"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 1 "Winterfell"

The White Wolf

I didn't really see them painting Dany as a villain in the episode. More her decisions and dismissal of advice are starting to catch up on her. Sam is the after thought she didn't account for and you could see how difficult it was for her to tell him what she did.

Dany's journey has been about learning how to rule and this is just the latest obstacle she needs to face up to. She has adapted in the past to this and that's opposed to someone like Cersei who sees it as not only her right to rule but to do it unquestioned as well - that's why she chose a sycophant as a hand and Dany didn't.

The conflict with Sansa I would call a case of two people who have gotten to a point where neither of them are willing to give an inch. One isn't worse than the other.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, the books are what got me hooked in the first place. I'll 100% be returning once they are released, but will probably read the 2nd half of the last one again to catch up before starting anything new. The TV show is a decent sidekick though, but not a patch on the books. For all it's faults (pages of greasy beards, lemon pies and boiled leather can get to be a bit much) the amount of info conveyed and the world conjured is beyond compare.

I tried to re-read the books again last year. Honestly it's tough going. The first book is grand. The second book is grand. But after that it becomes hard work. Half of the remaining books should have ended up on the editing room's floor.

Dare I say it, the TV show is actually better than the books in later seasons. It's definitely more accessible anyway, those books are IMO totally off limits for a more casual reader. The screen writers did a good job cutting a lot of the book crap out of the TV show.

Conall Cernach

Deleted User wrote: »

They ruined Stannis for me. Easily one of the best characters in the book. An absolute tactical master when it comes to battle, who withstood the siege of Storm's End for a year. What does he do in the show? Marches on Winterfell. In the snow. On foot. And camps out in the open. Really?

One thing my nephew pointed out to me was that Stannis survived the Battle of Winterfell even though he was on foot and in the front rank of his army. He must be a complete bad ass.

Loafing Oaf

lawred2 wrote: »

Euron is great and the scenes with Cersei were excellent

I thought it was brilliant how she was shown to be attracted to him on an animal level, even though the cold, rational part of her probably despises him. Part of the underlying GoT of illustrating how people are driven by their base instincts...

Paddy Cow

The White Wolf wrote: »

I didn't really see them painting Dany as a villain in the episode. More her decisions and dismissal of advice are starting to catch up on her. Sam is the after thought she didn't account for and you could see how difficult it was for her to tell him what she did.

Dany's journey has been about learning how to rule and this is just the latest obstacle she needs to face up to. She has adapted in the past to this and that's opposed to someone like Cersei who sees it as not only her right to rule but to do it unquestioned as well - that's why she chose a sycophant as a hand and Dany didn't.

The conflict with Sansa I would call a case of two people who have gotten to a point where neither of them are willing to give an inch. One isn't worse than the other.

Dany learned to rule in across the seas but the rules are different in Westeros. Sansa knows how to play the game here but Dany doesn't understand that you can't simply say "I'm the Queen so bend the knee". I really don't want to see Dany as ruler. Her whole life has been about claiming the throne but she has given little thought to what she's going to do once she sits the throne. Her dragons have always been her power and we have seen that they are not immortal. If she loses her dragons she doesn't have much going for her. It'll be interesting to see how she reacts when she finds out that Jon has a stronger claim to the throne than her.

leggo

awec wrote: »

Dare I say it, the TV show is actually better than the books in later seasons. It's definitely more accessible anyway, those books are IMO totally off limits for a more casual reader. The screen writers did a good job cutting a lot of the book crap out of the TV show.

A lot would have you hung, drawn and quartered for that comment, but I agree. The show has streamlined well and cut a lot of the crap that didn't need to be in there. It feels like GRRM has written himself into a corner tbh, a consequence of being a gardener rather than an architect perhaps and not mapping out your story but letting it develop. Sansa is just stranded and completely ineffectual to the main plot, there's been so many resurrections now (after emotional deaths that hit home like

Brienne

) that I can't believe in any character dying, the Quentynne plot took a long time to go nowhere and it feels like the Iron Islands plot is going the same way. The Dany storyline makes the absolute age it took to get through the Slaver's Bay plot on TV seem like 100m compared to a marathon!

