Cork Mayoral Plebiscite

AugustusMinimus

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Give it a year of Limerick having a mayor making headlines talking up Limerick and I guarantee that a subsequent plebiscite will pass easily.

Who says we’ll get another plebiscite?

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2021/0214/1197093-opportunities-brexit-nationalism/ this article really shows the benefit of directly elected city mayor's in the UK. Still can't belive this was voted down in Cork.

Small town mindset in Cork is very widespread unfortunately.

TheChizler

Anyone I talked to who was against it couldn't get past them being paid a salary.

namloc1980

TheChizler wrote: »

Anyone I talked to who was against it couldn't get past them being paid a salary.

I wonder do those people work for free?

rebs23

This issue just has to be revisited as soon as possible and we should be insisting it's done in conjunction with a possible Mayoral election in Limerick. We just cannot let this go.

Patrick 1959

Plebiscite was heavily indorse by The Government for the 4 Provincial City’s , just like the Government push for the amalgamation of City Council and County Councils a year or two before the Plebiscite Vote , by the way Cork City escaped that fiasco by the skim of our teeth. My view on the Boundary Amalgamation and Plebiscite ,then as it is now is , if it’s so Beneficial for Us , then why didn’t any of the 5 or 6 Dublin Councils Amalgamate or look for Plebiscite.

Brussels Sprout

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Who says we’ll get another plebiscite?

That's true but I believe that there may be another one in 3 years:

While Cork and Waterford rejected similar plans in 2019, the Government's legislation will pave the way for plebiscites on the issue in 2024. Those mayors would be elected in 2029 or perhaps earlier, Mr Burke said.

Mr Burke said the Citizens Assembly would review the issue of a mayor for Dublin in the third quarter of this year.

link

namloc1980

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Plebiscite was heavily indorse by The Government for the 4 Provincial City’s , just like the Government push for the amalgamation of City Council and County Councils a year or two before the Plebiscite Vote , by the way Cork City escaped that fiasco by the skim of our teeth. My view on the Boundary Amalgamation and Plebiscite ,then as it is now is , if it’s so Beneficial for Us , then why didn’t any of the 5 or 6 Dublin Councils Amalgamate or look for Plebiscite.

This is a bit of a red herring. There are 4 council areas in Dublin which were created in the 90s and early 2000s due to the size of the county (population wise). It would make no sense to undo that.

A mayor for Dublin has been on the agenda for a long time and the start of that process is due later this year.

Patrick 1959

Population Dublin City and County 1,347,000 4 Council Areas .
population Cork City and County 555, 000 2 Council Areas , which The Government had no problem making into 1 Council.

I actually think Plebiscite is a good idea , It works perfectly well in New York , London etc but then I look at Our Government and there record for short changing anything outside the M 50 . Remember the pouty sum given for Europes Cork City of Culture compared Dublin term and the School of Music promise. Blame for City running out of money etc will be down to the Mayor. The Government and the Cork TD will be off the hook “ it’s the Mayor Fault “ . sorry I’m on a bit of a rant here .but the Plebiscite offered before the Election had no detail or figures but don’t worry Plebiscite will be offered again and let’s hope they’ll put a bit of effort into the Details next time.

rebs23

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Population Dublin City and County 1,347,000 4 Council Areas .
population Cork City and County 555, 000 2 Council Areas , which The Government had no problem making into 1 Council.

I actually think Plebiscite is a good idea , It works perfectly well in New York , London etc but then I look at Our Government and there record for short changing anything outside the M 50 . Remember the pouty sum given for Europes Cork City of Culture compared Dublin term and the School of Music promise. Blame for City running out of money etc will be down to the Mayor. The Government and the Cork TD will be off the hook “ it’s the Mayor Fault “ . sorry I’m on a bit of a rant here .but the Plebiscite offered before the Election had no detail or figures but don’t worry Plebiscite will be offered again and let’s hope they’ll put a bit of effort into the Details next time.

There's no doubt there will be issues, problems and mistakes but that shouldn't detract from the principle of Local democracy being allowed to occur.
Overall it will be for the better of Cork that there is an office and elected official who only has to concentrate on strategically placing Cork in a better position.
The sooner it's revisited the better.

namloc1980

Patrick 1959 wrote: »

Population Dublin City and County 1,347,000 4 Council Areas .
population Cork City and County 555, 000 2 Council Areas , which The Government had no problem making into 1 Council.

I actually think Plebiscite is a good idea , It works perfectly well in New York , London etc but then I look at Our Government and there record for short changing anything outside the M 50 . Remember the pouty sum given for Europes Cork City of Culture compared Dublin term and the School of Music promise. Blame for City running out of money etc will be down to the Mayor. The Government and the Cork TD will be off the hook “ it’s the Mayor Fault “ . sorry I’m on a bit of a rant here .but the Plebiscite offered before the Election had no detail or figures but don’t worry Plebiscite will be offered again and let’s hope they’ll put a bit of effort into the Details next time.

