Cork Mayoral Plebiscite

Anteayer

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Massive turn out in City councili the other night.

https://twitter.com/oliver_moran/status/1128406654972760069?s=19


Disappointing the level of engagement and interest in this. Most people I've spoken to dont give a toss.

What's surprising me is that UCC has done more to discuss, communicate and tease out what this is than any of the government bodies, political parties or public representatives.

There's been a steady stream of very well balanced articles from various UCC academics on local government reform and I think their Department of Government has been showing its worth in terms of contribution to discourse on reforms.

I think they deserve a lot of praise, as do many other active political scientists in Ireland. We've had something of a golden age of academics being able to reflect on Irish political and administrative structures and get real traction in the media and commentary in a way you don't see in the UK and US.

I think it's really good to see that level of engagement by academics and it's something that's emerged in Ireland in a big way, particularly since the NI peace process era which seemed to really activate discussion about structural reforms in Irish political debate.

At least we are actually getting some degree of constructive self criticism and engagement.

Also while people don't have time to turn up at events like that, there has been solid discussion in the media on this and it hasn't been tabloid stupidity either. It's been balances and nuanced.

Brussels Sprout

I believe that a No vote will not lead to any reform (e.g. the status quo prevailing since the Seanad referndum).

However I also believe that it could definitely end up as just an extra job with no real powers. That is certainly a risk.

I was on the fence about this for a while but I'm going to be optimistic and vote Yes on the basis that it's a step in the right direction.

Roger Hassenforder

Anteayer wrote: »

What's surprising me is that UCC has done more to discuss, communicate and tease out what this is than any of the government bodies, political parties or public representatives.

There's been a steady stream of very well balanced articles from various UCC academics on local government reform and I think their Department of Government has been showing its worth in terms of contribution to discourse on reforms.

I think they deserve a lot of praise, as do many other active political scientists in Ireland. We've had something of a golden age of academics being able to reflect on Irish political and administrative structures and get real traction in the media and commentary in a way you don't see in the UK and US.

At least we are actually getting some degree of constructive self criticism and engagement.

Also while people don't have time to turn up at events like that, there has been solid discussion in the media on this and it hasn't been tabloid stupidity either. It's been balances and nuanced.

UCC have a good local government school/ faculty thing
Aodh Quinlivan for one is a good speaker on the topic, regularly rolled out in the media. Theyre quite vocal on Cork issues, very much in favour of the boundary expansion.

Anteayer

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

UCC have a good local government school/ faculty thing
Aodh Quinlivan for one is a good speaker on the topic, regularly rolled out in the media. Theyre quite vocal on Cork issues, very much in favour of the boundary expansion.

I'd see that as a very positive thing though. There's an important role for academics in political discussion about topics like that. You're seeing the contrary in the US and UK where experts have been very aggressively shut out of public debate.

It's something that having a decent government/ political science department in UCC is driving and it's definitely putting Cork's issues onto a national platform in a way that politicians can't do. You're getting a big dose of objective, analytical input that's the kind of thing that's sorely lacking in tabloid land across the water.

We generally still have a very decent community of political scientists, economists and other academics who are able to engage in public debate here and be accessible in a way that's a bit unusual by international comparison.

Bringing serious research into the public domain is really healthy in a political system and being able to engage with academics without them being in a bubble is also hugely important.

I just think it's impressive to see a university playing a genuine public role like that. You don't see it as much in a lot of places I've lived.

Anteayer

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I believe that a No vote will not lead to any reform (e.g. the status quo prevailing since the Seanad referndum).

However I also believe that it could definitely end up as just an extra job with no real powers. That is certainly a risk.

I was on the fence about this for a while but I'm going to be optimistic and vote Yes on the basis that it's a step in the right direction.

A No vote will just take it off the agenda for a generation. There'll be no reform of local government at all if that happens.

I'd say there's a significant possibility of a yes vote in Cork and a no vote in one or both of the other cities though.

I'm only basing this on my own straw polling but it seems a lot of Cork people are engaged with the idea of more autonomous government for the city, whereas the focus in Limerick media seems to have been very heavily on the idea that it will cost more money. I'm not familiar enough with Waterford to comment though but I have seen much evidence of significant debate there.


It will be interesting to see what happens.

snotboogie

Anteayer wrote: »

A No vote will just take it off the agenda for a generation. There'll be no reform of local government at all if that happens.

I'd say there's a significant possibility of a yes vote in Cork and a no vote in one or both of the other cities though.

I'm only basing this on my own straw polling but it seems a lot of Cork people are engaged with the idea of more autonomous government for the city, whereas the focus in Limerick media seems to have been very heavily on the idea that it will cost more money. I'm not familiar enough with Waterford to comment though but I have seen much evidence of significant debate there.