Don't get me wrong, I did actually love the books and will read whatever else we get, it's just the TV show is better for me. The only plotlines I wish the show covered, so I'd know I was getting resolution on, are Lady Stoneheart and Young Griff.

People give out about the show going off the rails when they diverged from the book, but I think a lot of those haven't actually read the books in full. Some of the best stuff on GoT has been show-only stuff: Hardhome, Winds of Winter, Battle of the Bastards, even things like Cersei and Rob's heart-to-heart in series 1.

Paddy Cow

awec wrote: »

I tried to re-read the books again last year. Honestly it's tough going. The first book is grand. The second book is grand. But after that it becomes hard work. Half of the remaining books should have ended up on the editing room's floor.

Dare I say it, the TV show is actually better than the books in later seasons. It's definitely more accessible anyway, those books are IMO totally off limits for a more casual reader. The screen writers did a good job cutting a lot of the book crap out of the TV show.

I agree 100%. The first two books were great, the third was ok and the last two were a slog. Too many characters and story arcs and while the last few seasons have gone downhill, it's a reflection on the books as well. Martin talked to the producers and told them how the books were meant to end. I think he wimped out and let the show over take the books because he knew he couldn't tie up all his arcs. There was no way he could finish his story in just two more books.

Paddy Cow

leggo wrote: »

A lot would have you hung, drawn and quartered for that comment, but I agree. The show has streamlined well and cut a lot of the crap that didn't need to be in there. It feels like GRRM has written himself into a corner tbh, a consequence of being a gardener rather than an architect perhaps and not mapping out your story but letting it develop. Sansa is just stranded and completely ineffectual to the main plot, there's been so many resurrections now (after emotional deaths that hit home like

Brienne

) that I can't believe in any character dying, the Quentynne plot took a long time to go nowhere and it feels like the Iron Islands plot is going the same way. The Dany storyline makes the absolute age it took to get through the Slaver's Bay plot on TV seem like 100m compared to a marathon!

Don't get me wrong, I did actually love the books and will read whatever else we get, it's just the TV show is better for me. The only plotlines I wish the show covered, so I'd know I was getting resolution on, are Lady Stoneheart and Young Griff.

People give out about the show going off the rails when they diverged from the book, but I think a lot of those haven't actually read the books in full. Some of the best stuff on GoT has been show-only stuff: Hardhome, Winds of Winter, Battle of the Bastards, even things like Cersei and Rob's heart-to-heart in series 1.

I remember a few seasons ago book readers were waiting for the appearance of Lady Stoneheart. She hasn't been mentioned in ages and I'm glad they cut her from the show. A couple of things are strange for me though. In the books, the direwolves were a lot more important and a big deal was made of Arya also being a competent warg. That was also cut. I would love for Martin to finish the books, just to get his take on it but I don't think it will happen.

leggo

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I remember a few seasons ago book readers were waiting for the appearance of Lady Stoneheart. She hasn't been mentioned in ages and I'm glad they cut her from the show. A couple of things are strange for me though. In the books, the direwolves were a lot more important and a big deal was made of Arya also being a competent warg. That was also cut. I would love for Martin to finish the books, just to get his take on it but I don't think it will happen.

I liked keeping Bran as the only warg, it’s such a cool power but Arya and Jon also having it (and not using it for anything constructive) definitely diluted it a bit.

I liked how they brought Nymeria into the show as the leader of the pack of wild wolves, that storyline was class and barely developed in the books, so having it play out in the show in some kind of epic wolves vs wights battle would be really cool.

RobbingBandit

Bran waiting for wight hodor or wight summer

Paddy Cow

leggo wrote: »

I liked keeping Bran as the only warg, it’s such a cool power but Arya and Jon also having it (and not using it for anything constructive) definitely diluted it a bit.

I liked how they brought Nymeria into the show as the leader of the pack of wild wolves, that storyline was class and barely developed in the books, so having it play out in the show in some kind of epic wolves vs wights battle would be really cool.

I agree it's best to keep it to Bran, it makes the story less complicated but it makes me wonder where Martin was going with the idea that three of the Starks are accomplished wargs. Was there a reason or had he over complicated the story by adding that.