The rejection of the Mayor in Cork was absolutely bizarre when you think more about it. Imagine voting against more local democracy. We constantly moan here in Cork that we get nothing from Dublin etc. and then when presented with the opportunity for stronger and more accountable local government we said no thanks. Crazy.

And as was clear, a lot of people were hung up on the Mayor actually being paid a salary to do the job. It's hard to get around that sort of mentality.

namloc1980

rebs23 wrote: »

There's no doubt there will be issues, problems and mistakes but that shouldn't detract from the principle of Local democracy being allowed to occur.
Overall it will be for the better of Cork that there is an office and elected official who only has to concentrate on strategically placing Cork in a better position.
The sooner it's revisited the better.

Unfortunately I think we have missed the boat for at least the short-to-medium term. Dublin will almost certainly be next to get a Mayor as that is on the agenda for later this year. The Limerick mayoral election will take place in late 2021/early 2022 by the looks of it. I don't think it'll be revisited for Cork until closer to the Local Elections in 2029. And let's face it, a lot of our esteemed Councillors were against the elected mayor because they didn't want to miss out on the chance of wearing the ceremonial chain for 12 months. As I said, it's hard to overcome that mentality.

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

The rejection of the Mayor in Cork was absolutely bizarre when you think more about it. Imagine voting against more local democracy. We constantly moan here in Cork that we get nothing from Dublin etc. and then when presented with the opportunity for stronger and more accountable local government we said no thanks. Crazy.

And as was clear, a lot of people were hung up on the Mayor actually being paid a salary to do the job. It's hard to get around that sort of mentality.

People voted "no" for many reasons.
Its rather foolish to dismiss them as tight fisted or nescient.

I know some very informed people who voted no.

Salary probably bring one. Other reasons include it being ill-planned, badly sold, and poorly thought out, a "jobs for the boys" exercise, potentially detriment to the regional authority, a sop to reform à la the Senate fiasco, and having regard to capital delivery of public strategic infrastructure, possibly impotent , along with those who didnt care much for the "shut up and vote yes" attitude of many.

Would a Mayor for Cork City be detrimental to the County of Cork? We've an upside down democratic system. Local politicians railing against potholes in the national Parliament rather than legislating, and poorly resourced local Councillors, that need a second job to make ends meet. We haven't actually too bad a system (considering) , a Mayor as an executive manager over the current reserved/executive functions might i believe even be contrary to local democracy, and for all our commitments to Rio, in certain respect subsidiarity is only a concept in Dublin.

We've the current Taoiseach from Cork, previous couple of years' Tanaiste. 11% of the TDs are from Cork. We're not short of a national voice, we just need a more effective one. We'd be better off with a self centered party for Greater Cork affairs, get 6 or 7 TDs in. That would be power. Not a mayor who would be blamed for everything that goes wrong, or end up with a populist , or devisive figure like Chu or Khan. It could end up as whomever throws the biggest election budget promising forever homes and a canopy over the city to stop the rain, getting the gig.

I voted no last time, nothing to do with money.
"Ah but its a start" you might say. Possibly. But you need to sell it better, not "sure isn't it a great idea, isn't Manchester delighted".

What exactly could they do, that we can't currently do, if we but got our sh1t together. Spell out exactly what powers they'll have.
We got rid of town councils, a truly anti local democratic move to save feck all money. A merger of the city and county was threatened, Limerick and Waterford carried out (Tipperary too but that doesn't count). This is another sop.

The plebiscite was a shambles. Thats why it fell. Not because people were worried about the salary. And if they try it again, in a similar fashion, it will fail again.

Patrick 1959

Pretty much sums up my feelings also .

MrDerp

namloc1980 wrote: »

The rejection of the Mayor in Cork was absolutely bizarre when you think more about it. Imagine voting against more local democracy. We constantly moan here in Cork that we get nothing from Dublin etc. and then when presented with the opportunity for stronger and more accountable local government we said no thanks. Crazy.

I voted no because:

1. I don’t believe that concentrating powers to an individual is actually better democracy
2. I think it would lead to a popularity contest based on vanity projects and white elephants.
3. I can’t see what the individual would be able to achieve without direct funding. If you were to propose universal rates/council tax or other local revenue raising measures alongside it, I could believe in having a mayor to oversee that investment. Without that the job is just a moaner-in-chief putting up park benches with anemic property tax and parking ticket revenues.

The illness does not lie with the council and committee system, rather it is the people we choose to represent us, along with people thinking the city should develop without them contributing directly to it.

namloc1980

MrDerp wrote: »

I voted no because:

1. I don’t believe that concentrating powers to an individual is actually better democracy
2. I think it would lead to a popularity contest based on vanity projects and white elephants.
3. I can’t see what the individual would be able to achieve without direct funding. If you were to propose universal rates/council tax or other local revenue raising measures alongside it, I could believe in having a mayor to oversee that investment. Without that the job is just a moaner-in-chief putting up park benches with anemic property tax and parking ticket revenues.

The illness does not lie with the council and committee system, rather it is the people we choose to represent us, along with people thinking the city should develop without them contributing directly to it.