It will be interesting to see what happens.

I don't see anything different in Cork. I've seen no polling but anecdotally 9/10 people I have spoken to are saying NO with an exclamation mark. Not to discount more nuanced views expressed here but IRL it's all about the money, a couple of hundred k... I really fear that this won't pass, the mistakes will be learned for the Galway and Dublin plebiscites and we'll be left behind

Anteayer

I'd say if there's a no vote the Dublin and Galway ones will drop off the agenda too.

Executive mayors and powerful local government tends to go against the grain for TDs who act like super councillors, doing things that should be local government matters.

So I'd say if there's a rejection of this, Irish local government reform will just stall for a generation at least.

namloc1980

From twitter it seems that this will be a No vote. Won't be actually counted until Monday but based on what's coming out of the boxes it'll be a No and won't even be close. Such a shame.

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

From twitter it seems that this will be a No vote. Won't be actually counted until Monday but based on what's coming out of the boxes it'll be a No and won't even be close. Such a shame.

I’ve seen no exit polls on this anywhere. Where on Twitter did you see this?

namloc1980

No exit polls but search for Cork mayor and there's a few people saying it based on what's been coming out of the box and also heard it on Newstalk. As I said to be counted on Monday but indications are a No vote.

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

No exit polls but search for Cork mayor and there's a few people saying it based on what's been coming out of the box and also heard it on Newstalk. As I said to be counted on Monday but indications are a No vote.

I kind of expected it but it’s still astonishing. More of the same it is then....

MrDerp

snotboogie wrote: »

I kind of expected it but it’s still astonishing. More of the same it is then....

Not more of the same, rather back to the drawing board.

When we asked for Seanad reform FG tried to abolish it, whilst also advocating Dáil committees making legal findings in an assault on democracy. And then they claimed we ‘didn’t want reform’. Reform for reform sake is not reform, its an agenda.

And I’ll bet plenty of councilors advocating for this were eyeing the job up. I noticed a lot of councilors with safe seats really upped their poster size and coverage this year

We need to be careful to keep separation of executive, legislative and judicial. An elected CEO muddies the line between executive and legislative bodies.

snotboogie

MrDerp wrote: »

And I’ll bet plenty of councilors advocating for this were eyeing the job up. I noticed a lot of councilors with safe seats really upped their poster size and coverage this year

We need to be careful to keep separation of executive, legislative and judicial. An elected CEO muddies the line between executive and legislative bodies.

I heard the opposite, councilors at the door telling people to vote no.

According to Twitter early counts in Limerick indicate a yes vote.

namloc1980

Comical if Limerick ends up with a strong elected Mayor and Cork says No. Pathetic.

Anteayer

People were turning up in polling stations without any awareness or the plebiscite or with no idea of how it would work or what it meant.

I've heard quite a few reports where people either haven't taken the mayoral ballot paper or were trying to get explanations from polling station staff about what it was.

Total communication failure probably because it wasn't happening in Dublin thus the national media ignored it.

snotboogie

Anteayer wrote: »

People were turning up in polling stations without any awareness or the plebiscite or with no idea of how it would work or what it meant.

I've heard quite a few reports where people either haven't taken the mayoral ballot paper or were trying to get explanations from polling station staff about what it was.

Total communication failure probably because it wasn't happening in Dublin thus the national media ignored it.

And local media running with ridiculous clickbait headlines about a salary which is a fraction of a fraction of the national budget. Watch this get run in Dublin in a years time with the full weight of FG getting in front of the salary and fully outlining the the scope of the role having learned from the dopes down in Cork who tested it for them first.

marno21

namloc1980 wrote: »

Comical if Limerick ends up with a strong elected Mayor and Cork says No. Pathetic.

There's a possibility of an extension to this of down the road Galway and Dublin getting their ducks in a row and Dublin, Galway and Limerick having directly elected mayors and Cork having none. And we think things are bad now?

The whole thing is a mess though. Limerick's mayor, if elected, will have control over rural Dromcollogher 50km from the city but not control over parts of the city that extend into Clare. Cork's mayor on the other hand will have no control over places like Little Island. Waterford's mayor will control the entire county but not the parts of the city into Kilkenny.

As long as the tribal county before practicality nonsense goes on around cities there will be issues with Dublin, Limerick and Waterford.

snotboogie

The journal are reporting that this won’t pass in Limerick either now, however the count does seem a lot closer there

Anteayer

We don't have all that much information to go on so far, so I guess not much point in getting over-excited until it's counted on Monday.

snotboogie

Anteayer wrote: »

We don't have all that much information to go on so far, so I guess not much point in getting over-excited until it's counted on Monday.

