Cork Mayoral Plebiscite

Anteayer

It needs serious deliberation. There's no point in another half arsed FG reform like abolishing town councils or the Seanad or those mergers that I still think will damage Limerick and Waterford Cities.

Bear in mind the Limerick role isn't a city mayor. it's more like some kind of single powerful figure for a whole county which makes absolutely no sense from a local government point of view when you think about it.

I could see the whole process being held off now until it's done with all 5 cities.

namloc1980

Rejected by nearly 1,000 in the end. Not even as close as expected. Embarrassing.


.

snotboogie

marno21 wrote: »

According to Buttimer today on 96FM if rejected it'll be run again as is or after the citizens assembly work on it.

Which may not be the worst if it's actually thought out properly this time

https://twitter.com/PierceKennedy/status/1133015259076337664

Even if it's a no it'll likely be 50:50 within 2% or so so the issue will be far from put to bed.

I'd pay zero attention to your man Pierce, absolute looper. No matter how you spin it this is the worst case scenario, passing in Limerick and failing in Cork

AugustusMinimus

Peoples Republic of Cork my arse. Vassal state more like.

snotboogie

snotboogie wrote: »

https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1133011557951135745

Eoin English can barely hide his giddyness at the result. "its a no, like" typical of the local media here who have been bulling for this to fail for some unknown reason.

And here he is retweeting this:

https://twitter.com/emmetohalloran/status/1133018105163276290

Our local media

mire

Bad day for Cork in my opinion. Does this city have any ambition? Regardless of whether this was substantive enough as a local government reform it was still a very important opportunity.

namloc1980

So we'll stick to the status quo of FFG carving up the ceremonial Lord Mayor role between them for the next 5 years. How wonderful.

Anteayer

A few points:

1. This reorganised powers within a local authority. There was never any net gain of autonomous power on the cards.

2. Cork is a city, not a merger of a city and county which is a FAR more significant advantage than a direct elected mayor.

3. Cork City still has local government and that has been reasonably competent to date at promoting the city.

4. It is by quite some margin Ireland's second city and that's incredibly unlikely to change regardless of what type of local government you put in place.

Personally, I'd like a total reform with much more authority devolved to city hall. Then maybe we might take local elections seriously.

The most likely outcome of this is Limerick will be waiting until the whole process is rethought. A plebiscite is just that. It's got no legally binding power on the government to do anything.

However, if it does go ahead as planned, you end up with a Mayor of County Limerick (including Limerick City) and in reality that could end up being some kind of populist as the role has been so poorly defined.

I don't think jumping into a load of hysterical nonsense about how this is the end of Cork City is relevant or sensible

At present it has exactly the same system of local government as Dublin has.

I'd add I actually voted in favour of it but I can very much see both sides of the argument. I was just optimistic that it might be a first step towards reform.

I think Ireland needs total reform of local government and frankly this proposal was only paying vague lip service to it.

namloc1980

Anyone expecting some big fundamental local government reform will be waiting a long time. A DELM would be the start of that movement to reform but alas Cork has said no. Let the annual swapping of the chain commence.

pwurple

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Peoples Republic of Cork my arse. Vassal state more like.

Don't be so utterly naive.

I voted to retain an experienced, qualified City Manager, not to phunt in some populous clown with no powers, like that leprechaun in the Aras.

This was an attempt to get us a fall man. Feck that. There are people already there to do this job. The city chief executive. Give them the power.

Roger Hassenforder

namloc1980 wrote: »

So we'll stick to the status quo of FFG carving up the ceremonial Lord Mayor role between them for the next 5 years. How wonderful.

Mick Fim was independent...
As was deputy Thomas Maloney

Roger Hassenforder

Jesus the anguish here and on twitter is appalling. This was a non binding plebiscite. No more/no less. Its not the beginning of the end of Cork. The sky wont fall in on ourselves and Waterford, as Limerick is somehow elevated in standing to the sound of clarions.

People decrying why the fools rejected it, is similar to Brexit/Trump. People unable to countenance others might have as informed an opinion as their own, anyone not agreeing is an idiot, dismissing views as those of a crank. The dangers of the echo chamber.

Sure people voted due to the perceived cost, and its embarrassing to be associated with them, almost as much as one should be embarrassed for voting for something they didnt understand , or because of the hope for some consequential reform, that "its better than nothing"

Whats clear from the process though, is people haven't a fcuking clue how local government in this country works, is funded, how the executive delivers servicces etc. Other than occasional ineptitude, its not an entirely dysfunctional system. It could be a lot better though.

Maybe this will be a catalyst for people to engage in the conversation of reform, keep it on the agenda. Much as i dislike them locally (although i held my nose and voted for them in Europe), if you're interested in proper and substantial reform, the Greens are the party for you. The lack of activity on the thread until now speaks volumes of the apathy bar a few.

If there was any real intention to reform "by Dublin", we'd have more than the 1996 and 2014 acts by now. Change must come from within, it aint coming from Dublin.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Pity those on the Yes side didn't have some of the passion (if I can be generous enough to use that word) as those on here for the proposal.
This wasn't some "game changer" that the City has lost out on. It was flimsy at best, and had plenty of cons to it.
It was a 50/50 split. It's not a disgrace as some like to portray, nor would it have been a victory to celebrate had it passed.