1. Executive power in local government currently sits with an appointed chief executive who is not answerable to the people. How exactly is that better?
2. This is just silly reasoning. You might as well say that you don't believe in elections and elected officials.
3. They would have full responsibility for the local government budget.

Local government in Ireland is dysfunctional. A mayor may not solve it all, but the current system is indefensible. Well at least the lads get to wear the ceremonial chain for 12 months so that's nice I suppose.

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

1. Executive power in local government currently sits with an appointed chief executive who is not answerable to the people. How exactly is that better?

3. They would have full responsibility for the local government budget.
.

Nope
You clearly don't understand how local government works if that's your view, yet here you are condemning it as not fit for purpose. (I'm not saying its ideal, but a Mayor isn't the fix as proposed IMO).

The CE is already answerable to the elected members, I.e. the people. They have power to remove the CE.

Budgets are a reserved function. The executive finance Dept. prepares the budget for adoption by resolution.

Local government in Ireland is very much a partnership. The executive delivers national and local policies, regulate etc.

If the Councillors want something done, that isn't national policy, they have to vote on the funding of it, or ensure it washes its own face. Hence the craic every year at budget time, where the Cllrs are held accountable for the delivery of services.

Delivery of services are benchmarked and compared e.g. NOAC /LG Management Services to see how their LA is performing.
All such reports freely available.

namloc1980

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Nope
You clearly don't understand how local government works if that's your view, yet here you are condemning it as not fit for purpose. (I'm not saying its ideal, but a Mayor isn't the fix as proposed IMO).

The CE is already answerable to the elected members, I.e. the people. They have power to remove the CE.

Budgets are a reserved function. The executive finance Dept. prepares the budget for adoption by resolution.

Local government in Ireland is very much a partnership. The executive delivers national and local policies, regulate etc.

If the Councillors want something done, that isn't national policy, they have to vote on the funding of it, or ensure it washes its own face. Hence the craic every year at budget time, where the Cllrs are held accountable for the delivery of services.

Delivery of services are benchmarked and compared e.g. NOAC /LG Management Services to see how their LA is performing.
All such reports freely available.

You make it sound like local government in Ireland is pretty good. I'm actually stunned that anyone could think it is. Examples abound of rubbish local government in Cork and inability/unwillingness to get things done: Tramore Valley Park debacle, failure to take action to improve mobility during Covid crisis, little or no enforcement of traffic regulations and illegal parking, councillors and a Chief Exec who just moan about anybody advocating for the things they don't care about such as cycling infrastructure etc. I deal with Local Authorities in both a personal and business capacity and the experience is tortuous between lack of response and endless red tape. A Mayor won't solve everything but the current setup is dysfunctional and far from the utopia you paint.

namloc1980

namloc1980 wrote: »

You make it sound like local government in Ireland is pretty good. I'm actually stunned that anyone could think it is. Examples abound of rubbish local government in Cork and inability/unwillingness to get things done: Tramore Valley Park debacle, failure to take action to improve mobility during Covid crisis, little or no enforcement of traffic regulations and illegal parking, councillors and a Chief Exec who just moan about anybody advocating for the things they don't care about such as cycling infrastructure etc. I deal with Local Authorities in both a personal and business capacity and the experience is tortuous between lack of response and endless red tape. A Mayor won't solve everything but the current setup is dysfunctional and far from the utopia you paint.

Jesus, talk about a strawman.
I literally said "Its not ideal".

For someone professing familiarity with LAs, you've demonstrated a "stunningly" poor grasp of how they work.

But muh "red tape" and "torturous" to deal with. (What's the yard stick?). Booking a holiday v a planning application?

What you're referring to is either inertia to do something or make a decision, at a local level, driven by personalities or piss poor management. (The very CE you refer to, an attempt was made to prevent her appointment for whatever reason).

Plenty of LAS have done the very thing you decry.Take Ballinincollig Regional Park. To anyone who has ever visited, its an excellent amenity developed by Cork County Council.

Lack of litter enforcement is not due to the system being deficient, its either a funding - not enough wardens to deal with the problem, or Cork people don't actually give a sh1t about their surroundings.
Is enforcement or education the issue?
A mayor can not do anything here, that existing structures can't provide for.
Hire more wardens? Who pays?
Byelaws? Already provided for in legislation.
Environmental awareness officers? they're already there.

So other than "but the system isn't working, and a mayor might fix it", you haven't given a single reason why there should be one, only condemn those you seem to regard as somehow less informed penny pinchers.

So you might give an example or two of what powers this mayor might have to bring about this change in service delivery, that the current structures are unable to provide.

For someone so condemning of the "no" vote, your argument is pretty woeful TBF.

cantalach

namloc1980 wrote: »

1. Executive power in local government currently sits with an appointed chief executive who is not answerable to the people. How exactly is that better?

Not only can the CE be fired by the elected council (as another poster has pointed out), she/he and other functionaries of the executive can also be overruled by the elected council through a simple majority vote. This happens quite regularly across the country. So there absolutely is a democratic safeguard there.

If you use the argument of direct accountability to the people to justify having an elected executive, then you could use the same argument to justify directly elected police management, public prosecutors, local school boards, etc. No thanks.