Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

CatInABox

Zebra3 wrote: »

Varadkar's words aren't worth the paper they're not written on.

Yes, that's pretty much what I said in my post......

Just out of curiosity, is there a politician in your mind whose word is good?

Pete_Cavan

Leo also talked of a GE next year recently so hopefully he is true to his word and they loosen the purse strings to get projects moving, even if it is cynically for photo ops in the run up to the GE.

jd

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Can the thread be closed until something relating to Metrolink happens? We've had several pages of nonsense which those looking for updates have to wade through in case there is something of relevance.

From what I hear, the next update will be in a few weeks when a report by Jacobs for TII on the submissions regarding the Preferred Route will be published

Zebra3

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, that's pretty much what I said in my post......

Just out of curiosity, is there a politician in your mind whose word is good?

On (light) rail issues nobody springs to mind, but Varadkar is in charge so the focus is on him.

We've already seen half of ML being ditched.

CatInABox

Zebra3 wrote: »

On (light) rail issues nobody springs to mind, but Varadkar is in charge so the focus is on him.

We've already seen half of ML being ditched.

Oh yeah, the buck stops with him, they're all as bad as one another, but it'd be very easy for him to say something other than infrastructure spending going up. Despite what we all think here, it's not a vote winner with the general public.

On the southern section being axed, as much as Rethink Metrolink would like to claim credit (and they do), it was the sewer under the canal and the knock on effects that put paid to the plan, not any politic pressure.

Idbatterim

CatInABox wrote: »

Oh yeah, the buck stops with him, they're all as bad as one another, but it'd be very easy for him to say something other than infrastructure spending going up. Despite what we all think here, it's not a vote winner with the general public.

On the southern section being axed, as much as Rethink Metrolink would like to claim credit (and they do), it was the sewer under the canal and the knock on effects that put paid to the plan, not any politic pressure.

is what they are proposing now, going to still allow upgrade to metro southwards in future? I know that answer question has been posed and asked before, sorry!

is it me or does a sewer massively compromising a 3 billion plus project sound very irish! It seems here even the smallest issues causes mayhem! Watch the discovery channels and what they get done engineering wise in other countries, would leave your jaw on the floor!

donvito99

Idbatterim wrote: »

is what they are proposing now, going to still allow upgrade to metro southwards in future? I know that answer question has been posed and asked before, sorry!

is it me or does a sewer massively compromising a 3 billion plus project sound very irish! It seems here even the smallest issues causes mayhem! Watch the discovery channels and what they get done engineering wise in other countries, would leave your jaw on the floor!

I think the idea is to continue tunneling south towards Beechwood, how they bring it above ground without causing WW3 with residents is beyond me.

I think it would nearly be easier and cheaper to stop tunneling at SSG East, then cut and cover between SSG East and the bridge at Charlemont.

Trains would have to descend pretty quickly from the bridge into a trench under Adelaide Rd, running down Earlsfort Terrace to the station at SSG East. There would be CPO of a number of houses and what I believe is an old church/synagogue. See image below

CatInABox

Idbatterim wrote: »

is what they are proposing now, going to still allow upgrade to metro southwards in future? I know that answer question has been posed and asked before, sorry!

is it me or does a sewer massively compromising a 3 billion plus project sound very irish! It seems here even the smallest issues causes mayhem! Watch the discovery channels and what they get done engineering wise in other countries, would leave your jaw on the floor!

Yes, I think they'll be able to upgrade at some point, but political will is needed. Either they piss off all the commuters on the green line and shutter the line for 2 to 3 years, or they CPO a bunch of gardens and close roads in Ranelagh to allow a diversion around the dig site. No idea which they'll go with, possibly some other version as well.

Honestly, I think the delay is that they just haven't decided on how to deal with it, and it could be a few years before they look at all the options in detail, so there was no point in delaying the entire project for it.

CatInABox

donvito99 wrote: »

There would be CPO of a number of houses and what I believe is an old church/synagogue. See image below

The Church is a protected building, not a chance that the route could go through there.

donvito99

CatInABox wrote: »

The Church is a protected building, not a chance that the route could go through there.

Only the facade.

Although taking out a place of worship is the real issue.

MrAbyss

donvito99 wrote: »

Although taking out a place of worship is the real issue.

Only if you believe in an imaginary space fairy from the Middle East. Most Irish people don't anymore. At least not enough to save a God Shop.

salmocab

MrAbyss wrote: »

Only if you believe in an imaginary space fairy from the Middle East. Most Irish people don't anymore. At least not enough to save a God Shop.

Most doesn’t matter it’s the noisy minority that get their way in Ireland.

gjim

donvito99 wrote: »

I think the idea is to continue tunneling south towards Beechwood, how they bring it above ground without causing WW3 with residents is beyond me.

I think it would nearly be easier and cheaper to stop tunneling at SSG East, then cut and cover between SSG East and the bridge at Charlemont.