Anteayer

I'd say it'll be forgotten about in a few months, including in Limerick. I don't really see the government rolling out a different system of local government in one city only as being a very reasonable way forward.

A narrowly won plebiscite in a single region (it wasn't a city mayor in Limerick or Waterford) is not really a good mandate for huge policy change. It's only the start of a discussion.

We need a national discussion on local government reform but the problem is, even political science circles, people glaze over when you try to discuss it.

I'd be far more concerned about the long term impact of the effective dissolution of Limerick and Waterford Cities into a big county mush of a local authority.

If you further concentrate power in Limerick, you'll end up with serious damage to the county. It's already a messy setup.

At least Cork avoided that very short sighted merger proposal. I think in the medium term Cork's in a FAR better position as it's actually a city council with an expanded boundary and a significantly big population that gives it critical mass.

The strong mayor Vs council issue has pros and cons.
I'm just baffled as to how it would work in Limerick or Waterford as merged city / county councils though. at least in Cork it would have been a city mayor.

I mean what happens in Limerick City for example if the mayor wants to divert all focus to let's say Newcastle West? Or you get a city focused mayor who starves rural Limerick of attention and funding? Or farmer mayor who wants to push agricultural issues. There's going to be a serious difficulty avoiding getting local political figures trying to launch careers as TDs and also avoiding populists. Every county has its internal local politics in a way a concentrated city has a lot less of.

What they've just landed themselves with is like no other directly elected mayor. I don't quite know what it is.

At least in Cork it would have been an actual mayor of a city.

The more I look at it the more I think Waterford in particular had a lucky escape!

Scoondal

The people of Cork would prefer the unelected city manager to run the city. The city council will vote on motions, and if passed those proposals will now continue to be notified to the city manager for his approval or for him to reject.
What kind of people voted for less democratic accountability ?
This is ridiculous.

SleetAndSnow

Sounds like the end of discussion from this: https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1133034465159262209

''Dublin next'', yep lets just move on

snotboogie

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

Sounds like the end of discussion from this: https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1133034465159262209

''Dublin next'', yep lets just move on

That’s a definite response to a lot of the posts above

j8wk2feszrnpao

Scoondal wrote: »

What kind of people voted for less democratic accountability ?

The majority.
You do you realise you're attempting to ridicule a democratic vote, just because it didn't go your way. It was close. A better campaign, and a proper proposal for a mayor with proper powers, could easily get over the line.

snotboogie

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The majority.
You do you realise you're attempting to ridicule a democratic vote, just because it didn't go your way. It was close. A better campaign, and a proper proposal for a mayor with proper powers, could easily get over the line.

If and buts, as many of us warned and Leo has just confirmed, we’d get one shot at this and this vote was a practice run for Dublin. I always agreed that this was poorly executed and the role was poorly defined but the downside of voting no was much larger than the downside of voting yes. The worst case scenario was that Dublin, Limerick and Galway all got their mayors when we didn’t and that the roles would evolve into meaningful local powers. The first part of that is already materializing, it will be months or years until we know the outcome of the second part but Cork is in real danger of losing out.

WoolyJumper

Disappointing but I don't see it as the end of the world either. I also don't think it's the end of the discussion. It would seem odd for Limerick to be the only city with a directly elected mayor and if Dublin votes it in you can be sure Cork will want to look at the issue again.

Varadkars tweet infuriates me though. Very dismissive. If his party was so invested in having elected mayors for our cities then they should have ran a better campaign....or any campaign for that matter.

namloc1980

Limerick getting a public message of support from the Taoiseach underlines the missed opportunity here and Cork lumped in with Waterford. Anyway the people have spoken and that's that. Hope it works out for Limerick and we can turn our attention to the important business of who gets the ceremonial chain next.

j8wk2feszrnpao

snotboogie wrote: »

If and buts, as many of us warned and Leo has just confirmed, we’d get one shot at this and this vote was a practice run for Dublin.

Leo won't be around for ever. If it's desired, it'll be back as an option.

snotboogie wrote: »

I always agreed that this was poorly executed and the role was poorly defined but the downside of voting no was much larger than the downside of voting yes.

snotboogie wrote: »

The worst case scenario was that Dublin, Limerick and Galway all got their mayors when we didn’t and that the roles would evolve into meaningful local powers.

You agree that it was a poorly defined role, yet we should have voted for it anyway? This where the Yes vote lost; "just go along with it, twill be grand, it'll evolve". If Leo had ran a proper campaign, with clearly defined roles for the mayor, then he won't have needed his pointless tweet.

MrDerp

Oh no, what have we done???

Mayor Willie O’Dea is going to be using the power of lobbying to steal our FDI and capital investment! Pharmas and tech companies are gonna go to Limerick because they have a mayor. The Dáil and public accounts committee will tremble and hand over the cash, lest the mayor of Limerick brings their hordes of ... um ... local voters against them!

