Cork Mayoral Plebiscite

MrDerp

snotboogie wrote: »

I heard the opposite, councilors at the door telling people to vote no.

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That’s interesting, because I followed all my local councilors on Twitter last week and delved into their historic posts to see their positions on stuff. they all were advocating for it. Strange if they said something else at the door.

snotboogie

MrDerp wrote: »

That’s interesting, because I followed all my local councilors on Twitter last week and delved into their historic posts to see their positions on stuff. they all were advocating for it. Strange if they said something else at the door.

Terry Shannon was vociferous at at doors advocating a no. Id be shocked if he was pushing yes on social media but to be fair I don’t follow him. On your other point, I’m not saying everybody fits exactly in a box, or that everybody who advocates for one of those positions advocates for all, just that there is an underlying anti change, county town mentality in Cork, which all of those issues have highlighted to different degrees

Itssoeasy

snotboogie wrote: »

Terry Shannon was vociferous at at doors advocating a no. Id be shocked if he was pushing yes on social media but to be fair I don’t follow him. On your other point, I’m not saying everybody fits exactly in a box, or that everybody who advocates for one of those positions advocates for all, just that there is an underlying anti change, county town mentality in Cork, which all of those issues have highlighted to different degrees

Or it was the fact that only for the booklet that came from the electoral commission I'd have had no idea what voting yes or no would mean. Very poorly done by all the parties down here advocating for a yes.

snotboogie

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Or it was the fact that only for the booklet that came from the electoral commission I'd have had no idea what voting yes or no would mean. Very poorly done by all the parties down here advocating for a yes.

Which is fair but at the same time this could still pass in Limerick and they had the exact same information that we did

namloc1980

Lots of people voted no because of the salary for the elected Mayor. Yet the unelected and unaccountable Chief Executive currently has a salary in excess of that proposed for the elected Mayor. Seems we're ok with that.

j8wk2feszrnpao

MrDerp wrote: »

I’m pro boundary extension, pro m28, pro pana ban (and I’d like a full time one), pro repeal and pro marriage equality ... and said no to this proposal.

I'm the same. Good change is good.

Anteayer

The biggest issue I was hearing yesterday was that nobody knew the details of the proposal.

If they were serious about this they should have fully defined the role of the new mayors in simple terms and in draft legislation.

Instead, we had all sorts of fuzzy ideas of what powers they have.

There were even people asking the polling staff technical questions about what the mayor's proposed role would be!

If they'd put a clearly communicated proposal forward maybe we could have discussed it properly.

Unless you were following the nuances of the proposals very closely, you wouldn't have had a clue what exactly was being proposed.

The issue was you were asking people to approve a mystery box.

You're asking people to pick between the status quo and a change. So the change has to be extremely clear and communicated properly.

Unfortunately, I think the political system failed miserably to do that.

Again, I think the academics did their best to inform, but ultimately the political parties have the platform and the government should have made the proposals far more clear and concise.

This was a plebiscite, not Blind Date.

I'd say maybe the best approach would be to revisit a reform of this again when ALL the cities are being asked and there's a national debate and a proposal that people can actually be sure of what the hell they're voting on!

MrDerp

namloc1980 wrote: »

Lots of people voted no because of the salary for the elected Mayor. Yet the unelected and unaccountable Chief Executive currently has a salary in excess of that proposed for the elected Mayor. Seems we're ok with that.

Where did you read/hear that?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/local_and_regional_government/county_or_city_manager.html

The council can remove them, therefore they are accountable.

They are appointed via the public Appointments process. This is better than a public vote, because why should the public (who know sod all about running a city) assess executive qualifications?

namloc1980

MrDerp wrote: »

Where did you read/hear that?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/local_and_regional_government/county_or_city_manager.html

The council can remove them, therefore they are accountable.

They are appointed via the public Appointments process. This is better than a public vote, because why should the public (who know sod all about running a city) assess executive qualifications?

So basically you're saying no politician who will have executive functions should be elected by the electorate?

Roger Hassenforder

namloc1980 wrote: »

So basically you're saying no politician who will have executive functions should be elected by the electorate?