RobbingBandit

Having only 10 hours of screen time per season alot of content would have to be cut from the source material that can be very dangerous when the story is unfinished if the on screen adaption is to remain loyal to it in this case it is based on which gives HBO licence to kill the source material and rewrite it as they see fit which in many cases has been very strange and almost unbearable to see, the adaptions have been good in other parts but seeing characters underused or misused has been frustrating.

For instance Dorne deserved a place in the story better than the bad poosy brutality, killing off characters that played vital roles in the story and amalgamated or renamed characters has also been bloody frustrating, characters doing silly uncharacteristically wrong things too has confused book readers but the show is in a world quite separate to the book now and until the books are finished any comparison can not properly take place.

Loafing Oaf

wp_rathead wrote: »

Chrisht that Umber kid scared the bejaysus outa me

Me too

Biggest tv/movie shock I've experienced since

Riddle101

What's the timeline in the show now? The show has gone on for about 8 or 9 years but it can't be the same amount of time in the show's timeline can it? How long has it been since Ned Stark got his head cut off?

Tazzimus

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Dany learned to rule in across the seas but the rules are different in Westeros. Sansa knows how to play the game here but Dany doesn't understand that you can't simply say "I'm the Queen so bend the knee". I really don't want to see Dany as ruler. Her whole life has been about claiming the throne but she has given little thought to what she's going to do once she sits the throne. Her dragons have always been her power and we have seen that they are not immortal. If she loses her dragons she doesn't have much going for her. It'll be interesting to see how she reacts when she finds out that Jon has a stronger claim to the throne than her.

She has the Unsullied and the Dothraki, so hardly nothing.
Fairly sure she has the biggest army at the moment, by a fair amount.

Sleepy

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I agree it's best to keep it to Bran, it makes the story less complicated but it makes me wonder where Martin was going with the idea that three of the Starks are accomplished wargs. Was there a reason or had he over complicated the story by adding that.

Arya used her latent ability to warg to see through the eyes of a cat when the Faceless Men blinded her which allowed her to identify the "kindly man" in the House of Black and White which allowed her to get her sight back.

Jon will presumably use his latent abilitites to warg into Ghost so that his mind is preserved when he's resurrected by Mellisandre in The Winds of Winter.

Having more than one of the Stark children have the ability demonstrates it as a genetic talent that only Bran has mastered.

awec

leggo wrote: »

A lot would have you hung, drawn and quartered for that comment, but I agree. The show has streamlined well and cut a lot of the crap that didn't need to be in there. It feels like GRRM has written himself into a corner tbh, a consequence of being a gardener rather than an architect perhaps and not mapping out your story but letting it develop. Sansa is just stranded and completely ineffectual to the main plot, there's been so many resurrections now (after emotional deaths that hit home like

Brienne

) that I can't believe in any character dying, the Quentynne plot took a long time to go nowhere and it feels like the Iron Islands plot is going the same way. The Dany storyline makes the absolute age it took to get through the Slaver's Bay plot on TV seem like 100m compared to a marathon!

Don't get me wrong, I did actually love the books and will read whatever else we get, it's just the TV show is better for me. The only plotlines I wish the show covered, so I'd know I was getting resolution on, are Lady Stoneheart and Young Griff.

People give out about the show going off the rails when they diverged from the book, but I think a lot of those haven't actually read the books in full. Some of the best stuff on GoT has been show-only stuff: Hardhome, Winds of Winter, Battle of the Bastards, even things like Cersei and Rob's heart-to-heart in series 1.

I think he got bored writing so just started inventing new characters as a way to amuse himself.

His problem now is there are so many story arcs (and the book arcs are way more complicated than the TV show) that there is going to have to be some bizarrely abrubt endings for some characters if he wants to finish it in 2 books.

Lady Stoneheart is an odd one for me. So far, from what I remember, she's a very minor character in the books. But if you introduce that character to the TV show it would be hard to keep it as a minor character, you'd have to introduce some plot and purpose. She's a bit of an odd one really.

Young Griff confused me. In the books, Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen. In the TV show Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryen. Is it Martin's intention for there to be two Aegon Targaryens alive at the same time in the books, both with the same father but different mothers? That would definitely be confusing. Or have the TV show just merged a few characters together for simplicity sake?

