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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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    #1022
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,357 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Full automation? So will add 10 years to deployment.

    Why?


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    #1023
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,654 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    I second that why


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    #1024
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,779 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Full automation? So will add 10 years to deployment.

    SELTRAC has been tested to death. It's also been planned to be automated from day one; so its not like a retrofit. Won't delay anything.


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    #1025
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    L1011 wrote: »
    SELTRAC has been tested to death. It's also been planned to be automated from day one; so its not like a retrofit. Won't delay anything.

    Unions, fear, general uneasiness.

    Not being negative, just realistic.


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    #1026
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,357 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Unions, fear, general uneasiness.

    Not being negative, just realistic.

    People won’t care, there are several around with no real issues. There is a weird thing where people say what Irish people will or won’t be able for.
    Unions won’t be an issue as it’s a completely new set up with no changeover.


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    #1027
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    salmocab wrote: »
    People won’t care, there are several around with no real issues. There is a weird thing where people say what Irish people will or won’t be able for.
    Unions won’t be an issue as it’s a completely new set up with no changeover.

    exactly, have to say, fair bloody play to them for going automated. It will be nearly the year 2030 this thing is built, if its built, I think they have worked out the automation bit decades ago? :rolleyes:


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    #1028
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,357 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    exactly, have to say, fair bloody play to them for going automated. It will be nearly the year 2030 this thing is built, if its built, I think they have worked out the automation bit decades ago? :rolleyes:

    Automated is really the only proper option.


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    #1029
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Hasn't the Copenhagen metro been automated from day one since it opened in 2003?

    Won't be an issue.

    The electorate has changed since Mary O'Rourke's days.


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    #1030
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,521 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Unions, fear, general uneasiness.

    Not being negative, just realistic.

    There are no existing unions representing metro drivers that don't and won't ever exist in Ireland.


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    #1031
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,779 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Unions, fear, general uneasiness.

    Not being negative, just realistic.

    Its quite unlikely the operator will be a pre-existing unionised operator so the unions one is a red herring.

    Fear and unease of something that's proven for four decades should be dismissed with impunity. Human drivers cause far more issues.


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    #1032
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    L1011 wrote: »
    Its quite unlikely the operator will be a pre-existing unionised operator so the unions one is a red herring.

    Fear and unease of something that's proven for four decades should be dismissed with impunity. Human drivers cause far more issues.

    I can still see the transport unions kicking up a stink about it. Hopefully, they are ignored though.


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    #1033
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭Qrt


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    I can still see the transport unions kicking up a stink about it. Hopefully, they are ignored though.

    I doubt they’ll be standing in solidarity with their cyborg allies.


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    #1034
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    I can still see the transport unions kicking up a stink about it. Hopefully, they are ignored though.

    they dont give a toss about anything other than existing customers (their members) I think that is beyond blatant!

    The outrageous luas strikes a few years back, likely cemented this being automated, thank god!


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    #1035
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    they dont give a toss about anything other than existing customers (their members) I think that is beyond blatant!

    The outrageous luas strikes a few years back, likely cemented this being automated, thank god!

    It'll give them no power over a brand new rail system. Also, it is a loss of potential new customers for them. They will definitely not be happy about it being a driverless system. Sure didn't the unions in the UK kick up a stink when driverless systems were introduced there.

    I'm not saying they will be successful it getting rid of it but they will kick up a stink over it being driverless.


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    #1036
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    It'll give them no power over a brand new rail system. Also, it is a loss of potential new customers for them. They will definitely not be happy about it being a driverless system. Sure didn't the unions in the UK kick up a stink when driverless systems were introduced there.

    I'm not saying they will be successful it getting rid of it but they will kick up a stink over it being driverless.

    they will still need maintenance staff, cleaners, security etc. It's just one element that is doing away with humans. I dont know how many drivers this line would need, but what are you talking? 60-80? not a big deal either way to unions, but certainly from a passenger and headache perspective for the operator running the line and government, it makes total sense...


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    #1037
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,357 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    they will still need maintenance staff, cleaners, security etc. It's just one element that is doing away with humans. I dont know how many drivers this line would need, but what are you talking? 60-80? not a big deal either way to unions, but certainly from a passenger and headache perspective for the operator running the line and government, it makes total sense...

    Operation wise driverless can have shorter times between trains. I think I read 90 seconds whereas drivers need more time. It also save a bit of space at each end of the train for more passengers which both add up to more passengers per direction per hour. Now I don’t think it will start at 90 second headway’s but it gives somewhere to go as a line gets higher usage. It also means that taking out trains after peak times is easy with no rostering issues.


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    #1038
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    they will still need maintenance staff, cleaners, security etc. It's just one element that is doing away with humans. I dont know how many drivers this line would need, but what are you talking? 60-80? not a big deal either way to unions, but certainly from a passenger and headache perspective for the operator running the line and government, it makes total sense...

