Ending of a tenancy

Moszat

Hi, anyone can advice me in this situation. In Feb the landlord sent an email termination notice. No written and signed notice was received. Reason, he will move back from UK and wants to take the property back giving 8 weeks to leave. We have lived in for about two and half years here. We asked flexibility and longer term 3 months knowing situation of rental market. Finally he gave 10 weeks. We found last week a house which is okay, but it can be vacated only at beginning of May because it still occupied until. We took the house anyway and paid deposit because no other proper one was available. Date of move is two weeks over the 10 weeks that landlord wished. He was not happy because he wanted to re-take his house at that date he had wanted. He wants us to leave anyway and does not compromise. What is the best to do in this situation? Thanks

voluntary

You have two options basically.

1. Comply with his non legally binding email / telephone notice, leave on 10th week, spend 10 days in a hotel, pay for storage to keep your belongings.

or...

2. You tell the LL that you're moving out on the date of your choosing, you can mention that the email notice isn't recognized as valid in this country anyway.

dennyk

It really depends on how much of a fuss you want to kick up with the landlord. Email is not a permitted method of delivery for a notice of termination, so until you have received a hard copy written notice which meets all of the RTB requirements, you don't legally have to leave. You are within your rights to remain in the property until a valid notice is served and the legally required notice period has elapsed.

That said, if you do this, the landlord will no doubt be unhappy and there's always a chance he might take action against you; refusing to refund your deposit (which might happen anyway), harassing you and attempting to access the property, or even illegally evicting you by changing the locks while you're away (and possibly damaging or stealing your belongings in the process). The chances aren't all that high, and none of these things are legal, of course, so they would not stand up to a legal challenge, but they would no doubt be a pain in the arse to deal with while you're also trying to arrange a move, so it is a bit of a risk. And of course you can forget about ever getting a reference from this landlord in the future (but you've already secured a new place, so that's not a big deal, really). However, if those things don't happen, it'd be a lot smoother and cheaper for you than having to arrange a hotel and storage for two weeks.

Dav010

Maybe because he lives abroad he is clueless about the implications of an illegal eviction. He should be damn glad that you are leaving without fuss and the extra two weeks are a minor inconvenience for him. Provided it is no too much trouble for you as you have found another place, I would send him an email informing him that the notice is invalid but that you will leave after the extra two weeks and that he had better hand over your deposit in full immediately. Tell him if this is not agreeable, you are happy to wait for a valid notice to be served.

FishOnABike

The requirements for terminating a tenancy are explained on the Residential Tenancy Board's website
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/ending-a-tenancy/sample-notices-of-termination/

Your landlord needs to comply with all the requirements in terminating your tenancy.

If you have found somewhere else and intend moving out of your current accommodation you also need to comply with your obligations as s tenant. If you have not received a valid notice of termination from your landlord this might include you giving the landlord notice. For tenancies between 2 and 3 years the notice period for either party is 56 days (not including the day the notice is served).

It might be worth getting some advice whether it is better for you to
Issue your own notice, to tie in with when you move into your new accommodation
or
Advise the landlord the notice received is not valid and request valid notice - the turnaround time should probably bring you up to your intended moving date anyway. If it brought it past your intended moving date you might agree with the landlord to move out on that date.

voluntary

Just curious. How do you hand over a written notice so it's valid? How do you prove a valid notice has been handed over?

Dav010

voluntary wrote: »

Just curious. How do you hand over a written notice so it's valid? How do you prove a valid notice has been handed over?

Seriously?

You can ring the doorbell and hand it over, send it registered post, the Courts have allowed eviction notices to be pinned to the front gate, you could record yourself on your phone putting it through the letterbox or bring a witness to observe you putting it in the letterbox.

voluntary

Dav010 wrote: »

Seriously?

You can ring the doorbell and hand it over, send it registered post, the Courts have allowed eviction notices to be pinned to the front gate, you could record yourself on your phone putting it through the letterbox or bring a witness to observe you putting it in the letterbox.

You record putting an envelope into a letterbox? How do you prove what's inside the envelope? Genuine question. What if other party states he indeed received the registered mail, but there was no notice inside, but Christmas card with wishes? What if the other party sends you an empty envelope stating later there was a valid notice enclosed?

Any chance I can send an empty envelope by registered post to you then claiming there was a letter inside?

I guess it's easier to hand over a notice to a tenant, than the vice versa - hand it over to a landlord, especially that he's living abroad.

.

Dav010

voluntary wrote: »

You record putting an envelope into a letterbox? How do you prove what's inside the envelope? Genuine question. What if other party states he indeed received the registered mail, but there was no notice inside, but Christmas card with wishes? What if the other party sends you an empty envelope stating later there was a valid notice enclosed?

Any chance I can send an empty envelope by registered post to you then claiming there was a letter inside?

I guess it's easier to hand over a notice to a tenant, than the vice versa - hand it over to a landlord, especially that he's living abroad.

.

The RTB/court would have to weigh up the balance of probability. Why would someone post an empty envelope? At the risk of pointing out the obvious, summonses, jury duty letters, important docs etc are posted every single day, I doubt a claim that the envelope was empty is given much weight.

voluntary

Dav010 wrote: »

The RTB/court would have to weigh up the balance of probability. Why would someone post an empty envelope? At the risk of pointing out the obvious, summonses, jury duty letters, important docs etc are posted every single day, I doubt a claim that the envelope was empty is given much weight.