Trains would have to descend pretty quickly from the bridge into a trench under Adelaide Rd, running down Earlsfort Terrace to the station at SSG East. There would be CPO of a number of houses and what I believe is an old church/synagogue. See image below

I suggested the exact same thing a while back. But my back-of-fag-packet calculations indicated that it would be very tight to get from the level of the bridge over the canal to under Adelaide road without an infeasible incline. Otherwise it seems perfect to me and would offer a much less tricky tie-in.

The truncated Luas could be extended down Adelaide Rd and on to Irishtown or the south docklands or somewhere like that.

A huge advantage would be that you get the possibility of metro stations in Ranelagh and Beechwood without spending hundreds of millions mining out stations in difficult and cramped locations.

Otherwise, I just don't see the metro ever being extended to Sandyford. There's nowhere for the tie-in/tunnel portal north of Cowper without CPOing a huge bunch of back gardens - and we know that these locals went to war over not being able to drive to Morton's - just imagine the reaction. And if you tunnel as far as south of Cowper, you might be able to handle the tie-in without riling the NIMBYs but you've just shifted the problem/distruption/cost - you now have the job mining out underground metro stations at Ranelagh and Beechwood.

Sam Russell

gjim wrote: »

Otherwise, I just don't see the metro ever being extended to Sandyford. There's nowhere for the tie-in/tunnel portal north of Cowper without CPOing a huge bunch of back gardens - and we know that these locals went to war over not being able to drive to Morton's - just imagine the reaction. And if you tunnel as far as south of Cowper, you might be able to handle the tie-in without riling the NIMBYs but you've just shifted the problem/distruption/cost - you now have the job mining out underground metro stations at Ranelagh and Beechwood.

If the tunnel went west of the current line and approached /beechwood from the west and connected just south of Beechwood, there is a piece of land that would allow that. There is no need for any stops between Cowper and SSG as it just 2.3 km, but Cowper is only .5 km from Beechwood. If a stop is needed it could be at Mount Pleasant Sq.

The tunnel portal would require a bit of CPO around Beechwood which might be a problem.

It would mean that Beechwood would be the end of the Green Line, but an extension along Adelaide RD would make sense, with perhaps 60% of trams going that way, eventually extended to GCD.

marno21

Latest from Shane Ross

At the outset, let us all be clear that any “megaproject” like this requires careful planning and design and must rightly conform to a very high standard of statutory requirements in areas such as environmental protection or procurement for example.

In addition to those statutory requirements, both Transport Infrastructure Ireland and the National Transport Authority have held two significant non-statutory public consultations on the project. I am sure that the Deputy welcomes the fact that the public has been consulted at this early stage in the project’s development and the level of engagement that has been facilitated by both agencies.

The submissions received during the last of those two public consultations are still being considered and will inform the overall development of the project as it moves into its next phase.

This next phase is essentially composed of two elements –

1. Ensuring compliance with the Public Spending Code; and

2. The statutory planning process.

I would like to think the Deputy agrees both are of fundamental importance.

TII and NTA will in early 2020 present a business case for my consideration in line with the Public Spending Code. My Department will ensure appropriate and rigorous analysis of the business case as one would expect for a significant investment project.

A project of this scale requires Government approval and that approval will be sought once that analysis of the business case has been conducted.

The project is then expected to move into the statutory planning system during 2020 and again, given the scale and complexity of the project, it is probable that a decision will be made during 2021 which would allow the project move into its construction phase in 2021.

This is a huge and complex project with all of the requirements such scale imposes.

I am satisfied with progress to date and the timescale I have set out and am unclear as to what expedited measures the Deputy has in mind but am happy to hear of any suggestions.

ABP in 2020, decision in 2021 with construction in 2021 also seems ambitious at this point.

Procurement for such a project will have to begin in 2020 if that's the case.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

Latest from Shane Ross



ABP in 2020, decision in 2021 with construction in 2021 also seems ambitious at this point.

Procurement for such a project will have to begin in 2020 if that's the case.

They expect the decision in Q2 2021, so even if you're generous and say that the decision comes back on 1st April, then they've only got 9 months to complete tendering.

At a guess, I'm assuming that they've got some enabling works lined up that they expect to be able to do the after the decision comes down. That way they can say "construction started", with a photo op or two.

Of course, this all hangs on whether they get a positive response from ABP.....

My entire point is null, as my brain took in info that wasn't there.

Khuitlio

CatInABox wrote: »

They expect the decision in Q2 2020, so even if you're generous and say that the decision comes back on 1st April, then they've only got 9 months to complete tendering.

At a guess, I'm assuming that they've got some enabling works lined up that they expect to be able to do the after the decision comes down. That way they can say "construction started", with a photo op or two.

Of course, this all hangs on whether they get a positive response from ABP.....

I thought they only expected to apply to ABP in Q2 2020, with a decision in 2021?

MrAbyss

TII and NTA will in early 2020 present a business case for my consideration in line with the Public Spending Code. My Department will ensure appropriate and rigorous analysis of the business case as one would expect for a significant investment project.

Pretty much confirmation that apart from consultants making tens of millions, no Metrolink will ever be built. The words of Shane Ross are like a father handing his kid a sheet of paper and Biro and telling him that it's the same as him sending him to art college.