Reports seem pretty definitive for Cork. MM sticking his kneck out means it’s done

WoolyJumper

It's a shame that its going to be a no but its no real surprise. I would love to see another vote on this with a proper campaign behind it and proper balanced debate on RTE. And to see it taken seriously not just locally but nationally. However that would probably be considered undemocratic.

the dark phantom

Voted No as I couldn't trust the plan to be implemented properly.

the dark phantom

namloc1980 wrote: »

Comical if Limerick ends up with a strong elected Mayor and Cork says No. Pathetic.

I could picture FG or FF running Paul O Connell for mayor :rolleyes:

Roger Hassenforder

WoolyJumper wrote: »

It's a shame that its going to be a no but its no real surprise. I would love to see another vote on this with a proper campaign behind it and proper balanced debate on RTE. And to see it taken seriously not just locally but nationally. However that would probably be considered undemocratic.

Some of us did take it seriously and voted no.
Nothing to do with money either

snotboogie

https://twitter.com/jess_jcasey/status/1132322598249992192?s=21

Utterly disappointed to see so much more sense in Limerick than in Cork, where this is being crushed, FG and the media both share in the blame but the local electorate are ultimately responsible. There is still a very powerful anti change, anti urban, traditional base across Cork City, it’s evidant in everything from the Pana Ban, to the M28 steering group, to the opposition to the city boundary extension, right down to the relatively tight results in the last two referendums. There are some great people in the city who want to drive it forward but the silent majority seem pretty happy being a semi urban backwater

namloc1980

Turnout will be in the mid 40% range. Very poor.

WoolyJumper

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Some of us did take it seriously and voted no.
Nothing to do with money either

Fair enough and I respect that. Doesn't mean there was a fair debate (or well any real debate )around the matter. I would like to see another vote on this. I voted yes but that was based on the little information I had on the matter. I am open to changing my mind. I just want to see a proper debate. Not on redfm or the evening echo but Primetime. I hate being the bitter Cork person but I know that if this was a Dublin city matter it would have been on Primetime. It didn't get the attention it deserved. RTE is our national tv station. It shouldn't be just for Dublin.

namloc1980

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Fair enough and I respect that. Doesn't mean there was a fair debate (or well any real debate )around the matter. I would like to see another vote on this. I voted yes but that was based on the little information I had on the matter. I am open to changing my mind. I just want to see a proper debate. Not on redfm or the evening echo but Primetime. I hate being the bitter Cork person but I know that if this was a Dublin city matter it would have been on Primetime. It didn't get the attention it deserved. RTE is our national tv station. It shouldn't be just for Dublin.

Much more likely that that's the end of any sort of local government reform for Cork for a generation. There's not going to be another vote on this. And it'll be used as a stick to beat Cork with in the future. How many times in this forum have we seen people looking for more autonomy for Cork in decision making? Yet when the chips were down Cork people didn't want it. Shame.

WoolyJumper

namloc1980 wrote: »

Much more likely that that's the end of any sort of local government reform for Cork for a generation. There's not going to be another vote on this. And it'll be used as a stick to beat Cork with in the future. How many times in this forum have we seen people looking for more autonomy for Cork in decision making? Yet when the chips were down Cork people didn't want it. Shame.

But it isn't like people didnt want it, I just don't think people know what they were voting for. From speaking to people a lot of people didn't get that this wasn't about voting for another "Lord Mayor" but I was about voting for our city manager. Someone who could fight on Corks behalf and actually potentially give people a greater a say on how our city develops.

But I think you are right. That's it for a generation. We probably won't see another vote on this for some time. Despite the whole thing being a shambles. No one really stepped up and took charge of this campaign. Michael Martin can be appalled all he wants but he didn't step up. Neither did Coveney. Two high profile politicians from Cork who could have made a difference on this.

MrDerp

snotboogie wrote: »

https://twitter.com/jess_jcasey/status/1132322598249992192?s=21

Utterly disappointed to see so much more sense in Limerick than in Cork, where this is being crushed, FG and the media both share in the blame but the local electorate are ultimately responsible. There is still a very powerful anti change, anti urban, traditional base across Cork City, it’s evidant in everything from the Pana Ban, to the M28 steering group, to the opposition to the city boundary extension, right down to the relatively tight results in the last two referendums. There are some great people in the city who want to drive it forward but the silent majority seem pretty happy being a semi urban backwater

I’m pro boundary extension, pro m28, pro pana ban (and I’d like a full time one), pro repeal and pro marriage equality ... and said no to this proposal.

Sorry not to fit in your box. People aren’t as black and white as you think.