The M20 is gonna be a 3-lane Limerick ring road now. Cork people will have to change at Limerick Junction. Shannon will be taking A380s and Cork reduced to a few turbo props to Luton.

Gonna be a bloodbath for Cork. We might as well pack up and leave as the mayor of limerick will crush us both domestically and internationally. Fear his mighty 5 year term!

Squatter

namloc1980 wrote: »

Limerick getting a public message of support from the Taoiseach underlines the missed opportunity here and Cork lumped in with Waterford. Anyway the people have spoken and that's that. Hope it works out for Limerick and we can turn our attention to the important business of who gets the ceremonial chain next.

Shoo-in - if he wants it. Not even Willie would dare to stand against him.

Roger Hassenforder

MrDerp wrote: »

Oh no, what have we done???

Mayor Willie O’Dea is going to be using the power of lobbying to steal our FDI and capital investment! Pharmas and tech companies are gonna go to Limerick because they have a mayor. The Dáil and public accounts committee will tremble and hand over the cash, lest the mayor of Limerick brings their hordes of ... um ... local voters against them!

The M20 is gonna be a 3-lane Limerick ring road now. Cork people will have to change at Limerick Junction. Shannon will be taking A380s and Cork reduced to a few turbo props to Luton.

Gonna be a bloodbath for Cork. We might as well pack up and leave as the mayor of limerick will crush us both domestically and internationally. Fear his mighty 5 year term!

The looting has started.

Bishopstown is on fire

Roger Hassenforder

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The majority.
You do you realise you're attempting to ridicule a democratic vote, just because it didn't go your way. It was close. A better campaign, and a proper proposal for a mayor with proper powers, could easily get over the line.

We need a people's vote!

Anteayer

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Disappointing but I don't see it as the end of the world either. I also don't think it's the end of the discussion. It would seem odd for Limerick to be the only city with a directly elected mayor and if Dublin votes it in you can be sure Cork will want to look at the issue again.

Varadkars tweet infuriates me though. Very dismissive. If his party was so invested in having elected mayors for our cities then they should have ran a better campaign....or any campaign for that matter.

It's extremely dismissive. Does he look to find out why it failed? No! It's almost like a passive aggressive chastisement of Cork and Waterford.

The proposal was completely unclear. For example, I still am not quite sure how the mayor would be accountable to the council or how the role will interact with the appointed executive and I would regard myself as a lot more engaged with politics than most people I know are.

The campaign was abysmally badly run and were was a lot of leap-of-faith type stuff being asked for.

In terms of local government reform, I certainly will not be voting FG.

What's the deal now? Vote FG in Cork = Vote to undermine the city in favour of Limerick!? I'd say the local FG TD's will be delighted with him.

Anteayer

The communication, despite what's being said to defend it, was abysmal. I didn't even get any information through the door on the mayoral plebiscite at all. Did they even mail shot the whole city properly?

i'm still not convinced that this will be particularly good for Limerick as it is NOT a city mayor. They've created an utterly weird position that is a mayor of a whole county/city merged authority with 194,899 people, of whom 104,952 are in the Limerick metropolitan area, which is fairly broadly defined.

So, roughly 90,000 pop lives in areas that have little to do with the city and will be electing the mayor.

Could just as easily end up being mayor who's openly hostile to urbanity as one who's from the city.

If anything, the exec mayor proposal was tailor made to suit Cork City and its extended boundary, it's a very odd setup in Limerick for that system of local government.

I find FG have made crude attempts at structural reform of politics:

1) Attempted to abolish the Seanad - reform needed (umpteen reports available on this, but never implemented)
2) Abolished town councils - (Should have been reformed and rolled out to all larger towns, not scrapped)
3) Effectively abolished Limerick and Waterford Cities in their merger. (Completely inappropriate slamming together of cities and huge rural counties)
4) Poorly thought out executive mayor plebiscite that had no substance behind it and was vague as hell. (Rushed and ill conceived)
5) Taoiseach appearing to get somewhat ratty because said plebiscite was defeated by tiny % in Cork and Waterford. (Bad communication)

snotboogie

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Leo won't be around for ever. If it's desired, it'll be back as an option.




You agree that it was a poorly defined role, yet we should have voted for it anyway? This where the Yes vote lost; "just go along with it, twill be grand, it'll evolve". If Leo had ran a proper campaign, with clearly defined roles for the mayor, then he won't have needed his pointless tweet.

Yes and I clearly explained why. So far the worst case scenarios outlined by people in favor have come to pass. Yes this was a test run for Dublin, yes Limerick voted this in, yes central govt will back the result and no there won’t be any rerun in Cork. People can make all the hilarious jokes about riots in Bishopstown and prosperity in Limerick they want but this is a terrible result for Cork.

j8wk2feszrnpao

snotboogie wrote: »

So far the worst case scenarios outlined by people in favor have come to pass.

No it hasn't. An undefined role hasn't been passed. Ramming through something without proper diligence undermined the entire process, and aided the No vote.

The hilarious jokes are there because people are totally over reacting to this. And of course it could be re-ran in Cork again at some point. Leo might easily be on the opposition benches when it is rerun, not too far in the future.