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282
    Rail Maritime and Transport union (RMT) members will vote on industrial action ahead of preparations to test trains without drivers.

    RMT general secretary Bob Crow said: "RMT reiterates this union's complete opposition to driverless trains. Every train must have a driver to ensure the safe and effective running of the Underground.

    "Plans to scrap drivers or reduce their driving duties are risking safety, services and jobs and are motivated by saving money and undermining trade unionism."

    Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?


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    #1039
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282



    Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?

    I wonder what the outcome of that was? look, they just need to be faced down, people have near zero sympathy for them. they wont have public support, the luas strikes did nothing but highlight, how overpaid they already were. This is a mountain being made into a molehill. The unions havent even mentioned this an issue and frankly I and I doubt the collossal majority, couldnt care less if they do. they are the primary driver of change to driverless for god sake!:rolleyes:


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    #1040
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282



    Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?

    They'll get no sympathy if they try the same thing.

    Times are moving on.

    Automation is doing away with boring repetitive jobs and creating higher tech jobs.


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    #1041
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I wonder what the outcome of that was? look, they just need to be faced down, people have near zero sympathy for them. they wont have public support, the luas strikes did nothing but highlight, how overpaid they already were. This is a mountain being made into a molehill. The unions havent even mentioned this an issue and frankly I and I doubt the collossal majority, couldnt care less if they do. they are the primary driver of change to driverless for god sake!:rolleyes:

    You said that it wasn't a big deal to the unions when I said they would kick up a stink about it. Doesn't matter what the outcome was, they still kicked up a stink. I also said I didn't think they would be successful in blocking the metro being driverless.

    I agree it should be driverless and that if the unions do stamp their feet about it they should be faced down.


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    #1042
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,920 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I don't get the safety argument - the DLR is driverless and has been running for years. Have there been any major incidents?
    How many accidents have been caused by SPADs (human error), which are pretty much impossible in an automated system.


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    #1043
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,078 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I don't get the safety argument - the DLR is driverless and has been running for years. Have there been any major incidents?
    How many accidents have been caused by SPADs (human error), which are pretty much impossible in an automated system.

    It's really nothing to do with safety but safety is a nice bogeyman for this type of thing. They have used safety as a reason to oppose things before. Strangely enough once their members get more money, their concerns are satisfied and they aren't worried about passenger safety anymore.


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    #1044
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,716 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282

    Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?

    That is all to do about existing railways which have humans driving them, and has a lot to do with protecting those jobs as well.

    It is a complete red herring in this case.

    Metrolink would be a brand new railway which will have protected platforms, new stock and fully automated signalling.

    It’s comparing apples with oranges.

    There is no reason why metrolink would cause mass union issues - it’s not going to spill over onto the existing railways as they’re built to a completely different spec and have far more need of local human supervision.


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    #1045
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,357 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    You said that it wasn't a big deal to the unions when I said they would kick up a stink about it. Doesn't matter what the outcome was, they still kicked up a stink. I also said I didn't think they would be successful in blocking the metro being driverless.

    I agree it should be driverless and that if the unions do stamp their feet about it they should be faced down.

    The major difference between the article and the metro is that it’s talking of doing away with union jobs that exist against a whole new system that doesn’t exist yet. They can stamp their feet and hold their breath but it won’t change a thing.


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    #1046
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,709 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I don't get the safety argument - the DLR is driverless and has been running for years. Have there been any major incidents?
    How many accidents have been caused by SPADs (human error), which are pretty much impossible in an automated system.

    There have been two accidents on the DLR and ironically both times the train was being operated manually by a driver!


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    #1047
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,779 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-19741282



    Do you not think the NBRU will be thinking the same here?

    There will never be any Metro drivers to go on strike.

    Sympathy strikes are illegal.

    They can bitch and moan from their other vehicles but if they go on strike they'll be injuncted and the union will be bankrupted.

    Its also quite likely that the operator, whoever they are, will pick a union to recognise for their other staff and ignore the rest; and that'll probably be SIPTU


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    #1048
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I reckon they will be out taking passenger figures to gauge demand for dublin metro tomorrow, perfect opportunity to scrap it!


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    #1049
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 14,200 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    If there's a recession now it wont happen then I can say I told you so and have a minor victory that no one cares about on the internet.


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    #1050
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    If there's a recession now it wont happen then I can say I told you so and have a minor victory that no one cares about on the internet.

    if we have a recession, its the perfect time to build it, avail of cheaper tender prices and keep thousands of skilled people in the country! they can ditch the off the wall NBP...


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    #1051
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    if we have a recession, its the perfect time to build it, avail of cheaper tender prices and keep thousands of skilled people in the country! they can ditch the off the wall NBP...

    But that would involve political courage!!!!! :pac:


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