CatInABox

Khuitlio wrote: »

I thought they only expected to apply to ABP in Q2 2020, with a decision in 2021?

Yup, just a brainfart. Corrected, thanks.

Pete_Cavan

marno21 wrote: »

Latest from Shane Ross

ABP in 2020, decision in 2021 with construction in 2021 also seems ambitious at this point.

Procurement for such a project will have to begin in 2020 if that's the case.

I assume that when he says "allow the project move into its construction phase in 2021", that procurement is part of the overall construction phase.

Would be good if they could start the pre-qual part of the procurement process before the ABP decision. It is non-committal and is really an administrative exercise which shouldn't be effected by any ABP conditions or that.

CatInABox

Just realised that TFI did a bunch of videos for their various projects, including Metrolink. They also did an Ireland 2040, which includes Minister Ross waffling on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-p5jlCutvg

This video doesn't truly have anything new, but it does seem to have some purpose made CGI videos of Metrolink, including a few stations. It would be nice if the final stations are as light filled as this suggests.

machaseh

It's laughable how after almost 50 years not even a single shovel has been put in the ground to start work on the damn metrolink.

Projects can of course always be delayed due to unforeseen circumstances, but this thing hasn't even so much as started yet.

MrAbyss

machaseh wrote: »

It's laughable how after almost 50 years not even a single shovel has been put in the ground to start work on the damn metrolink..

and never will be. I can absolutely promise you this.

Threads like this and the DART underground one are nothing more than Role Playing Fantasy Games in Ireland.

I am not saying this to make fun of anyone here as you all had the same hopes I once had. I know these realizations are painful. Because they are true. I am just being honest with you. There is nothing coming ever in terms of either Metrolink or DART Underground. Deal with it or emigrate and raise your hopes and children in other countries. There is nothing in the way of this for any of us here in Ireland.

The people who had the same hopes walking out of the RDS in 1973 - watching the flashing lights on the Dublin Suburban Rail Plan booth - are in Glasnevin now. This is the only certainty.

LeinsterDub

MrAbyss wrote: »

and never will be. I can absolutely promise you this.

Threads like this and the DART underground one are nothing more than Role Playing Fantasy Games in Ireland.

I am not saying this to make fun of anyone here as you all had the same hopes I once had. I know these realizations are painful. Because they are true. I am just being honest with you. There is nothing coming ever in terms of either Metrolink or DART Underground. Deal with it or emigrate and raise your hopes and children in other countries. There is nothing in the way of this for any of us here in Ireland.

I'd not be so sure this time. Our lack of infrastructure is effecting multinationals investment in Ireland and FG and FF will take notice of their concerns

MrAbyss

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd not be so sure this time. Our lack of infrastructure is effecting multinationals investment in Ireland and FG and FF will take notice of their concerns

heard the same with the 'Oil is Running Out' as a kid. Then the 'Kyoto fines a comin!!!', 'Ciaran Cuffee is a Green TD for Dublin!!!' and now this.

It's always 'different this time'. Believe me.

machaseh

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd not be so sure this time. Our lack of infrastructure is effecting multinationals investment in Ireland and FG and FF will take notice of their concerns

The housing crisis in Dublin is also affecting multinationals and other companies who are looking for dear office space in dublin city center, yes. It's very hard to find enough office space for them in locations that are accessible for their potential employees. I myself work far out in south dublin and I know very well (as well as my company) that we are missing very many potential employees simply due to the fact that it's very hard for them to reach this office without a car, and even with a car the traffic is terrible.

Better public transport (preferably an underground line) would make much more potential land available for premium priced office space. This way, the public transport will not only benefit people who rely on it but also the rich multinationals that fine gael loves so much. It would be a win-win situation.

MJohnston

Every single time someone posts a substantive update, there's a bunch of moany old gits follow up by mashing on their keyboards. Can yis leave it out?

MrAbyss

MJohnston wrote: »

Every single time someone posts a substantive update, there's a bunch of moany old gits follow up by mashing on their keyboards. Can yis leave it out?

It's called being pragmatic based on five decades of the same lies, political families in power and crushing disappointments.

One day you will be one of us.

CatInABox

MrAbyss wrote: »

It's called being pragmatic based on five decades of the same lies, political families in power and crushing disappointments.

One day you will be one of us.

The thing is MrAbyss, we are like that. None of us are going around thinking that this thing is going to be built some time tomorrow, I'd argue that most are pessimistic about it.

However, I still want to talk about it. I don't need you coming in here and telling everyone about how you think it's never going to happen every time something is mentioned. Sure, it's a discussion forum, and anyone can post and all that, but you're not actually discussing. You're basically ridiculing anyone that wants to actually discuss it.

salmocab

MrAbyss wrote: »

It's called being pragmatic based on five decades of the same lies, political families in power and crushing disappointments.

One day you will be one of us.

Everyone is pessimistic about public transport but if we just talk about how it wont happen then the thread wont be readable, we have to work on the basis of what's published and what's in the media otherwise this place will be a carcrash of moaning about politicians with no mention of the real topic.