The executive implements what elected members decide.
This has to be the most uninformed plebiscite ever.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/local-government-network/2014/mar/24/irish-councillors-powers-veto-chief-executive

Roger Hassenforder

If its any consolation* for those who wanted it and voted yes, or encouragement to those who voted no for reasons other than money, the Greens who are big on subsidiarity/devolvement look to have made massive gains, and hopefully can drive proper reform.


* if it falls

MrDerp

namloc1980 wrote: »

So basically you're saying no politician who will have executive functions should be elected by the electorate?

Politicians set policy and make laws at the behest of the public. The executive implements policy and are accountable to policy makers, and the more senior national executive.

This directly elected mayor attempts to Hotwire an elected executive to bypass the councils policy with an individual who can make spending decisions.

And that’s why I voted no, because it is less democratic than what we have. Sure, it’s more direct, but it concentrates power in individuals and is an open goal for populists.

I get why some people want this. It’s tempting to bypass committees and plans that can take a long time to implement. Consensus is difficult with a limited pot of money.

However, for me a better reform would be a full time council with full time pay. That way we’re not limited to candidates who are in jobs where it’s convenient to fit in council work. Right now it tends to be filled with landlords and business owners plus some community workers. If they got paid the average industrial wage, it could attract a more focused group of full time individuals who could get more policy work done and still have time to chase projects as stakeholders.

Rhys Essien

The fact that the vote was on Friday a month before the city will officially increase its population by ~100k people was a complete joke. Did the people in Ballincollig,Douglas,Glanmire and elsewhere get the opportunity to vote on their new city mayor?

It should have been put off until July at the very least.

namloc1980

Full time councillors won't happen anyway because it's pointless given the limited powers local government have in Ireland. Also can you imagine the opposition if that was proposed: "more jobs for the boys / gravy train / pigs in the trough" etc.

Ludo

Rhys Essien wrote: »

The fact that the vote was on Friday a month before the city will officially increase its population by ~100k people was a complete joke. Did the people in Ballincollig,Douglas,Glanmire and elsewhere get the opportunity to vote on their new city mayor?

It should have been put off until July at the very least.

Yes..people who will become part of the city soon did get to vote on the mayoral question.

MrDerp

namloc1980 wrote: »

Full time councillors won't happen anyway because it's pointless given the limited powers local government have in Ireland. Also can you imagine the opposition if that was proposed: "more jobs for the boys / gravy train / pigs in the trough" etc.

I know. It’s actually a pity because the system that’s there ensures more piggies than full timers would. It makes councils effective extensions of the chamber of commerce in some instances.

snotboogie

96fm reporting that this is a lot tighter than was first expected. Reporter seemed to indicate yes slightly ahead.

Roger Hassenforder

snotboogie wrote: »

96fm reporting that this is a lot tighter than was first expected. Reporter seemed to indicate yes slightly ahead.

This should be counted pretty quickly

snotboogie

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

This should be counted pretty quickly

https://twitter.com/RedFMNews/status/1132949361971924993

Brussels Sprout

https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1132966748150480901

SleetAndSnow

Still get the feeling it's not gonna pass by a margin of maybe 2-300 votes. Here's to hoping it does though

namloc1980

Yes is ahead

SleetAndSnow

https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1132974183598706689?s=19

Back to 50/50.

Roger Hassenforder

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

Still get the feeling it's not gonna pass by a margin of maybe 2-300 votes. Here's to hoping it does though

If it falls, a strong 'yes' vote would still give a mandate reform is wanted. Greens might make something of it

A strong "no" and it falling, is bad for everyone.
Except those cribbing about the cash.


If it passes, nobody will give a shît about the 'no' vote. So be it.

SleetAndSnow

neck and neck in Cork and Waterford with yes ahead by about 4k in Limerick according to Eoin English anyway

namloc1980

Would be quite the shambles for it to pass in Limerick and fail in Cork.

AugustusMinimus

namloc1980 wrote: »

Would be quite the shambles for it to pass in Limerick and fail in Cork.

This is of course what will happen.

namloc1980

No shading it

namloc1980

Looks certain to be a Yes in Limerick

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AugustusMinimus

I see people on twitter calling for Ministerial level powers for the Limerick Mayor.

Yet another shambles for Cork I suspect. It’s as if people in this city want to see zero positive developments.

I also suspect that with a yes vote in Limerick, Galway and Dublin will eventually vote yes.