Sleepy

I think Young Griff is an unwitting pretender to the throne a la Perkin Warbeck in real history.

EagererBeaver

Sleepy wrote: »

I think Young Griff is an unwitting pretender to the throne a la Perkin Warbeck in real history.

There's nothing unwitting about him. Didn't he take charge of assault plans and head off to Storm's End against Connington's advice?

Sleepy

Unwitting as in he believes he's Aegon when in fact he (and perhaps Connington) have been lied to by others as to his true parentage (probably a Blackfyre).

Duckworth_Luas

Sleepy wrote: »

Unwitting as in he believes he's Aegon when in fact he (and perhaps Connington) have been lied to by others as to his true parentage (probably a Blackfyre).

You're mixing Warbeck up with Lambert Simnel.

Warbeck was fully aware of his own real identity. Simnel was a puppet.

Sleepy

Not enough coffee this morning!

leggo

awec wrote: »

Young Griff confused me. In the books, Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen. In the TV show Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryen. Is it Martin's intention for there to be two Aegon Targaryens alive at the same time in the books, both with the same father but different mothers? That would definitely be confusing. Or have the TV show just merged a few characters together for simplicity sake?

There’s no way to know until the books get released, but I took Jon being named Aegon as significant. There’s no way it’s a coincidence! How I interpret it is giving us a nod that Griff isn’t relevant to the endgame so this was them writing him out. I’d agree with those who say he’s a pretender, an insurance plan for Connington, Ilyrio and Varys if Viserys/Dany didn’t work out.

Dial Hard

Sleepy wrote: »

Not enough coffee this morning!

There isn't enough coffee in the world for me, it's been so long since I read the books. I'd forgotten all of this stuff.

Tazzimus

leggo wrote: »

There’s no way to know until the books get released, but I took Jon being named Aegon as significant. There’s no way it’s a coincidence! How I interpret it is giving us a nod that Griff isn’t relevant to the endgame so this was them writing him out. I’d agree with those who say he’s a pretender, an insurance plan for Connington, Ilyrio and Varys if Viserys/Dany didn’t work out.

I wonder if they've done a bit of ****ery with his name, and he'll be called something different in the books.
Similar to Asha/Yara, Jeyne/Talisa.

Or merged the two characters, a la Euron/Victarion.

awec

Dial Hard wrote: »

There isn't enough coffee int eh world for me, it's been so long since I read the books. I'd forgotten all of this stuff.

I have forgotten almost all of the book content that didn't make the shows.

There's just so much irrelevant detail and plot lines that it's actually hard to keep track of it all.

EagererBeaver

awec wrote: »

Dial Hard wrote: »

There isn't enough coffee int eh world for me, it's been so long since I read the books. I'd forgotten all of this stuff.

I have forgotten almost all of the book content that didn't make the shows.

There's just so much irrelevant detail and plot lines that it's actually hard to keep track of it all.

Show needed more Darkstar. The Dorne plot was one of the few redeeming features from AFFC and ADWD and the didn't use it at all. Preferred bad pussssaaaayyyy.

Conall Cernach

EagererBeaver wrote: »

There's nothing unwitting about him. Didn't he take charge of assault plans and head off to Storm's End against Connington's advice?

I think Sleepy means that Young Griff mistakenly believes that he is Aegon Targaryen and heir to the throne while he is really a Blackfyre or some other non-legitimate Targaryen scion.

Riddle101

I know it's been mentioned before but it looks like Tyrion has been dumbed down while Cersei has been made smarter in the later seasons. All I can think of is that scene in season 3 when Cersei says "You're a clever man. But you're not half clever as you think you are" and Tyrion replies "Still makes me more clever than you". I guess Tyrion is eating his words now because Cersei has effectively outwitted him several times.

Tyrion's character is being wasted and turned into a comedy act nowadays. When you consider that part of the charm of Tyrion's character comes from his intellect, it kind've ruins what made him such a cool character.