I could think about some reasons why someone would send an empty envelope. You could send it once and then claim there was a valid notice enclosed with whatever dates or terms you decide later. I could think about other reasons too.

Let's say a tenant is buying a house himself but doesn't know the date when he may get the keys. It may happen in 1 month or in 6 months.
He could then send an empty envelope by registered post to his LL and then claim on the content at some later stage when he figures out what date he needs to move out. Just a sample scenario.

Dav010

voluntary wrote: »

I could think about some reasons why someone would send an empty envelope. You could send it once and then claim there was a valid notice enclosed with whatever dates or terms you decide later. I could think about other reasons too.

Let's say a tenant is buying a house himself but doesn't know the date when he may get the keys. It may happen in 1 months or in 6 months.
He could then send an empty envelope by registered post to his LL and then claim on the content at some later stage when he figures out what date he needs to move out. Just a sample scenario.

Wow.

Gumbo

voluntary wrote: »

Just curious. How do you hand over a written notice so it's valid? How do you prove a valid notice has been handed over?

You both meet and both sign a letter stating it was received. That’s what I done in the past.

Sarn

voluntary wrote: »

I could think about some reasons why someone would send an empty envelope. You could send it once and then claim there was a valid notice enclosed with whatever dates or terms you decide later. I could think about other reasons too.

Let's say a tenant is buying a house himself but doesn't know the date when he may get the keys. It may happen in 1 month or in 6 months.
He could then send an empty envelope by registered post to his LL and then claim on the content at some later stage when he figures out what date he needs to move out. Just a sample scenario.

If I received an empty envelope I would ensure that I communicated back in writing enquiring did they forget to include something or a thank you for the Christmas card etc.

Saying that, how would I know who it came from?

Moszat

Thanks for everybody good advices. ��

GGTrek

kceire wrote: »

You both meet and both sign a letter stating it was received. That’s what I done in the past.

This only works if the tenant is cooperative.


I suggest to read these posts on a practical way to serve a notice that would be very difficult to challenge at the RTB:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showpost.php?p=104352314&postcount=4
and relative case law at the High Court on how to serve notice:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104393183&postcount=1

GGTrek

voluntary wrote: »

I could think about some reasons why someone would send an empty envelope. You could send it once and then claim there was a valid notice enclosed with whatever dates or terms you decide later. I could think about other reasons too.

Let's say a tenant is buying a house himself but doesn't know the date when he may get the keys. It may happen in 1 month or in 6 months.
He could then send an empty envelope by registered post to his LL and then claim on the content at some later stage when he figures out what date he needs to move out. Just a sample scenario.

An experienced landlord or property manager never accepts a letter from a tenant, termination notice matters should be dealt always personally and with witness present. Even if you believe the tenant is cooperative.


Imagine that the empty envelope excuse was used by the tax authorities in some latin countries in the 80s to hinder tax appeals, so what professionals (lawyers/accountants/...) did was folding the letter in half, staple it and send it through registered post with no envelope in order to force the tax employees to show what they had actually received in their evidence at the tax appeals commission. I remember my father and my uncle doing it quite often in their professional capacity due to the bad faith of the tax employees. However their preferred method of delivery was always personal and getting a copy of all the documents delivered stamped by the tax employees (sometimes this was not possible due to the distance of some tax offices).


Serving legal documents can be a very tricky affair and good faith is not part of it.

voluntary

kceire wrote: »

You both meet and both sign a letter stating it was received. That’s what I done in the past.

Well, that's assuming mutual cooperation and agreement. I'm thinking about a scenario where one party doesn't want to cooperate / doesn't want that notice.

voluntary

GGTrek wrote: »

This only works if the tenant is cooperative.


I suggest to read these posts on a practical way to serve a notice that would be very difficult to challenge at the RTB:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin//showpost.php?p=104352314&postcount=4
and relative case law at the High Court on how to serve notice:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104393183&postcount=1

That's a good info. Thanks for posting.

voluntary

GGTrek wrote: »

An experienced landlord or property manager never accepts a letter from a tenant, termination notice matters should be dealt always personally and with witness present. Even if you believe the tenant is cooperative.


Imagine that the empty envelope excuse was used by the tax authorities in some latin countries in the 80s to hinder tax appeals, so what professionals (lawyers/accountants/...) did was folding the letter in half, staple it and send it through registered post with no envelope in order to force the tax employees to show what they had actually received in their evidence at the tax appeals commission. I remember my father and my uncle doing it quite often in their professional capacity due to the bad faith of the tax employees. However their preferred method of delivery was always personal and getting a copy of all the documents delivered stamped by the tax employees (sometimes this was not possible due to the distance of some tax offices).


Serving legal documents can be a very tricky affair and good faith is not part of it.

That's smart. Write on the actual envelope itself with a stamp. Really good one.

4ensic15

This case contains an an extensive discussion of service.
https://www.rtb.ie/documents/TR0317-002243/TR0317-002243-DR1216-31142%20Report.pdf