specialbyte wrote: »

It will also likely take ABP a year for them to read the report, study it, analyse each section, compare each section against relevant local, national and EU policy and law. That process is also a long slog and I don't envy the staff in ABP when this lands on their desk.

ABP, who are already stretched, at least in Dublin anyway. Presumably, there isn't a load of staff on hand who know loads about metros either.

LeinsterDub

CatInABox wrote: »

ABP, who are already stretched, at least in Dublin anyway. Presumably, there isn't a load of staff on hand who know loads about metros either.

Surely there's a couple of lads in there who've planned 10 of them at this stage

cgcsb

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Can someone summarize why it takes so long to go through planning? 2021 seems ludicrous.

Election cycles

D.L.R.

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Can someone summarize why it takes so long to go through planning? 2021 seems ludicrous.

One word: Ireland

The state simply doesn't have the expertise or experience to do it any faster. Not only in terms of construction, but in terms of supply chains, mitigating disruption, political buy in, financing, addressing local concerns, etc. Minor issues like a single swimming pool or a local side road can derail a whole project as we've seen.

To put it bluntly, Ireland is a rank amateur at this sort of thing.

That said, Metrolink is more achievable than Metro North or DU ever were.

Kellyconor1982

Exactly and that is why it is essential this gets built.

Once we get metro 1 built, i have no doubt more lines will follow and there is less anxiety around the dart underground.

The nimbys are highly vocal but the silent majority will become a more vocal majority when they see the success of this project and want a piece of the cake for their own area.

cgcsb

The Irish state is regressing in it's ability to deliver infrastructure. The DART expansion plan will be delivered at a much slower rate than the original DART was in 1984.

jd

Some indirect positive noises from the mandarins


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/new-spending-rules-promised-after-broadband-and-hospital-sagas-1.4017552

One of the State’s most senior civil servants has promised a “new approach” to spending on major capital projects in the wake of the children’s hospital and broadband controversies.
Robert Watt, the secretary general of the Department of Public Expenditure, acknowledged the State had a problem delivering “bespoke” or once-off projects that cost more than €1 billion

Urban transport

In his speech to the conference, Mr Watt also said the Government should prioritise spending on urban transport systems over the regional road or rail networks. He said “the biggest transport challenges” facing the State were in cities.
“The cost-benefit analysis of significant investment in rail – and I’ll get shot for saying this – is challenging,” he said. “Much better to invest in urban transport where there is congestion around the major cities.”

CatInABox

jd wrote: »

Some indirect positive noises from the mandarins


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/new-spending-rules-promised-after-broadband-and-hospital-sagas-1.4017552

Watt has come across as pretty smart in anything I've read that he's been mentioned in. I get the feeling that he didn't necessarily want all the attention brought on by his report on the National Broadband Plan in the first place, but he seems to be sticking to his guns on it, and making the most of his newfound "fame". Would the Irish Times have run a report on the new spending rules if he'd never made the front page? I don't think so, or at least it wouldn't have made headline news in the business section, it'd warrant a paragraph in a different story.

road_high

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

Can someone summarize why it takes so long to go through planning? 2021 seems ludicrous.

We’ll be another crisis by then and they’ll have to scrap it all once again

Idbatterim

Because even the dog on the street needs to give their opinion. I saw an article the other day that said the green line passenger numbers were up twenty five percent last year ! The only thing that will get this built is total carnage on that line, with the huge amount of apartments being built along its length , it can’t come soon enough !

Peregrine

The only thing worse than the people wheeled out by the media with a sob story about losing 2 metres of their 20 metre long gardens are the people who support it but spend all their time saying it won't happen. Demand it, don't just moan about how it won't happen. Otherwise, you're part of the problem.

lawred2

cgcsb wrote: »

The Irish state is regressing in it's ability to deliver infrastructure. The DART expansion plan will be delivered at a much slower rate than the original DART was in 1984.

The DART should have been the beginning of a metro not connected to IR.