The White Wolf

Riddle101 wrote: »

I know it's been mentioned before but it looks like Tyrion has been dumbed down while Cersei has been made smarter in the later seasons. All I can think of is that scene in season 3 when Cersei says "You're a clever man. But you're not half clever as you think you are" and Tyrion replies "Still makes me more clever than you". I guess Tyrion is eating his words now because Cersei has effectively outwitted him several times.

Tyrion's character is being wasted and turned into a comedy act nowadays. When you consider that part of the charm of Tyrion's character comes from his intellect, it kind've ruins what made him such a cool character.

Cersei's POVs in the later books were a highlight for me - she is such a deluded head case that it's exceedingly entertaining. I don't know why they didn't do a literal interpretation on the show other than there's seems to be a suggestion that Lena Headey was too good to waste on a one sided portrayal.

But I don't agree with the suggestion that one dimensional = bad. Book Cersei is up there as one of the best villains in fiction that I've come across. A literal interpretation wouldn't have done Heady a disservice at all.

Greyfox

The White Wolf wrote: »

But I don't agree with the suggestion that one dimensional = bad. Book Cersei is up there as one of the best villains in fiction that I've come across. A literal interpretation wouldn't have done Heady a disservice at all.

Book Cersei is a good villian at best and for me 1 dimensional is bad. TV Cersei is one of fictions greatest villians ever and thats all about what the magnificent Lena Heady does to elevate the character. She brings humour to the character with her mannerisms and during the walk of shame most people had empathy for her.

The White Wolf

Greyfox wrote: »

Book Cersei is a good villian at best and for me 1 dimensional is bad. TV Cersei is one of fictions greatest villians ever and thats all about what the magnificent Lena Heady does to elevate the character. She brings humour to the character with her mannerisms and during the walk of shame most people had empathy for her.

That's the thing though in that I don't want to feel empathy for her. I'd compare it to Coppola's portrayal of Dracula in 1992 where he wanted us to feel sorry for this tragic character who feeds babies with a maniacal and sick laugh to his brides.

I understand it works for some but even at her most vulnerable I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for show Cersei even in the walk of shame; something entirely her own doing.

RobbingBandit

Book Cersei doesn't have the gall to kill the septas who put her on the walk of shame or to take on the might of the high septon. But unlike the on screen version to our knowledge two of her three children still live disfigured and much younger than the on screen representation of their characters so the comparison isn't really possible.

Book Cersei will do evil things in the final book/books if they're ever finished but it will not compare to on screen Cersei she is a cold calculated **** as the hound would say.

The White Wolf

The White Wolf wrote: »

That's the thing though in that I don't want to feel empathy for her. I'd compare it to Coppola's portrayal of Dracula in 1992 where he wanted us to feel sorry for this tragic character who feeds babies with a maniacal and sick laugh to his brides.

I understand it works for some but even at her most vulnerable I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for show Cersei even in the walk of shame; something entirely her own doing.

How did you feel when she poisoned the daughter of your one from Dorne as revenge for them killing her daughter?

"You go Cersei. Poison that bitch." is all I was thinking.

Greyfox

Deleted User wrote: »

"You go Cersei. Poison that bitch." is all I was thinking.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. This and the sweet revenge on the high sparrow makes me like her character all the more. When i recently rewatched S1 I forgot how brilliant that scene is when Cersei asks what Lyanna was like, it's easy to forget how badly Robert treated her and this is a good motivation for her character.

Paddy Cow

Greyfox wrote: »

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. This and the sweet revenge on the high sparrow makes me like her character all the more. When i recently rewatched S1 I forgot how brilliant that scene is when Cersei asks what Lyanna was like, it's easy to forget how badly Robert treated her and this is a good motivation for her character.

Robert treated her badly but he didn't make her that way. The evil bitch poisoned her first child because Robert was the father.

The White Wolf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How did you feel when she poisoned the daughter of your one from Dorne as revenge for them killing her daughter?

"You go Cersei. Poison that bitch." is all I was thinking.

Can't remember specifics but I think the main feeling was indifference. Mycrella was an innocent and Ellaria paid for her bloodlust....but as a personal victory for Cersei I got no satisfaction.

Speaking of Ellaria....I've been reading over some of my favourite chapters lately (have all the ebooks so it's easy)....that's a multi faceted character they turned into a complete one note one on the show. Interesting comparison to Cersei.

Wailin

What ever happened to the character Daario Naharis in the show? Also, John's direwolf? Can't remember the last time he was seen.

Paddy Cow

Wailin wrote: »

What ever happened to the character Daario Naharis in the show? Also, John's direwolf? Can't remember the last time he was seen.

Dany and Daario were lovers and she knew she couldn't bring him to Westeros so she left him to rule in her stead.

Ghost hasn't really featured since Jon was resurrected from the dead. The cgi budget is spent on dragons, not direwolves.

Riddle101

Wailin wrote: »

What ever happened to the character Daario Naharis in the show? Also, John's direwolf? Can't remember the last time he was seen.

Daario was left behind in Mereen to keep the peace. I also think Tyrion convinced Daenerys not to bring him with her because it wouldn't look right for Daenerys to bring a paramore with her, especially a low born sellsword like Daario. If she is to sit the Iron Throne she could not marry him, and Daario would only be a distraction.

As for Ghost. He's bound to appear eventually.

mooseknunkle

Wailin wrote: »

What ever happened to the character Daario Naharis in the show? Also, John's direwolf? Can't remember the last time he was seen.

One of the producers has said Ghost will feature heavily in one of the episodes

mooseknunkle

mooseknunkle wrote: »

_____

This should be spoilered.

I'm all for no spoilers for what has happened in the show, but plenty of us avoid all the interviews and everything because of this type of information.

mooseknunkle

Bit late now seen as you read and replied to it.

mooseknunkle

mooseknunkle wrote: »

Bit late now seen as you read and replied to it.

Good point. I've edited it.

rawn

Is there any explanation of where the Dornish army is? I know the Sandsnakes are dead and Ellaria captured, but that doesn't mean the entire Dornish army are just like, welp that's that... They are allied with Danearys after all. I mean was there specifically an explanation in the show that I may have missed?

Liam O

rawn wrote: »

Is there any explanation of where the Dornish army is? I know the Sandsnakes are dead and Ellaria captured, but that doesn't mean the entire Dornish army are just like, welp that's that... They are allied with Danearys after all. I mean was there specifically an explanation in the show that I may have missed?

You could say that about a lot of the armies and people in the show. The vacuums of power have not really been filled in the likes of Storms End, Highgarden, Dorne or Riverrun.

leggo

Yara was ferrying the Dornish army too right? And only a few ships survived. I imagine, if you had to explain, it’d be that the Ironborn would be used to fighting at sea so that’d explain why some of their fighters survived.

Are we assume that Euron killed every last one? No, doubtful, but enough to render them null to the main plot as it winds down without anyone to lead them in fighting for someone else’s cause.

storker

Deleted User wrote: »

I think I remember from years ago that a dragon picks its rider,

Wasn't that the flying creatures in Avatar?

Dave_The_Sheep

storker wrote: »

Wasn't that the flying creatures in Avatar?

Pretty sure it's not a unique story point in a lot of tales.

Paddy Cow

rawn wrote: »

Is there any explanation of where the Dornish army is? I know the Sandsnakes are dead and Ellaria captured, but that doesn't mean the entire Dornish army are just like, welp that's that... They are allied with Danearys after all. I mean was there specifically an explanation in the show that I may have missed?

The writing has been really poor the last 2-3 seasons and there are a lot of things that don't make sense that the show doesn't address, which they're probably hoping we ignore to find out how the story ends. One thing that stands out for me is how empty Cersei's court is. Apart from Qyborn, she doesn't seem to have a council. That means no hand, no master of coin, no master of ships etc. There is no way she can do all that herself. Plus how is she keeping control of the city? I rewatched S1 last week and there was an episode where the head of the city guard approached Ned to ask for more men because the tourney had brought loads more people into the city and crime was rising. Little details like that is what made the first few seasons so realistic.

There is no way Cersei could hold the throne with just Qyborn as her advisor. There is always someone opportunistic waiting in the wings to take over. Tywin's father nearly ran his house into the ground until Tywin took over and his ruthlessness made everyone fear him. Cersei has no real claim to the throne but at this stage I'm beyond caring about inconsistencies and just want to see who lives and who dies!