The government of the time should not ever be forgiven to delivering such a pig in a poke which had no room ever for expansion or serving areas other than those around preexisting rail lines.

lawred2

jd wrote: »

Some indirect positive noises from the mandarins


https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/new-spending-rules-promised-after-broadband-and-hospital-sagas-1.4017552

How pathetic is it that a professional fears critique for saying capital infrastructure investment should be concentrated where the people are!

road_high

lawred2 wrote: »

The DART should have been the beginning of a metro not connected to IR.

The government of the time should not ever be forgiven to delivering such a pig in a poke which had no room ever for expansion or serving areas other than those around preexisting rail lines.

The DART is good but only a small piece of what should be a big puzzle of interconnected links. Our inability to get a metro underway really bugs me when the likes of Sofia can do it in a few years.

D.L.R.

lawred2 wrote: »

The DART should have been the beginning of a metro not connected to IR.

The Dart wasn't even the beginning of a Dart network..

Kellyconor1982

road_high wrote: »

The DART is good but only a small piece of what should be a big puzzle of interconnected links. Our inability to get a metro underway really bugs me when the likes of Sofia can do it in a few years.

Absolutely agree but the old communist countries promoted good transport for it's populations and it is in their psyche. We were a predominamtly rural society until recently and there is still an anti-urban (dublin) spending bias. I can part understand it as human nature is to protect your own interests and there is a lot of valid points made by those in rural communities.

The irony is that a three or four line Dublin metro system and a Dart Underground/Extension would benefit massively commuters coming from not just Dublin and surrounding counties, but also Louth, Wexford, Carlow, Offaly, Longford and Westmeath.

CatInABox

Griffith Avenue District and Residents Association have stepped up their game. They've hired solicitors, and are requesting the NTA go back to the drawing board, as they feel that the Public Consultation hasn't taken due consideration of the Habitat Directive and so on.

See their slightly weird website here. They're also going after BusConnects as well.

Last Stop

As I said on the Busconnects thread, they haven’t got a leg to stand on.
They are looking for detailed design when the project is at an initial stage.
They are also looking for special treatment and throw in token mentions of the general public.
The shaft was included in the public consultation so i can’t see how they missed it. If they did miss it well that’s their problem.
The optioneering for the Swords- city centre corridor was done as part of the original metro north scheme in the early 2000s so one of the few benefits of the consistent reincarnation of this project is that their has been ample public consultation.
I seriously struggle to see what they have to gain out of this except making themselves feel important. They have suggested any alternatives which would please them so I don’t know what they want TII to do

Dats me

CatInABox wrote: »

Griffith Avenue District and Residents Association have stepped up their game. They've hired solicitors, and are requesting the NTA go back to the drawing board, as they feel that the Public Consultation hasn't taken due consideration of the Habitat Directive and so on.

See their slightly weird website here. They're also going after BusConnects as well.

God and we wonder why Dublin is stuck in the dark ages. I wonder will "GADRA" be up for the €16 million contract the NTA tendered for there for legal services for MetroLink?

CatInABox

Dats me wrote: »

God and we wonder why Dublin is stuck in the dark ages. I wonder will "GADRA" be up for the €16 million contract the NTA tendered for there for legal services for MetroLink?

Yes, between this group and the Charlemont/Dartmouth Square folk trying similiar, I have a feeling that the lawyers for the NTA will be earning the money.

murphaph

I just duck in and out of this thread and every time I do I regret it.

CatInABox

Only related to metrolink tangentially, but Glasnevin Junction/Whitworth Station just got a whole load more popular with hipsters and those fond of the Bernard Shaw. The whole kit and caboodle is being moved into the Porterhouse Whitworth building.

MJohnston

CatInABox wrote: »

Only related to metrolink tangentially, but Glasnevin Junction/Whitworth Station just got a whole load more popular with hipsters and those fond of the Bernard Shaw. The whole kit and caboodle is being moved into the Porterhouse Whitworth building.

They now have a venue at 3 separate potential Metro stations!

Grandeeod

murphaph wrote: »

I just duck in and out of this thread and every time I do I regret it.

Likewise.:rolleyes: